To say donkeys would need to be very different is stretching, to get donkeys to the point where they could confer the same advantages as horse albeit to a lesser degree (which won't matter because their will be no horses to out compete them) may take at most a couple hundred years of inefficient selective breeding getting them to a point where they are every bit as good as otl horse may take a couple hundred more.
Prehistoric WI Eurasian steppe horses hunted to extinction instead of domesticated?
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But my point that the non-steppe cultures will already have them and have mastered the use of them still stands. In fact, they would have had them first.
When conditions were right, the Huns, Mongols, and other steppe nomads were able to wreak havoc on sendentary societies, but rarely were able to replace them. Nobody ever came close to the cultural (and apparently genetic) impact the Indo-Europeans had.
Oh I'm sure they will think they mastered them too, right up until they are faced with the kind of warfare the steppe breeds.
You may have a point on about a lack of ability to culturally replace the sedentary societies but I doubt highly there won't be cultural influence and in of itself could be more than enough to fundamentally change sedentary societies
I know. But I'm saying think a more Mongol-like impact, not a more Proto-Indo-European-like impact on the neighbors.
Just to run through from genetics what we find so far is:
Early Yamnaya (Indo Europeans) seem dark haired and dark eyed almost exclusively, with skin that was probably darker than today's Southern Europeans, on average. The farmers in Europe about this time (roughly 1000 years earlier) tended more frequently to have blue eyes (the blue variant is more common), but also to have slightly darker skin than the Yamnaya, on average. Both of these populations seen more alike to each other than either are to modern Europeans. The Bronze Age populations of Europe and Central Asia who came from a mix of both were darker skinned and eyed than recent populations, but lighter skinned than the Yamnaya, and natural selection then seems to have lightened skin across Europe, but increased blue eyes mainly in Northern and Central Europe.
(We also find the Yamnaya seem "genetically taller" (for want of a better term) than recent European populations, while pre-Indo European Central European farmers are about the same height as recent Europeans and pre-Indo European Southern European farmers seem much shorter. Bronze Age Europeans were also the same height as present day European people.)
Though that gets us back to the question of how much horses actually mattered for the early Indo-European expansions, or whether it was the mix of the ox drawn wagons, the specialist warriors and weapons, the war adapted social customs, plague and bad climate spells for farmers that really spread the early Indo-Europeans.
The early Indo Europeans apparently weren't horseback riders, and even horse drawn chariots didn't happen until the later steppe cultures (which probably expanded to India, but this is well after the movement into Europe).
(Btw, just generally on thread topic, getting horses extinct in Iberia would probably help as well, if you want a horseless world.)
Ok. I haven't been keeping up with genetics research that well lately.
But now the blue eyes in the European farmers, that would have come from European hunter-gather ancestry, right? I don't think the Anatolian farmers had blue eyes.
I am pretty sure I had heard that Yamnaya and European Hunter-Gathers were genetically more similar to each other than to the Anatolian Farmers.
IRC, actually Anatolian Early Farmers did have the HERC2 variant (blue eye variant in recent European), actually at higher frequency than most of the later European farmers did (Central European farmers seeming to be the exception) and higher frequency than Yamnaya. Apparently an ancient hunter gatherer in the Caucasus about 10,000 years ago also seems to have this variant. The Anatolian Farmers also seem to have had a slightly lighter set of skin colour variants than most of the later pre-Indo European farmers in Europe. This is why it's a puzzle for selection (why no clear selection over time in Europe for most of the Neolithic period when all the variants are in place?). All this stuff is in the same paper IRC, btw. The sample size is still pretty low for lots of these ancient people though.
IRC again Yamnaya were pretty clearly quite a lot more similar to European Hunter-Gatherers from Eastern Europe than any European Hunter-Gatherers were to the Anatolian farmers. I think it's more complicated and close as to whether specifically the Western European Hunter Gatherers were closer to the Anatolian Farmers or the Yamnaya, but the Yamnaya probably still edge it.
It depends on how successful they and how prestigious their culture is viewed as by the conquered peoples
Magical123
Banned
I imagine Central Asia and the Ukrainian grasslands are settled by Sedentary cultures.
Without nomads descending on Europe/the near east/India every few centuries you might have much earlier contact between east and west. For example you have a flourishing BMAC or Oxus civilization with settlement on the Iranian plateau.
Without nomadic raids and invasions the near east meets western china and Indo-Europeans form a civilization from Crimea to modern day Uzbekistan.
End result earlier world unity in Eurasia
Without nomads descending on Europe/the near east/India every few centuries you might have much earlier contact between east and west. For example you have a flourishing BMAC or Oxus civilization with settlement on the Iranian plateau.
Without nomadic raids and invasions the near east meets western china and Indo-Europeans form a civilization from Crimea to modern day Uzbekistan.
End result earlier world unity in Eurasia
On the other hand, no horses means all news travels more slowly. The world remains "bigger" for longer.
Horses were vital, they were the attack vehicles that overwhelmed and destroyed armies, there are tactics that only work on horseback that the Mongols used effectively that you could never do on foot or even from chariot. Granted by the time the Mongols would become a threat I am thinking that Bactrian Camels would do everything that horses did.
Really? I could imaginate that without horses would last longer connect East and West. Camels and donkeys are much slower.
Magical123
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Have you eve heard of the Oxus culture it was perfectly placed to be a conduit from the near east to Asia. In fact many archaeologists think nomads are the reason for its disappearance.
Emperor RyRy
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Yeah donkeys basically replace them. People seem to underestimate just how crazily good humans are at changing organisms in short timespans. Look at what the Andean people's started with and look at the llamas they had only two millennia later. Look at the horses of 3000 BCE and of the Roman Era.
Why Donkey?
It would be Onager. They are bigger, faster and stronger than donkeys. Once you domesticate Onager, people will start breeding bigger and stronger one's. And after many generation you will have onagers comparable to Mongolian horses. So it is all over again steppe nomad cultures.
It would be Onager. They are bigger, faster and stronger than donkeys. Once you domesticate Onager, people will start breeding bigger and stronger one's. And after many generation you will have onagers comparable to Mongolian horses. So it is all over again steppe nomad cultures.
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If we exclude all the horse family, then camel is another choice.
OTL camel is used as freight animal. So people start breeding bigger and stronger one. But ITTL people will breed in addition as a freight animal, also will breed smaller and quicker ones. So this smaller and quicker camels will be used as horses. Instead of horse cavalry we will see camel cavalry more better and refined manner than OTL.
Another option could be deer. Their are bigger and quicker. Also reindeer is used as domesticated animal, and used for transport.
OTL camel is used as freight animal. So people start breeding bigger and stronger one. But ITTL people will breed in addition as a freight animal, also will breed smaller and quicker ones. So this smaller and quicker camels will be used as horses. Instead of horse cavalry we will see camel cavalry more better and refined manner than OTL.
Another option could be deer. Their are bigger and quicker. Also reindeer is used as domesticated animal, and used for transport.
But they weren't for a reason
Interaction with human beings[edit]
Onagers are notoriously untamable. Equids were used in ancient Sumer to pull wagons circa 2600 BC, and then chariots on the Standard of Ur, circa 2550 BC. Clutton-Brock (1992) suggests that these were donkeys rather than onagers on the basis of a "shoulder stripe".[11] However, close examination of the animals (equids, sheep and cattle) on both sides of the piece indicate that what appears to be a stripe may well be a harness, a trapping, or a joint in the inlay.[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onager
I will go with camels, deer, reindeer in particular I could see becoming a thing in Northern Europe to a degree
Also this list is something everyone should keep in mind when domestication becomes a thing, Predators. If what you are raising can be wiped out by a predator while you sleep you are going to either wipe that predator off the map, if you can't do that you either leave or raise something else. Now this list is what is current found in parts of Asia.
Predation[edit]
An Asiatic lion attacking an onager (Roman, c. AD 150)
The onager is preyed upon by apex predators such as Asiatic leopards and striped hyenas. A few cases of onager deaths due to predation by leopards was recorded in Iran, as a Persian leopard attacked and eaten a Persian onager. Though it is said that leopards do not usually feed on equids such as in Africa, it may be due that Asian leopards are larger and stronger enough to prey on Asiatic wild asses.[8][9]
In the Middle East to the Indian Subcontinent, Asiatic lions and tigers were the biggest predators to onagers, just as African lions are to zebras. They were also formerly by Asiatic wild dogs, Asiatic cheetahs and possibly bears in their former neighboring ranges, though they may have mostly preyed on onager foals. In South Asia, mugger crocodiles can be great threats to onagers during migratory river crossings.
Currently, the biggest predator for onagers are gray wolves. Investigations revealed that a 23% of prey proportion of gray wolves were attributed to the Asian wild ass. However, like most equids, they are known to have anti-predator protection. Groups of stallions cooperate and try to chase off predators. If threatened, onagers defend themselves and violently kick at the incoming predator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onager
Now add bears and lions in many places as well as crocodiles.
Predation[edit]
.jpg)
An Asiatic lion attacking an onager (Roman, c. AD 150)
The onager is preyed upon by apex predators such as Asiatic leopards and striped hyenas. A few cases of onager deaths due to predation by leopards was recorded in Iran, as a Persian leopard attacked and eaten a Persian onager. Though it is said that leopards do not usually feed on equids such as in Africa, it may be due that Asian leopards are larger and stronger enough to prey on Asiatic wild asses.[8][9]
In the Middle East to the Indian Subcontinent, Asiatic lions and tigers were the biggest predators to onagers, just as African lions are to zebras. They were also formerly by Asiatic wild dogs, Asiatic cheetahs and possibly bears in their former neighboring ranges, though they may have mostly preyed on onager foals. In South Asia, mugger crocodiles can be great threats to onagers during migratory river crossings.
Currently, the biggest predator for onagers are gray wolves. Investigations revealed that a 23% of prey proportion of gray wolves were attributed to the Asian wild ass. However, like most equids, they are known to have anti-predator protection. Groups of stallions cooperate and try to chase off predators. If threatened, onagers defend themselves and violently kick at the incoming predator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onager
Now add bears and lions in many places as well as crocodiles.
Because we had wild horse. The human would choose horse over onager.
We don't know whether wild horse was more tamable than current onager or not. No one knows.
Per OP, What will Eurasian people do? Whether they would develop some kind of pastoral society? So my choice is onager is mostly likely, since as I understand donkeys aren't in Eurasian steppe.
Once wild horses are exterminated, my hypothesis is onagers would fill the void. So there will be more onager population, spread in larger territories and might be larger species of it. It is natural choice for humans inhabiting the Eurasian steppes.