No Southern Strategy: The Political Ramifications of an Alternate 1964 Election

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Gonzo

Gonzo

GrasshopperKing said:
Yeah, the moralistic impulse seems sensible enough. It could also probably help the Democrats maintain their hold on the Catholic vote.

Aren't the Democrats generally more hawkish ITTL though? Where do Carter and McKeithen fit into this?
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During Howell's Presidency he gradually surrounded himself with the Hawks (SecDef Scoop Jackson, NSA Henry Kissinger UN Rep. Daniel Patrick Moynihan and Chief of Staff Zbigniew Brzezinski namely. McKeithen however has surrounded himself with a likewise bunch of Hawks such as Brzezinski, Jeanne Kirkpatrick, Paul Wolfowitz (both still Democrats ITTL) all of whom are poised for high office in the Cabinet and will play a large part in the prior mentioned collapse of the USSR.

OnlyAlb said:
Somewhere in New Hampshire, Scott Brown is crying.
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Not ITTL ;).
 

Nofix

GrasshopperKing said:
Yeah, the moralistic impulse seems sensible enough. It could also probably help the Democrats maintain their hold on the Catholic vote.

Aren't the Democrats generally more hawkish ITTL though? Where do Carter and McKeithen fit into this?
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"War is bad" and "Meh" respectively. McKeithen hasn't put much stock into foreign policy, and plans to let his foreign affairs personnel handle that.

Ares96 said:
Bruce Babbitt always did have a rather action-hero-y sort of name.
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Coming this January: Bruce Babbitt is, Action President

fjihr said:
The USSR still collapsed ITTL. Well, drat. I hoped it could reform.

Will Russia not fall into a huge depression, at least?
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No spoilers. ;)
 
MasterSanders

MasterSanders

In a strange way, I think I might have been a Democrat ITTL.

I will admit, I was a little disappointed with Shirley Black not winning just for the sake of having Shirley Temple president. Still, quite good.
 

Nofix

MasterSanders said:
In a strange way, I think I might have been a Democrat ITTL.

I will admit, I was a little disappointed with Shirley Black not winning just for the sake of having Shirley Temple president. Still, quite good.
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Good, I like to make people think about ideology. Especially their own. It's one of the fun things about political TL's when you can move things around and make different people and movements interact.

One of many ITTL WI people can post. Alongside "WI: Roy Cohn stood down as Vice-President in 1980?", "WI: President Howell won re-election in 1976?", and "AHC/WI: No National Conservative Party?"

[I actually am considering posting NSS WI like this, in the style of DBWI's. But I'm not sure how those would go down: if they would lock out non-readers, if it would be received as me attention-whoring, etc.]

Constantinople said:
So the Republicans are quite a bit more liberal... right?
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Depends on what you mean. In terms of the actual 1980's, I'd say they are a bit more to the left on economics, and significantly to the left on social issues. In terms of classical liberalism, ie little government interventions, yes they are somewhat more liberal.
 

Cylon_Number_14

Constantinople said:
So the Republicans are quite a bit more liberal... right?
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More accurate perhaps to say "more diverse." They have maintained a broad range of factions and strains of thought (as have the Dems). There's some regionalism going on too. There's the Northeast Establishment centrists (not only in the northeast), the pragmatic conservatives like Cohn, the libertarians like MacBride and Gov Paul, but almost NO unrepentant former Dixiecrats that jumped ship OTL. Those guys are split between being NatCon base voters and giving headaches to the Democrats national leadership. The Democrats are also more diverse and regionalist.

ITTL you really got to pay attention to specific candidates in both (or more) parties rather than make too many assumptions based on party labels.
 

Brundlefly

Cylon_Number_14 said:
More accurate perhaps to say "more diverse." They have maintained a broad range of factions and strains of thought (as have the Dems). There's some regionalism going on too. There's the Northeast Establishment centrists (not only in the northeast), the pragmatic conservatives like Cohn, the libertarians like MacBride and Gov Paul, but almost NO unrepentant former Dixiecrats that jumped ship OTL. Those guys are split between being NatCon base voters and giving headaches to the Democrats national leadership. The Democrats are also more diverse and regionalist.
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That's what also came into my mind. In a way, both Republicans and Democrats are way more "schizophrenic" than in OTL. I guess there will be some sort of realignment in the Nineties after the fall of Communism. I'm also curious what will happen to the Freak Power party, but I've got a hunch that they may be a generational freak. But who knows...
 
Gonzo

Gonzo

To give you an idea of each of the parties on spectrums of the several main issues (economic, social and foreign policy) here are a few spectrums.

Economically:

<Left===============================Right>

Freak Power Democratic National Conservative Republican


Socially:

filler ^
conservative National Conservative
filler|| fillerfil Democratic
filler|| fillerfil Republican
fillliberal fillerFreak Power
filler v


Foreign Policy:

<Dove==============================Hawk>

Freak Power Republican National Conservative Democratic
 

GrasshopperKing

So I know the NCP has absorbed a lot of Dixiecrats, but how openly racist are they at this point? Do they advocate for segregation anywhere? Also, does the Mormon Church allow for black priests ITTL?
 

TPL99

An prediction:

1992:
Fox McKeithen/Bruce Babbitt (D)
Paul Tsongas/Donald Rumsfeld (R)
Evan Mecham/Donald Trump (NC)
Hunter Thompson/Angela Davis (FP)
 
Gonzo

Gonzo

I can reveal that the GOP & NatCon tickets will have a Governor and a Senator on them; here are a few clues to see if any of you can guess them -

GOP

-Governor has already been mentioned in this TL at some stage after 1980 and is famous for something other than politics IRL.
-Senator is a female (a 1/3 chance of guessing that right!)


Nat Con

-Governor hasn't been mention ITTL yet but was a RL Southern Republican Gov. around this time IRL.
-Senator is one of only 3 ITTL NatCon Senators to have served in Congress during the 1990's.


I can also reveal Fox. McKeithen will not die in a plane crash and will lead to Bruce Babbitt revealing he is the Manchurian candidate, going Bulworth, causing a nuclear war and going out Dr. Strangelove style (though that would make one hell of a movie!) -

giphy.gif
 
Gorrister

Gorrister

Gonzo said:
I can reveal that the GOP & NatCon tickets will have a Governor and a Senator on them; here are a few clues to see if any of you can guess them -

GOP

-Governor has already been mentioned in this TL at some stage after 1980 and is famous for something other than politics IRL.
-Senator is a female (a 1/3 chance of guessing that right!)
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Jon Huntsman Sr/Tonie Nathan?

Gonzo said:
Nat Con

-Governor hasn't been mention ITTL yet but was a RL Southern Republican Gov. around this time IRL.
-Senator is one of only 3 ITTL NatCon Senators to have served in Congress during the 1990's.
Click to expand...

John Ashcroft/????
 
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