AHC: Peerless Air Ministry

[sonofpegasus]

Moving aircrews and planes not ground crews would need a seismic change in the make up of the RAF. If ground crew are assigned to the base and the Squadron contains just it's pilots and staff officers that might work.
If the RAF take a lesson from the FAA (heaven forbid!) where the aircraft handlers etc are part of the ships crew then you might have a driver for a pod.
ITTL the PAM, have by the BoB four different types of effective day fighter in service and of those you have two, Hurricane and Spitfire, that have different marks with very different capabilities in service. AIPE ITTL 11 and 12 group will have priority for the Cannon armed fighters. 10 and 13 group will have a mixture of MG and Cannon fighters and 13 group in particular will have a high percentage of OTU's.
God help X Fliegercorps from Norway if they still bumble across from Norway, Not only will the RDF chain be more effective but there are at least some cannon armed fighters in the north. Oh! also there is the pesky FAA with their cannon armed aircraft doing double duty as OTU's and local defence for Scapa and Rosythe Dockyard!!!

 

[A_Saroc]

Moving aircrews and planes not ground crews would need a seismic change in the make up of the RAF. If ground crew are assigned to the base and the Squadron contains just it's pilots and staff officers that might work.
If the RAF take a lesson from the FAA (heaven forbid!) where the aircraft handlers etc are part of the ships crew then you might have a driver for a pod.
ITTL the PAM, have by the BoB four different types of effective day fighter in service and of those you have two, Hurricane and Spitfire, that have different marks with very different capabilities in service. AIPE ITTL 11 and 12 group will have priority for the Cannon armed fighters. 10 and 13 group will have a mixture of MG and Cannon fighters and 13 group in particular will have a high percentage of OTU's.
God help X Fliegercorps from Norway if they still bumble across from Norway, Not only will the RDF chain be more effective but there are at least some cannon armed fighters in the north. Oh! also there is the pesky FAA with their cannon armed aircraft doing double duty as OTU's and local defence for Scapa and Rosythe Dockyard!!!

They could cover both the vital Rosyth & Clyde Dockyards from HMS Gannet (RNAS Prestwick) if it was built a couple of years early (OTL it was built in 1940).

 

[sonofpegasus]

"They could cover both the vital Rosyth & Clyde Dockyards from HMS Gannet (RNAS Prestwick) if it was built a couple of years early (OTL it was built in 1940)."
in the PAN ATL, quite probably the FAA would be setting up new air stations from 1937 and Sir Arthur Dowding would with his Scottish roots ensure that there were some to cover RN assets in his homeland.

 

[phx1138]

Moving aircrews and planes not ground crews would need a seismic change in the make up of the RAF. If ground crew are assigned to the base and the Squadron contains just it's pilots and staff officers that might work.

If the RAF take a lesson from the FAA (heaven forbid!) where the aircraft handlers etc are part of the ships crew then you might have a driver for a pod.

Well, you've got just about 4yr from POD to BoB, so maybe somebody has a brainwave. Close(r?) contact with FAA might do the trick.

TTL 11 and 12 group will have priority for the Cannon armed fighters. 10 and 13 group will have a mixture of MG and Cannon fighters and 13 group in particular will have a high percentage of OTU's.

The cannon-armed fighters will spike German losses pretty seriously. I remain concerned about effectiveness, tho. Mixing Spits & Hurris IMO complicates everything needlessly.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

New title: AHC: Peerless Air Ministry

Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister (later Lord, then Earl Swinton) is your stooge. He can turn down the peerage (for political capital) and make the ministry do your bidding. Can you undo ALL the mistakes and poor choices of the ministry June 1935 - September 1939?

He is a lawyer of some intellect and has ministerial experience in Trade, Colonies and earlier in National Service. Rose to Major during the Great War and served with Winston Churchill for a time.

Let us say you have him in your pocket. Bribery, blackmail, brainwashing, whatever. You only have knowledge available at the time to work from, but you can cherry pick the right knowledge given a believable excuse.

Bonus if he stays on throughout WW2 and has further impact. Keep within his brief and plausible history for the period.

The following is a copy that I made from National Archives File Air 2.2775 RAF Squadrons Monthly Statement of Strength 1933-36. It is the closest I have for the strength of the RAF when Sir Philip Cunliffe-Lister became Secretary of State for Air.

Note
1) In the FAA sections the Spotter Reconnaissance aircraft includes catapult aircraft and they were not shown separately until the return for 1st December 1935.
2) The expansion scheme referred to in Note 2 is Scheme A, which was: proposed in November 1933; approved by the Cabinet on 18th July 1934 and scheduled for completion on 1st April 1935.
3) However, Scheme A was about to be superseded by Scheme C. This was proposed in April 1935 and approved by the Cabinet on 21st May 1935. This scheme was to increase the FAA to 2,017 first-line aircraft in the equivalent of 166½ squadrons by 31st March 1939 (except for the parts that were to be completed by 31st March 1937).

 

[Simon]

The FC1 with its 4 engines is going to be at a disadvantage compared to the DC3 with its two, mind you we have the Monarch engine.

Going purely by size it looks more comparable to the DC-4.

As I understand it, both would have suffered from the wingspar going through the passenger compartment and creating a hump which split it in two.

Would it? Well that's a bit of a bugger.

Lend-Lease did not come into effect until 1941.

Yes, sorry, I should have been clearer in that I was wondering in general rather than just this specific situation. It's something that's been at the back of my mind since reading some books like The Foresight War or threads on the forum. One of these days I need to track down how many, if any, Liberty or Victory ships were transferred to the UK via Lend-Lease.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Due to their different capabilities certainly 11 group found the Hurricane and Spitfire combination beneficial, as a dog fighter the Spitfire was better at holding off the Luftwaffe fighter escort. The Hurricane was a steady gun platform and better at taking down the bombers. In 1940 give both aircraft a pair of working reliable 20mm cannon and the Luftwaffe is going to suffer far greater casualties.

 

[Driftless]

With more fighters on hand and in the works by the end of 1939, might more be despatched to France, maybe even Norway? Having a sufficient number of qualified replacement pilots in the queue probably is the greater risk.

*edit* The cannon armed fighters are more likely to bring down German planes in greater numbers, but also to increase the loss of skilled Luftwaffe crews.

 

[A_Saroc]

With more fighters on hand and in the works by the end of 1939, might more be despatched to France, maybe even Norway? Having a sufficient number of qualified replacement pilots in the queue probably is the greater risk.

*edit* The cannon armed fighters are more likely to bring down German planes in greater numbers, but also to increase the loss of skilled Luftwaffe crews.

Give them some FAA planes for navigation and the Hurricane can be ferried to Norway.

 

[HMS Audacious]

Are we going to see the gloster goshawk

 

[sonofpegasus]

Sorry No, I traded it for the Reaper and had Folland design a follow on for the FAA.

 

[A_Saroc]

Sorry No, I traded it for the Reaper and had Folland design a follow on for the FAA.

Yeah but the next FAA plane in your TL is Folland's design/re-design based on the Gloster F.5/34 (the Goshawk/Spartan). Lets hope that Folland goes on to design the Gnat.

 

[sonofpegasus]

In the Peerless Air Ministry, the Gloster F5/34 is still born due to amongst other things being underpowered and slow in development. Follond designs the Follond Fulmar based on his Gloster F5/34 design but using a 1050hp Alvis Pelides and incorporating folding wings. tail hook and cannon from the start. The follow on design will be built around the more powerful Alvis Alcides/Bristol Hercules engines. The Gnat was not designed by Follond but by Petter once he had joined Follond Aircraft after leaving Westlands.

 

[Astrodragon]

In the Peerless Air Ministry, the Gloster F5/34 is still born due to amongst other things being underpowered and slow in development. Follond designs the Follond Fulmar based on his Gloster F5/34 design but using a 1050hp Alvis Pelides and incorporating folding wings. tail hook and cannon from the start. The follow on design will be built around the more powerful Alvis Alcides/Bristol Hercules engines. The Gnat was not designed by Follond but by Petter once he had joined Follond Aircraft after leaving Westlands.

Actually the mythical Gloster Goshawk is basically the above plane. It was NOT the F5/34, it was a heavier plane designed for the FAA and with a more powerful engine. So basically the 'new' Folland Fulmar.
Given the requirements, its not really surprising they are very similar in concept.

 

[sonofpegasus]

As a self appointed disciple of the 'Astrodragon' not surprising at all!

 

[Driftless]

Sorry No, I traded it for the Reaper and had Folland design a follow on for the FAA.

If I got the link correct.....

A series of Just Leo's "doodles" on Folland design possibilities. (Page 3 - post#58)

 

[sonofpegasus]

Once more dipping into the late 'JustLeo's' wonderful archive

For the PAN TL the Follond Fulmar would look like the fighter shown top left. With it's successor looking like the one portrayed bottom center.

 

[Simon]

The cannon armed fighters are more likely to bring down German planes in greater numbers, but also to increase the loss of skilled Luftwaffe crews.

Depends on how committed the Luftwaffe command are - at the end of the day they can bring an immediate stop to, or at least greatly reduce, the losses by simply suspending operations. If they suffer losses at a faster rate than in our timeline then I'd expect them to call off the Battle of Britain sooner and therefore balance things out. Before then any German pilots that are shot down and survive will most likely be released on France's surrender as happened.

 

[phx1138]

nothing more than a flying club for upper class toffs

That was Fighter Command, right thru the BoB.

Bomber Command was actually much more egalitarian, what with needing door gunners & such.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Depends on how committed the Luftwaffe command are - at the end of the day they can bring an immediate stop to, or at least greatly reduce, the losses by simply suspending operations. If they suffer losses at a faster rate than in our timeline then I'd expect them to call off the Battle of Britain sooner and therefore balance things out. Before then any German pilots that are shot down and survive will most likely be released on France's surrender as happened.

Yes and a higher loss rate in the Blitz might make the Luftwaffe abandon that campaign earlier too.

However, an earlier end to the Battle of Britain also means a reduction in British fighter pilot casualties, which might allow the formation of a few more fighter squadrons in the autumn of 1940 to reinforce the RAF in the Mediterranean and Middle East.

An earlier end to the Bltiz would mean less death and destruction. It might also mean an increase in British military production between September 1940 and May 1941.