There is an assumption here that larger donkeys can be bred. Given the obvious advantages of doing so on OTL, why has it not been done?
Prehistoric WI Eurasian steppe horses hunted to extinction instead of domesticated?
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Donkey were never a prestige animal in the societies that utilized them that warranted making them more than what was required for everyday needs and life.
You're being reactive. I am being proactive by telling how you are wrong because you do not understand what you are talking about.
Please do not bother messaging me if you're too lazy to read what I write or look into the PDFs and books to the Google search. Otherwise you're wasting my time trying not to show your bruised ego.
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There's an Egyptian tomb with 10 partially domesticated donkeys found in it, and the Sumerians where using some sort of equid that may have been a donkey or onager to pull chariots. So the idea of Donkeys as being suitable for elites for use in trade or warfare was around in the ancient middle east, even if it isn't present in modern east Africa, or the reason for the initial domestication.
They have, Poitou donkeys and American mammoth donkeys are two that come two mind.
Well arnt you a sassy banana.
The idea that you have somehow bruised my ego is a tad humorous, how much do you honestly think I care about being right about a hypothetical situation that is on the periphery of my actual Intrests?
You are right though we are clearly wasting time, I'm not going to get anywhere with you in any kind of discussion so their is little point in continuing.
The utilization of Donkey as animals of trade and pack does not preclude it from being utilized by the wealthy. My statement that it was not a prestige animal goes hand in hand with the society it developed in.
That is a Saharan/Sahelian cattle rearing people.
The onager was used by Asiatics. The Donkey is not of Asia, it was domesticated and categorized within a society of Pastoralism specifically Pastoralism rooted in African tradition.
The Donkey as I stated above was only developed in tandem as much as what was required regarding its position as a beast of burden and in the case especially of Egyptians one of trade and pack animal. The prestige was not in the Donkey itself, rather it was within the packs that the Donkey carried.
This is a dramatic departure from the embodied wealth, power and prestige of cattle in a society derived from cattle cults.
If you do not understand the conditions and cultures that formed the basis of Donkey domestication and utilization then I can see why it seems so easy to think "oh hey why don't we make Donkey #1" but societies don't work that way.
The horse's domestication came from cattle not having the characteristics at that time and place that was advantageous for its survive. Horses don't chew cud, they can eat through snow, they could deal with the weather and climate cattle hadn't yet adapted to in Central Asia.
Amongst the oldest remains we find that horse were not only bridled and ridden but they were also milked. The formation of horse society came from the dirth of alternative livestock.
Whereas the utilization of the Donkey was to increase the efficiencies and subsistence strategies of cattle centered husbandry.
The expansion of the horse is part and parcel to the expansion of prestige rooted ultimately in Central Asia. It was enveloped within broader systems of power, display and embodied wealth in Europe but it was always one attached to wealth even above that of cattle. The Donkey never was that.
If a society domesticated Donkey first, then later developed relationships with cattle that could not cope in similar conditions then I could see the formation of relations similar to Horse in Central Asia being played out in the Sahel but that's not history (though one I've though about quite often).
I'd also say donkeys milk being the closest to human milk of all quadrupeds also influenced it's position as women's livestock. Centering the domestication as a "helper" of families and hearth I'd really challenge basic assumptions of ease in shifting power/prestige.
But again, I love detail and history.
Bye.
It's absolutely possible. It was done in the 1800s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_mammoth_donkey but only as a way to produce better mules as the donkey's size was the mules' limiting factor.
As long as horses are around there's not a real day to day advantage to large donkeys. Even big donkeys are inferior to mules as pack animals and inferior to horses in speed and agility. Without horses though suddenly the donkey is your only choice.
Yes but how does what you've said in any way preclude the donkey from taking center stage as the primary beast of burden? You're argument seems to assume that since the donkey emerged in a pastoral environment valuing cattle, the pastoral environment will be the sole system under which it will be developed. You're arguing against the donkey because it does not have the same perception of wealth attached to it that OTL attached to the horse but the very necessity of its usage pulling chariots and (as you yourself have pointed out) as a pack animal in the absence of horses demands that selection toward a swifter and larger animal take place. A pastoral society might not value a donkey in the same manner as a horse but in the absence of horses the army with donkey chariots will reign supreme.
I'm not saying you're wrong but you haven't presented any facts against donkeys other than "they're not prestigious in our history so they won't be used". Yes, the course of human history will be dramatically altered (especially in central Asia) by donkeys' differences from horses but the donkeys' use itself seems to be demanded by economics and the lack of suitable alternatives. Why exactly do you think the donkey's use would be so limited?
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not to mention, people would have been doing it since the dawn of civilization, not just a few years in the 1880's. Thousands of years of specialized breeding, not a decade.
yes, this.. all this talk about the role of donkeys in OTL kinda misses the point... in this POD, there are no horses.
so... a quick Google search tells me that donkeys were native to Nubia/Somalia, and were a fairly late domesticated animal, being first done so around 4000 BC, compared to cattle, sheep, and goats around 6-7000 BC. Horses arrived in ancient Egypt about 1700 BC. So in this world where horses never exist... what happens? Do the Egyptians start using donkeys for chariots, specialized breeding for size earlier on? From this quick search, it seems that the Nubians first/Egyptians second are going to be the earliest to start this breeding program, with Mesopotamia not far behind... effects of this?
the direction is going to change too... horses went from north to south, donkeys will have to go from south to north, and be acclimated along the way...
why wouldn't we be? You aren't going to replace chariots with cavalry if you don't have horses.
You honestly think think no one will ever consider riding a different animal?
We are dealing with an unknown here, which is whether donkeys can be bred not only larger, but large enough to hold a rider. I think its almost certain that donkeys can be bred into a chariot-pulling role, but I am less certain that they can be bred enough to simply become a full equivalent of the OTL horse. Maybe yes, maybe no.
They can be bred that big, we have bred them that big otl the largest breeds of Donkey are larger than quite a few breeds of horse.
The economy with which Donkey developed was not centered around it. The horse was milk, meat and rider solely.
The way with which Donkey is percieved in society is twofold: it is lower than cattle for it lacks embodied wealth but it also is the very last animal to be sold. It is the cornerstone of the poor family.
No one is denying the importance of Donkey on everyday life, the problem is unlike Horse and the entire economy and society centered around them -it's never happened with donkey-.
Donkey weren't domesticated for speed. More than anything else they were self selected for steadiness, endurance and surefootedness. The trajectory of horse development and Donkey development are different because the context of their respective economies were different.
Prestige of livestock is rooted in the history and cultural alteration with said livestock and/or the expansion of values coming from cultural alteration.
When feral horses were seen by Plain Native Americans is was not supplanted by the dog rather it was enveloped within their societies concept of dog as draught animal which is why horse is translated as elk dog or deer dog rather than say "long buffalo". I'm of the opinion that this is rooted in their use as a pack animal usibg travois; with the riding of horse for hunting and warfare after seeing Europeans doing so. At most it'd likely be used by women, children and elderly just as Donkey is used.
They can be bred that big, we have bred them that big otl the largest breeds of Donkey are larger than quite a few breeds of horse.
I stand corrected. My apologies to Harry Reid.