Teddy Roosevelt seems to punch any and all pre-butterflies out of existence.
America's Silver Era, The Story of William Jennings Bryan
- Thread starter CELTICEMPIRE
- Start date
I think you mean 'the writers' rather than TR in this case as well as many others.
As you will see in future updates, people will find ways around it.
That just how it unfolds!
The Catholic vote in urban centers would go decisively Democratic if President Roosevelt were to do those Civil Rights Acts (Remember the 1863 draft riots). They viewed African Americans as their primary economic rival. When you stated that the Democratic Party gained many seats, was this primarily in urban centers?
Death had to come for Teddy in his sleep, cause if he were awake there would have been a fight
If he felt his policies we're continued by President Roosevelt, why would Bryan feel any need to return into politics, especially as a simple Senator? He would appear as partially breaking his promise, since I imagine the public felt by renouncing of running again for president he completely renounced of returning to politics. It simply doesn't make any sense for me that Bryan would return as Senator just to back Roosevelt in Congress, when he would need backing from the leading Democrats in office and Bryan could more simply persuade them with his status as a former President. Also, quote from his Presidential campaign of 1908 focuses from Wikipedia:
This brings me to my second point, why would the Democrats accept someone running for them just to support Roosevelt in Congress? As Progessive as they both were, the Democrats still needed to propose something different than Roosevelt. In conclusion, the only way I could see Bryan return to politics is if he felt that things went bad enough for America that he would be the only person able to save it and ran for President again, which is not totally implausible since he ran in 1908 after deciding not to run in 1904, showing his strong ambition even after two consecutive defeats. Perhaps you will be able to give me a former President example of running for Congress after finishing their term. Sorry if I seem to you too insistent, but I still would love to see a Bryan vs. Roosevelt race for office.
On a related note, would Bryan still be employed by the Chautauqua circuit or Social Gospel, since I think he wouldn't still found his own newspaper as a former President.
Also, I looked a little bit on No Assasination of McKinley threads and they pretty much convinced me that the Republican establishment would never have supported Roosevelt for presidency and he was expected to be silenced by being nominated VP. I have to say that it would have been cool if he started his Progressive Party on his one. Also, if he wasn't selected as VP candidate in 1900 why he renounced the Governorship of New York to become a simple Representative and not at least a Senator?
This brings me to my second point, why would the Democrats accept someone running for them just to support Roosevelt in Congress? As Progessive as they both were, the Democrats still needed to propose something different than Roosevelt. In conclusion, the only way I could see Bryan return to politics is if he felt that things went bad enough for America that he would be the only person able to save it and ran for President again, which is not totally implausible since he ran in 1908 after deciding not to run in 1904, showing his strong ambition even after two consecutive defeats. Perhaps you will be able to give me a former President example of running for Congress after finishing their term. Sorry if I seem to you too insistent, but I still would love to see a Bryan vs. Roosevelt race for office.
On a related note, would Bryan still be employed by the Chautauqua circuit or Social Gospel, since I think he wouldn't still found his own newspaper as a former President.
Also, I looked a little bit on No Assasination of McKinley threads and they pretty much convinced me that the Republican establishment would never have supported Roosevelt for presidency and he was expected to be silenced by being nominated VP. I have to say that it would have been cool if he started his Progressive Party on his one. Also, if he wasn't selected as VP candidate in 1900 why he renounced the Governorship of New York to become a simple Representative and not at least a Senator?
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Partially. It was a mix of that along with the consolidation of Democratic control of the South and border states. Basically most of the Republicans in the upper South got kicked out while the remaining Populist elected officials in Alabama and Georgia were also given the boot.
Bryan never actually said he was retiring from politics. He simply said no to running for President in 1908. Also remember that this TL is supposed to be written with hindsight, with information that people in TTL 2017 would have access to but that people in TTL 1910 wouldn't. Bryan wouldn't actually tell people that he was running to support Roosevelt, besides those close to him. And after Bryan dies, that kind of information would eventually be learned. Bryan has been giving speeches on issues he cares about, and that will be covered in a later chapter.
On Roosevelt, he never became governor of New York, but he still served in the Spanish-American War. He and Robert La Follette became informal leaders of the progressive Republicans in Congress. After La Follette took a break from politics, that honor went mostly to Roosevelt. IMO, considering TR's personality and style, its hard to see him not doing great things.
Ah yes. I meant to include the border states. So essentially the Upper South and Catholic neighborhoods return to their Democratic masters, ready for racial hatred against African Americans. Wonderful.
Chapter XIX, Pitchfork Ben
For the first time in decades, the Republican nomination was not seriously contested. Incumbent President Theodore Roosevelt was easily renominated. Things were different in the Democratic Convention at Kansas City. The election of 1908 had shown the party that they couldn’t just sweep the phenomenon of populism under the rug. Gone were the days of the Bourbon Democrats, and even most Northeasterners realized this. Ohio native Tom Johnson, House Speaker from 1897-1903 was considered a strong contender. South Carolina Senator Ben Tillman also had widespread support. 1904 Vice Presidential nominee and former Maryland Governor John W. Smith was also a popular figure. There was also North Dakota Senator John Burke of North Dakota, who advertised himself as the man who could bring the West back into the fold. As always, there were various favorite sons as well. Former President William Jennings Bryan, to the dismay of some, chose not to run.
(Tom Loftin Johnson)
Most thought that the Democrats would nominate Tom Johnson, the House Speaker who presided over many of President Bryan’s signature achievements. But soon it became apparent that Ben Tillman was stealing the show. He came in first place on the first ballot, and it wasn’t even close. On the second ballot he won a clear majority. Johnson died not long after the convention. While Tillman ran a populist campaign, presenting himself as the champion of the common man, the major reason that he had so much support was racial resentment. The half-hearted attempts at winning over black voters by Bryan and Dewey would not be pursued by Tillman. Indeed, compared to Tillman, those two would be considered civil rights activists. While the problem with earlier Democrats was that they didn’t do anything about the horrific treatment of blacks in the South (and other parts of the country as well), Tillman actively supported the most heinous acts of racist violence. For Vice President, Charles W. Bryan was the favorite, but he withdrew his name from consideration at the convention, instead opting to pursue a House seat. Thus, Senator Woodrow Wilson of New Jersey was selected as Tillman’s running mate.
(Left: Ben Tillman, Right: Woodrow Wilson)
While many think of racism as something exclusive to the areas of the former Confederacy and Border States, that was not the case in 1912 nor is it the case today. There was no shortage of people north of the Mason-Dixon Line who agreed with white supremacists. In the North and West, Jews, Asians, immigrants, and others were despised by a significant portion of the population. Thus there were plenty of Northerners who were more than happy to vote for Ben Tillman. There were other areas of disagreement between Tillman and Roosevelt to be sure, mainly on tariffs and some other minor issues, but race issues were clearly at the forefront of the 1912 election. While some Democrats tried to put a peace plank in the platform, they were unsuccessful. This left Eugene Debs as the only candidate opposing the deployment of US troops in the Philippines.
The Socialists made gains this year as they surpassed 5% of the vote. The Socialist Labor Party Presidential nominees wouldn’t dip below this number until the 1930s. The party also continued to make gains at the local level, mostly in the West and Midwest. Eugene Debs’ running mate was state representative Emil Seidel. The Populist Party also ran a candidate. 1908 nominee Thomas Watson lost his Senate seat and wasn’t under consideration for nomination. The party decided to go with newspaper editor William Randolph Hearst of New York. His running mate was US Representative and former governor Frank Steunenberg of Idaho. The election of 1912 would be the last time that the Populists ran a candidate for president.
(William Randolph Hearst)
Theodore Roosevelt was still popular, despite backlash against his support for civil rights. The economy was doing well and American casualties in the Philippines were few. Roosevelt was able to cruise to victory quite comfortably as a result. The results were closer than they were in 1908, however. The lower Midwest, New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts saw significant swings to the Democrats. The states of New Jersey and Indiana went into the Democratic column, but they were very close. Parts of New England and the Upper Midwest saw swings towards the Republicans. The Western States were also uncertain, but in the end Roosevelt won the majority of them. Tillman was able to outperform Dewey in this region, picking up Colorado and Montana, but losing Utah to Hearst.
-Excerpt from America's Silver Age, Edward S. Scott, Patriot Publishers, 2017.
https://uselectionatlas.org/TOOLS/g...A=1;12;6&WA=2;7;4&WV=1;8;4&WI=2;13;5&WY=2;3;4
Theodore Roosevelt (R-NY)/Leonard Wood (R-NH), 6,478,004 votes (45.94%), 293 Electoral Votes
Benjamin Tillman (D-SC)/Woodrow Wilson (D-NJ), 6,111,378 votes (43.34%), 234 Electoral Votes
Eugene Debs (S-IN)/Emil Seidel (S-WI), 706,461 votes (5.01%), 0 Electoral Votes
William Randolph Hearst (P-NY)/Frank Steunenberg (P-ID), 554,170 votes (3.93%), 4 Electoral Votes
Others[1], 250,998 votes (1.78%), 0 Electoral Votes
1: Mostly Prohibition Party.
(Tom Loftin Johnson)
Most thought that the Democrats would nominate Tom Johnson, the House Speaker who presided over many of President Bryan’s signature achievements. But soon it became apparent that Ben Tillman was stealing the show. He came in first place on the first ballot, and it wasn’t even close. On the second ballot he won a clear majority. Johnson died not long after the convention. While Tillman ran a populist campaign, presenting himself as the champion of the common man, the major reason that he had so much support was racial resentment. The half-hearted attempts at winning over black voters by Bryan and Dewey would not be pursued by Tillman. Indeed, compared to Tillman, those two would be considered civil rights activists. While the problem with earlier Democrats was that they didn’t do anything about the horrific treatment of blacks in the South (and other parts of the country as well), Tillman actively supported the most heinous acts of racist violence. For Vice President, Charles W. Bryan was the favorite, but he withdrew his name from consideration at the convention, instead opting to pursue a House seat. Thus, Senator Woodrow Wilson of New Jersey was selected as Tillman’s running mate.
(Left: Ben Tillman, Right: Woodrow Wilson)
While many think of racism as something exclusive to the areas of the former Confederacy and Border States, that was not the case in 1912 nor is it the case today. There was no shortage of people north of the Mason-Dixon Line who agreed with white supremacists. In the North and West, Jews, Asians, immigrants, and others were despised by a significant portion of the population. Thus there were plenty of Northerners who were more than happy to vote for Ben Tillman. There were other areas of disagreement between Tillman and Roosevelt to be sure, mainly on tariffs and some other minor issues, but race issues were clearly at the forefront of the 1912 election. While some Democrats tried to put a peace plank in the platform, they were unsuccessful. This left Eugene Debs as the only candidate opposing the deployment of US troops in the Philippines.
The Socialists made gains this year as they surpassed 5% of the vote. The Socialist Labor Party Presidential nominees wouldn’t dip below this number until the 1930s. The party also continued to make gains at the local level, mostly in the West and Midwest. Eugene Debs’ running mate was state representative Emil Seidel. The Populist Party also ran a candidate. 1908 nominee Thomas Watson lost his Senate seat and wasn’t under consideration for nomination. The party decided to go with newspaper editor William Randolph Hearst of New York. His running mate was US Representative and former governor Frank Steunenberg of Idaho. The election of 1912 would be the last time that the Populists ran a candidate for president.
(William Randolph Hearst)
Theodore Roosevelt was still popular, despite backlash against his support for civil rights. The economy was doing well and American casualties in the Philippines were few. Roosevelt was able to cruise to victory quite comfortably as a result. The results were closer than they were in 1908, however. The lower Midwest, New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts saw significant swings to the Democrats. The states of New Jersey and Indiana went into the Democratic column, but they were very close. Parts of New England and the Upper Midwest saw swings towards the Republicans. The Western States were also uncertain, but in the end Roosevelt won the majority of them. Tillman was able to outperform Dewey in this region, picking up Colorado and Montana, but losing Utah to Hearst.
-Excerpt from America's Silver Age, Edward S. Scott, Patriot Publishers, 2017.
https://uselectionatlas.org/TOOLS/g...A=1;12;6&WA=2;7;4&WV=1;8;4&WI=2;13;5&WY=2;3;4
Theodore Roosevelt (R-NY)/Leonard Wood (R-NH), 6,478,004 votes (45.94%), 293 Electoral Votes
Benjamin Tillman (D-SC)/Woodrow Wilson (D-NJ), 6,111,378 votes (43.34%), 234 Electoral Votes
Eugene Debs (S-IN)/Emil Seidel (S-WI), 706,461 votes (5.01%), 0 Electoral Votes
William Randolph Hearst (P-NY)/Frank Steunenberg (P-ID), 554,170 votes (3.93%), 4 Electoral Votes
Others[1], 250,998 votes (1.78%), 0 Electoral Votes
1: Mostly Prohibition Party.
Next chapter is about China, then a chapter on Russia and the Ottoman Empire, after that we will return to Roosevelt's America. Then something important happens.
Yep, the assassination is butterflied away.
This TL is currently in the second of four parts. What's about to happen will end the second part of this TL.
.....hmmmmmm.
Roosevelt gets assassinated instead?
Md139115
Banned
Really?
Theodore Roosevelt get assasinated?
OTL, A man shot him in the chest and he just brushed it off as no big deal!
On this site, if anyone pulls out a Lewis or a Thompson and sprays him with a full clip, he’ll just put his glasses in his pocket, walk over, grab the gun, and beat the guy to within an inch of his life with it (picture Don Corleone crossed with Andrew Jackson)!
Chapter XX, New China
On February 13, 1903 general Dong Fuxiang surrendered at Lanzhou. This should have been the end of China’s civil war but it was not. The Yihequan, commanded by Cao Futian continued to fight. By 1903 they were increasingly resorting to guerilla warfare and scorched earth tactics. The Yihequan tried to avoid large-scale open combat with Qing forces. Much of the fighting after the fall of Lanzhou was characterized by Qing soldiers chasing rebels across Western China. Meanwhile, some officers and generals tried to negotiate with Russia, and began a retreat to the West, hoping to be received well once they entered Russian territory. They believed that a war between the Russian Empire and the Qing Dynasty was inevitable. When that happened, they hoped to be part of a pro-Russian government in the event of a Russian victory over China. Unfortunately for them, Tsar Nicholas II did not support this plan. They surrendered in the summer of 1903.
(Cao Futian)
Tibet became a battleground during the later months of the Lanzhou government’s existence. In late 1902 the 13th Dalai Lama, seeing the writing on the wall, declared his allegiance to the Kaifeng government. Pro-Lanzhou forces then arrested him. This caused a massive uprising against the Lanzhou government. The pro-Lanzhou forces retreated with the Dalai Lama to Qinghai. The pro-Lanzhou forces in Qinghai and Kham did not surrender after the fall of Lanzhou, as Yihequan fighters made an example of anyone who advocated laying down arms. They were decisively defeated at Yushu in April and at Golog in May. The Dalai Lama was at Golog and was freed with the fall of the city. The Southern anti-Qing forces made their final stand at Chengguan, which fell on July 1, 1903. The town was filled with the dead bodies of Yihequan, Qing soldiers, and the corpses of attempted deserters who were hung.
(Thubten Gyatso, 13th Dalai Lama)
In the North, Cao Futian and tens of thousands of Yihequan continued to harass the Qing army. Yihequan made their way into Mongolia and tried to stir up unrest in that region. The Mongols, by and large, were uninterested in joining the losing side. The Yihequan were unable to get very many Mongol recruits. An assault on Hohhot in the summer was easily repelled by Qing soldiers and locals. The Yihequan began to conscript Mongol villagers into their army. Many of these conscripts were used as cannon fodder. The Yihequan burned villages and killed livestock as the Qing army advanced. The Mongolian people became even further enraged at the Yihequan, and in December 1903 the citizens of Uliastai slaughtered the Yihequan fighters stationed there. Cao Futian then retreated to Xinjiang, where they still had some support left.
(Colorized image of anti-Yihequan Mongol fighter)
The Qing army developed a large and well-trained cavalry corps to chase down the remaining resistance. Cavalry played an important role in the vast steppes of Mongolia. Ethnic Mongols made up a large percentage of these mounted troops. Western China in these days had a feel similar to the cultural image of the Wild West. The Yihequan were like outlaws evading the authorities. The main objective for the government was to capture Cao Futian, alive or dead. A cavalry detachment opened fire with Cao Futian and a small group of Yihequan in January 1904, but they were defeated. Cao retreated even further into Xinjiang. The Qing army moved in to the province, securing most of the major urban areas in the spring of that year. But supplies were constantly being raided. In August of 1904, 15,000 Yihequan (the majority of their soldiers) were cornered at the town of Ili[1]. They ran out of ammunition and charged with swords and bayonets. They were mowed down by machine guns.
Most of the rest of the Yihequan were chased down by Qing cavalry. But Cao Futian continued to evade capture. He had escaped Xinjiang entirely and went into Gansu province. He and some of his men were aided by some Lanzhou loyalists who helped escape detection from the authorities. Someone eventually gave Cao’s location away to the military, and soon he was on the run again. He went to Xinjiang again, with 100 men, hoping to incite rebellion among the Muslim inhabitants. He was intercepted by a regiment of Qing cavalry outside Korla on December 15, 1905, and a fight ensued. After shots were fired, Cao’s men charged the Qing forces and it became a swordfight. Cao himself took down several Qing cavalrymen. But then he received a mortal wound from a lance carried by a Mongolian soldier. He died soon afterwards and the rest of his men surrendered. In 1906, the war was declared over, and Yihequan attacks became rare.
On November 13, 1903, the Guangxu emperor became a father. Consort Zhen bore him a son. He now had an heir to the throne. He named his son 趙政, Zhao Zheng. The birth of Zhao Zheng was the cause of great celebrations throughout China. Guangxu had become an extremely popular emperor for most Chinese. People had high hopes for the Guangxu Emperor. He also pardoned many former anti-Qing dissidents, and many of them returned to China. With peace coming in 1906, elections were held for a provisional government. The elections were a landslide for pro-reform candidates as most of those opposed to reform had fought on the losing side of the civil war. A constitution would be written and elections would be held again in 1910.
(Consort Zhen)
It was determined that the new Constitution should be modeled after that of the United States. Several American politicians, including former President William Jennings Bryan were sent to China to help. A bicameral legislature was established with a House of Representatives and a Senate. It worked much the same way as in the United States besides the fact that Senators had four year terms and were chosen by the provincial legislatures. Kang Youwei, from Guangdong province, became the first Prime Minister under the new constitution. A judicial branch was established as well. The executive branch was the emperor, who could veto any bill. At first, suffrage was restricted to men, but thanks to the tireless efforts of women like Qiu Jin, and eventual imperial support, women were eventually granted the right to vote.
(Kang Youwei)
For foreign relations, China had to be cautious. The Qing developed close relations with the United States during the presidencies of Bryan, Dewey, and Roosevelt. China also became somewhat friendly with Germany, and the Chinese army increasingly imitated that of Germany (while imitating Britain’s Navy). It was observed that there were three countries that could do the most to undermine Chinese sovereignty; Russia, Japan, and Britain. The Qing court determined that Russia had the worst intentions, followed by Japan, followed by Britain. In order to survive, China would need to play the major powers against each other. One day, the Guangxu Emperor hoped, China would become powerful enough to compete with the West and Japan on its own.
-Excerpt from Guangxu, Jiang Jieshi, Beijing Books, 1933.
1: Modern Day Yining
(Cao Futian)
Tibet became a battleground during the later months of the Lanzhou government’s existence. In late 1902 the 13th Dalai Lama, seeing the writing on the wall, declared his allegiance to the Kaifeng government. Pro-Lanzhou forces then arrested him. This caused a massive uprising against the Lanzhou government. The pro-Lanzhou forces retreated with the Dalai Lama to Qinghai. The pro-Lanzhou forces in Qinghai and Kham did not surrender after the fall of Lanzhou, as Yihequan fighters made an example of anyone who advocated laying down arms. They were decisively defeated at Yushu in April and at Golog in May. The Dalai Lama was at Golog and was freed with the fall of the city. The Southern anti-Qing forces made their final stand at Chengguan, which fell on July 1, 1903. The town was filled with the dead bodies of Yihequan, Qing soldiers, and the corpses of attempted deserters who were hung.
(Thubten Gyatso, 13th Dalai Lama)
In the North, Cao Futian and tens of thousands of Yihequan continued to harass the Qing army. Yihequan made their way into Mongolia and tried to stir up unrest in that region. The Mongols, by and large, were uninterested in joining the losing side. The Yihequan were unable to get very many Mongol recruits. An assault on Hohhot in the summer was easily repelled by Qing soldiers and locals. The Yihequan began to conscript Mongol villagers into their army. Many of these conscripts were used as cannon fodder. The Yihequan burned villages and killed livestock as the Qing army advanced. The Mongolian people became even further enraged at the Yihequan, and in December 1903 the citizens of Uliastai slaughtered the Yihequan fighters stationed there. Cao Futian then retreated to Xinjiang, where they still had some support left.
(Colorized image of anti-Yihequan Mongol fighter)
The Qing army developed a large and well-trained cavalry corps to chase down the remaining resistance. Cavalry played an important role in the vast steppes of Mongolia. Ethnic Mongols made up a large percentage of these mounted troops. Western China in these days had a feel similar to the cultural image of the Wild West. The Yihequan were like outlaws evading the authorities. The main objective for the government was to capture Cao Futian, alive or dead. A cavalry detachment opened fire with Cao Futian and a small group of Yihequan in January 1904, but they were defeated. Cao retreated even further into Xinjiang. The Qing army moved in to the province, securing most of the major urban areas in the spring of that year. But supplies were constantly being raided. In August of 1904, 15,000 Yihequan (the majority of their soldiers) were cornered at the town of Ili[1]. They ran out of ammunition and charged with swords and bayonets. They were mowed down by machine guns.
Most of the rest of the Yihequan were chased down by Qing cavalry. But Cao Futian continued to evade capture. He had escaped Xinjiang entirely and went into Gansu province. He and some of his men were aided by some Lanzhou loyalists who helped escape detection from the authorities. Someone eventually gave Cao’s location away to the military, and soon he was on the run again. He went to Xinjiang again, with 100 men, hoping to incite rebellion among the Muslim inhabitants. He was intercepted by a regiment of Qing cavalry outside Korla on December 15, 1905, and a fight ensued. After shots were fired, Cao’s men charged the Qing forces and it became a swordfight. Cao himself took down several Qing cavalrymen. But then he received a mortal wound from a lance carried by a Mongolian soldier. He died soon afterwards and the rest of his men surrendered. In 1906, the war was declared over, and Yihequan attacks became rare.
On November 13, 1903, the Guangxu emperor became a father. Consort Zhen bore him a son. He now had an heir to the throne. He named his son 趙政, Zhao Zheng. The birth of Zhao Zheng was the cause of great celebrations throughout China. Guangxu had become an extremely popular emperor for most Chinese. People had high hopes for the Guangxu Emperor. He also pardoned many former anti-Qing dissidents, and many of them returned to China. With peace coming in 1906, elections were held for a provisional government. The elections were a landslide for pro-reform candidates as most of those opposed to reform had fought on the losing side of the civil war. A constitution would be written and elections would be held again in 1910.
(Consort Zhen)
It was determined that the new Constitution should be modeled after that of the United States. Several American politicians, including former President William Jennings Bryan were sent to China to help. A bicameral legislature was established with a House of Representatives and a Senate. It worked much the same way as in the United States besides the fact that Senators had four year terms and were chosen by the provincial legislatures. Kang Youwei, from Guangdong province, became the first Prime Minister under the new constitution. A judicial branch was established as well. The executive branch was the emperor, who could veto any bill. At first, suffrage was restricted to men, but thanks to the tireless efforts of women like Qiu Jin, and eventual imperial support, women were eventually granted the right to vote.
(Kang Youwei)
For foreign relations, China had to be cautious. The Qing developed close relations with the United States during the presidencies of Bryan, Dewey, and Roosevelt. China also became somewhat friendly with Germany, and the Chinese army increasingly imitated that of Germany (while imitating Britain’s Navy). It was observed that there were three countries that could do the most to undermine Chinese sovereignty; Russia, Japan, and Britain. The Qing court determined that Russia had the worst intentions, followed by Japan, followed by Britain. In order to survive, China would need to play the major powers against each other. One day, the Guangxu Emperor hoped, China would become powerful enough to compete with the West and Japan on its own.
-Excerpt from Guangxu, Jiang Jieshi, Beijing Books, 1933.
1: Modern Day Yining
For me you were not, regardless, like the idea, but hate the spoiler. Would love if somehow the assasination of Roosevelt causes World War I or at least if his assasin would be a certain Leon Czolgosz.
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