Prehistoric WI Eurasian steppe horses hunted to extinction instead of domesticated?

Wrangel Island, it's a common Reddit/"pop science" quip

It's not a "pop-sci reddit fact". This has been known for at least three decades, and there are loads of substantial paleonthological finds to back it up. The mammoths on the island developed into an insular dwarfism form, so they weren't towering giants anymore, but they inhabited the island several millennia after the end of the last ice age.

now and days

Nowadays.
 
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You serious? I want to see the proof! That's a really neat piece of info!

I knew it from non-fiction years before I even dreamed of visiting the Internet or having an Internet connection at home.

Trust me, when the dwarf mammoths were discovered there and dated, it was a real surprise for researcher. Remnants of mammoths (including frozen mummies) had been commonly found all across Siberia for many centuries, but no one expected to find them on the more remote Siberian islands too, especially from that late in prehistory.

Siberian chap on reindeer

Love that photo, and have for years. It would be a really interesting sight if we started taming reindeer en masse.
 
Only problem I have with this scenario: Mammoths or rhinoceroses hunted to extinction I could undestand, but horses ? Horses are far too versatile and numerous creatures than the aforementioned megafauna and also make for smaller, harder, speedier targets. The versatility of horses also made their adaptation to the changed, early Holocene climate, much more easier and less painful. (In contrast, the other herbivorous megafauna couldn't cope with a combination of the improving hunting techniques of humans and the massive changes in Eurasian and global climate within a relatively short timespan.
As others have ponted out, the situation in N America wasn't too different.
Come the end of the Atlantic period and the beginning of the Subboreal with drier climate, the steppes can no longer support their population rates. It's either
a) mass emigration (which may be an option in some places but more difficult in others)
b) a solution like the Sredny Stog domestication of horses which first was just an additional source of food but with the Yamnaya grew into a mobility boost which allowed long-distance herding, or
c) hunting and gathering all you can hunt and gather. Situation was fairly similar across much of the Eurasian steppe. Mongolia was different weather-wise (drier in the first place), I don't know, did horses already live there and then?
 
The continental US to Central America is quite large and species large than equus equus to the size of a small dog were all hunted to extinction.
They were not used to hunting hominids so were vulnerable to predation. Old World equids are more used to the menace, zebras even more so. However some such as Equus sivalensis did become extinct. In contrast, it is unlikely that the horse dwelling on the Euro-Asian Steppe would due to numbers and previous experience. Still, it is interesting to consider a horseless world.
 
It's not a "pop-sci reddit fact". This has been known for at least three decades, and there are loads of substantial paleonthological finds to back it up. The mammoths on the island developed into an insular dwarfism form, so they weren't towering giants anymore, but they inhabited the island several millennia after the end of the last ice age.



Nowadays.
I've known about it for years, your phrasing specifically in reference to the pyramids is however very pop science and Reddit.

Regardless imma write how I damn well please
They were not used to hunting hominids so were vulnerable to predation. Old World equids are more used to the menace, zebras even more so. However some such as Equus sivalensis did become extinct. In contrast, it is unlikely that the horse dwelling on the Euro-Asian Steppe would due to numbers and previous experience. Still, it is interesting to consider a horseless world.
A blitzkrieg hunting event can occur, looking at the food remains of Neanderthal equus doesn't seem all that sought. In the expansion of modern humans their could still be some human predator naiviety to take advantage of.
 
I´m considering to work, after I`ve finished my current TL "A Different Chalice", on a world map (or at least Eastern Hemisphere map) with a number of explanations based on what we`ve been discussing in this thread.

Here are some of the hypotheses I´ve drawn so far- please comment! - and a few yet totally open questions.

Hypotheses:
1.) The Eurasian steppes will be inhabited by sedentary agriculturalist urban societies along the rivers and by herders in the large spaces in-betweens. Cultural horizons will not spread as quickly across space ITTL as they did IOTL on this "continental cultural highway".
2.) Political, economic, military and cultural hegemony will remain, at least far into the 1st millennium BCE, with the long-established urban civilizational centres (Egypt, Mesopotamia, Indus-Ganges, Oxus, Yellow River), who experience longer continuity.
3.) Like OTL´s civilizational centres, they will be primarily caught in ongoing centre-periphery conflicts with surrounding herding and marginalised groups.
4.) From these civilizational centres and others, innovations like bronze-working, wheels, donkey-domestication, syllabic script, iron-working, minted currency, mills etc. will slowly disseminate.
5.) With them, cultural concepts will come to influence the periphery, e.g.:
a) a "Maat"-like worldview and attitudes towards the decesaed spreading from Egypt across Northern Africa and much of Europe
b) counter-cultural concepts to a), like that of Moses, following suit
c) something similar, with a few analogies to Vedic traditions but also clear divergences from it for which I´d draw on our knowledge about Southern Indian and Adivasi folk religion, developing in the fertile plains of the Indian subcontinent and spreading from there to South-East Asia
6.) Without Kurganised influences seeping in from the West, proto-Chinese chalcolithic civilization along the Yellow River doesn`t form into unified Chinese Kingdoms / Empires / Federations until much later. Instead, lots of warring (or not so warring) states.
7.) Generally, much less territorial states when compared to OTL, and much more political systems akin to OTL´s South-East Asian Mueang model: more powerful city states exercising hegemony over less powerful ones, in overlapping concentric circles on several levels. At the heart, powerful states like Egypt, alt-Akkad/Babylon, or alt-Northern India. On the outside, non-agriculturalist indigenous societies.

Open questions:
- religious developments
- order of technological innovations, plausible divergences and their effect on overall development
- major clashes between civilizational centres since when?
- discovery of the Americas? when and by whom? (Canaanite traders?)
No problems with what you are planning, as for the questions, religion spreads like it does in the OTL but slower especially in land as coastal areas become focal points as well as river valleys. Islam and Christianity spread much more slowly, in fact horses played such a role in the spread of both, especially Islam that many places will not see either for centuries if at all. There is a good chance that Muslims do not spread North into Byzantine/Rome or Persia territory without horses. Islam may become a maritime religion that spreads along the coast of the Indian Ocean and South Atlantic. Zororastrianism survives and Southeast Asia becomes Hindu/Buddhist mix with local animist traditions thrown in. Islam is a traders faith.

Christianity reaches Scandinavia from the East instead of the West due to trade going from Byzantium/Rome. The British isles wait till 1000 CE or later until Christians come and again its through traders.

Granted Islam might be butterflied away due to all of this as well and Arabia gets split between the Persia and Rome/Byzantium. I think we will see a Persia-India conflict at least eventually.

As for the Americas it might be delayed centuries by all of this.
 
No problems with what you are planning, as for the questions, religion spreads like it does in the OTL but slower especially in land as coastal areas become focal points as well as river valleys. Islam and Christianity spread much more slowly, in fact horses played such a role in the spread of both, especially Islam that many places will not see either for centuries if at all. There is a good chance that Muslims do not spread North into Byzantine/Rome or Persia territory without horses. Islam may become a maritime religion that spreads along the coast of the Indian Ocean and South Atlantic. Zororastrianism survives and Southeast Asia becomes Hindu/Buddhist mix with local animist traditions thrown in. Islam is a traders faith.

Christianity reaches Scandinavia from the East instead of the West due to trade going from Byzantium/Rome. The British isles wait till 1000 CE or later until Christians come and again its through traders.

Granted Islam might be butterflied away due to all of this as well and Arabia gets split between the Persia and Rome/Byzantium. I think we will see a Persia-India conflict at least eventually.

As for the Americas it might be delayed centuries by all of this.

At least 10,000,000,000 butterflies just died right now.
 
It really does tell you how much humanity depended on the horse, which for me this thread is kind of sad I love horses, I still remember the last time I rode one. I was 12 and at a boy scout camp and the troop I was with was riding and I ended up passing them all because I knew what I was doing. I had read how to ride books and we got to the stables and for like half an hour I was alone. I brought him to water and fed him, hell I was ready to take off the saddle by the time the rest of the troop came. I still remember the horse's name Apache. Add to that all my heroes on film, tv and books, historical and fictional all rode horses.
 
It really does tell you how much humanity depended on the horse, which for me this thread is kind of sad I love horses, I still remember the last time I rode one. I was 12 and at a boy scout camp and the troop I was with was riding and I ended up passing them all because I knew what I was doing. I had read how to ride books and we got to the stables and for like half an hour I was alone. I brought him to water and fed him, hell I was ready to take off the saddle by the time the rest of the troop came. I still remember the horse's name Apache. Add to that all my heroes on film, tv and books, historical and fictional all rode horses.

Donkeys good. Donkeys win.

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