I swear there are going to be a bunch of Parisian Wars between the islands.
Your Ideal European Borders?
- Thread starter cmakk1012
- Start date
Georgie777
Banned
Eh, I'm very much for decentralisation. Less likely to have oppressive totalitarian governments. I support every independence movement (except Catalonia because reasons).
Gib Alsace-Moselle back.There's only one correct answer, and we all know it:
Not to mention that I think it's completely impossible to have every single ethnic group in Europe be ruled by a single government. Unless you want Europe to end up like Africa, with guerilla groups and terrorists everywhere. There's absolutely no way that would work in the last century, or this century. Even a Western European Union is extremely optimistic. While nice in theory I think it would be a complete horror show in practice.
But.....but....what about Poland?
I think the map's obviously a Poland-wank, Poland being the big mustard-yellow blob to the east.
Bavaria? Scotland? California? Venice? Quebec? Texas? North Cyprus? Kashmir (from literally everyone because is there anyone over there not claiming that bit of land?)? The weird Islamic State people over in the southern part of the Philippines (I mean, between the current government and a bunch of religious extremists, who's the real villain?)? A ton of China? Then there's Africa, which I don't know where to start and whoever the politicians were who decided on those borders I hope burn in hell (I believe Africa has historically had the greatest number of territorial disputes between its nations in the last century, could've used referendums then but then again how'd that work? Religion? Culture? Language? You'd need to forcefully relocate people for that to not result in chaos, too).
And who decides? The people there exclusively? The rest of the people of the country whose economy is disrupted by secession and the need to negotiate new deals and now the whole thing of taxes (because, let's be honest, most states that want secession at least partially want it because they contribute more than what they feel they get back from the central government).
My main issue with decentralisation is, well, how's anyone going to keep the slightly bigger ones from subsuming the smaller ones and snowballing out of control (this isn't EU4 but the HRE did go from literally thousands of independent states to hundreds even before Napoleon came around)? Or, like with China, you can get Hong Kong's independence but that means jack when China can threaten to cut off the water supply if not given something significant in return and Hong Kong can't do anything against a 1 billion human industrial behemoth.
Looking at the Warring States in China, that came about due to the Zhou losing all central authority. A couple of states managed to absorb the rest. In the end, after hundreds of years of fighting, one state conquered the rest. Same idea with Japan, France, pretty much every unitary state was born from a bunch of smaller statelets based on culture or geography or kinship that got absorbed, through diplomacy or war, into another, which continued until it reached a logistical end (Japan ran out of islands and the mainland conquering was too hard, France realized its neighbors didn't want to get conquered anymore).
If you want peace, economic interdependence and difficulty in conducting effective war (terrain, logistics) I think are the best. Make it too hard to wage war and have the money be in cooperation (EU was founded for that purpose, at least in part, right?).
I don't know, honestly. I just feel like decentralization leads to weaker nations that empires get to feed on. Then you have the same damned problem come about again.
Truth is there's no real answer. Which secessionist movements succeed and which don't is decided by history. While the United States, Poland and Greece were succesful, others like Bavaria, Tibet and California were not. For these things to work both parties involved have to willing to cooperate (see the UK and Scotland for example) or else talks will always fall apart.
Also the line in which a secessionist group is a non-legitimate terrorist group or a actual secessionist movement is blurry. However I think it's pretty clear which ones have a decent claim and which ones don't. The Catlan, Tibetan and Kurdish independence movements have a historical, linguistic and cultural claim to the land which is completely factual. Nutjob secessionists like ISIS or Lieberland are at best absolute nonsense and at worst active extremist conquest/genocide.
I personally am in general for secession if there's a case to be made. Which is why I would support say Kurdish independence but not Breton independence. The Kurdish people have a deep rooted language and culture and are opressed by artificial colonial borders. Therefore there's a case to be made. The Breton language is protected by the French state but has been slowly assimilated into French peacefully. Therefor there isn't a case to be made.
Why can't I find a map that has all of Europe as a variety of British Dominions...seems like something some chap would have already done?
what would be name for this state? Very likely there would be more Ukrainians then Czechs.
Czechoslokrainia?
It's complicated, and the Islamic State is different from the Moro separatists, who actually do have legitimate grievances against the Christian lowlander-dominated central government.
Skallagrim
Banned
Okay, earlier in this thread I wrote at length about my own highly decentralist and diverse ideal regarding Europe and her borders. At one point, it was suggested that I actually make a map of that ideal. Well, here it is. Note that this is utterly ASB. This would never actually happen. (Also, note that the cultural/linguistic/ethnic borders shown here are based on a historical situation, not on modern realities: the vague POD for all this must by definition precede the French revolution, since avoiding its centralist legacy is a key goal. If I had to re-draw the borders of Europe today, I'd make some different choices.)
(M-BAM Europe used as basemap. And obviously, the colour key is SUCK.)
Backstory
In another thread, it was suggested that my kind of ideal was nice, but would only work if there could ever exist an almighty and benevolent figure keeping the system in place (i.e. stopping the various regions from trying to conquer each other, and stopping foreign powers from invading.) Basically, there would have to be some almighty "wizard" who could magically keep everything peaceful and orderly.
Well, that's an idea that stuck around. Therefore, the ludicrous ASB backstory for this map is that somewhere around 1770 AD (before the Age of Revolutions really let loose), the interdimensional wizard Wilhelmus von Außerirdischerstein-Raumfledermausberg arrives on Earth and promptly sets himself up as Wizard-Emperor of Europe. He magically transfers all political leaders, monarchs and other such bothersome figures of power who are inclined to disagree with his vision to a previously uninhabited but otherwise pleasant island in the Pacific Ocean, and begins dividing Europe into new political units. In this effort, he bases himself on such matters as language, religion, cultural distinctiveness and what collective identities may be held by the populace at large. (Also, being a bit of a philhellene, he also uses his magic to transfer all Turks in Europe to Anatolia, and all Greeks in Anatolia to Greece— which suddenly stretches to the Bosporus again.)
Of course, considering the timeframe, most people primarily identify as "locals" of the region they happen to inhabit. The European Empire, as such, is at hear organised extremely locally. The basic political units are the towns and (in urban locales) the borough / quarter / arrondissement. So in the political structure of the Empire, that's where the greater share of political life takes place. Most day-to-day regulations and political decisions are made on this level. The towns are grouped together into shires, boroughs/quarters/arrondissements obviously make up cities. Most of the political process that does not take place on an even more local level instead occur on the shire-and-city level. The greater share of the actual laws are made on this level. (Yes, each shire and each city has its own legal code... usually based on customary law. None of that Enlightenment-era "Code Napoléon"-codification nonsense in the Empire of Wilhelmus!)
Ironically, none of the above are actually shown on the map. The divisions are basically endless, after all.
The countless shires and cities are united into various Counties, Margravates and Lordships. Most of these are based on the borders of local languages and dialects. Where not based on language, borders are based on religious or cultural divides. These divisions are shown on the map: basically all internal borders shown on the map denote such areas. Politically, Counties, Margravates and Lordships are tasked with little other than education (typically in the local language) and local infrastructure.
The Counties, Margravates and Lordships of the Empire are united into various Duchies and Kingdoms. These are also shown on the map, and are in fact very obviously marked by different colours. This might lead some to believe that the Duchies and Kingdoms are the main political units, but they are not. They merely group together various more local polities that share closely related languages. The Duchies and Kingdoms are chiefly tasked with preserving cultural heritage (registration and maintenance of monuments etc.) and the construction and upkeep of the main infrastructure.
There are also some smaller areas that are culturally distinct and culturally unified. These regions are organised as Grand Duchies. Luxemburg is a prime example. Grand Duchies are directly divided into shires and cities, without an intermediate stage. Furthermore, there are three Principalities (Andorra, Monaco and Liechtenstein), which are very small, and are directly divided into municipal areas (and in the case of Monaco, into urban arrondissements).
Finally, there are the republican regions within the Empire. There are two tiny Republics Principalities (Andorra, Monaco, Liechtenstein) which are directly divided into municipal areas, and there are two larger (Romandie and the Alemannische Schweiz), which are both successor states to Switzerland. Those are divided into cantons, which are in turn divided into municipalities.
On the Imperial level, there is barely a government at all. The main Empire-wide institution is the military. To accommodate the extreme multilingual nature of the Empire, the language of the Imperial government and of the armed forces is Latin. There is an Imperial a "constitution" of sorts, resembling something like the Magna Carta— except that it guarantees rights to all inhabitants, not just to the elite. Emperor Wilhelmus himself is rarely seen, unless someone tries to do something very stupid, like conquer a neighbouring area or something. Then the Wizard-Emperor suddenly appears, and makes the guilty party wish he'd never been so foolish. But as long as nobody makes trouble, it's as if the Imperial government only exists in theory.
Since his appearance, up to the present day, there has only ever been one Emperor. Since he's so rarely seen, it took a while for people to catch on, but after the first hundred year or so, it became pretty clear that Wilhelmus wasn't actually planning to ever die or anything. Ever since his conquest, Europe has been very diverse, and very peaceful. The armed forces of the Empire rarely do any fighting, and mostly exist to ensure nobody ever tries to invade, and to aid in disaster relief where and when needed. There is no draft, but ever since the reforms of 1850, a year of military service has been a requirement to gain the right to vote. (The reforms made it so that the various Dukes, Counts etc. became elected titles, or ceremonial figureheads to rubber-stamp the decisions made by elected Chancellors or such figures.)
After centuries of peace and tranquility, the vast majority of the Europeans wouldn't have it any other way.
(Now, isn't that a completely sensible system? Too bad that the only way it could ever have been established is quite literally "a wizard did it".)
(M-BAM Europe used as basemap. And obviously, the colour key is SUCK.)
Backstory
In another thread, it was suggested that my kind of ideal was nice, but would only work if there could ever exist an almighty and benevolent figure keeping the system in place (i.e. stopping the various regions from trying to conquer each other, and stopping foreign powers from invading.) Basically, there would have to be some almighty "wizard" who could magically keep everything peaceful and orderly.
Well, that's an idea that stuck around. Therefore, the ludicrous ASB backstory for this map is that somewhere around 1770 AD (before the Age of Revolutions really let loose), the interdimensional wizard Wilhelmus von Außerirdischerstein-Raumfledermausberg arrives on Earth and promptly sets himself up as Wizard-Emperor of Europe. He magically transfers all political leaders, monarchs and other such bothersome figures of power who are inclined to disagree with his vision to a previously uninhabited but otherwise pleasant island in the Pacific Ocean, and begins dividing Europe into new political units. In this effort, he bases himself on such matters as language, religion, cultural distinctiveness and what collective identities may be held by the populace at large. (Also, being a bit of a philhellene, he also uses his magic to transfer all Turks in Europe to Anatolia, and all Greeks in Anatolia to Greece— which suddenly stretches to the Bosporus again.)
Of course, considering the timeframe, most people primarily identify as "locals" of the region they happen to inhabit. The European Empire, as such, is at hear organised extremely locally. The basic political units are the towns and (in urban locales) the borough / quarter / arrondissement. So in the political structure of the Empire, that's where the greater share of political life takes place. Most day-to-day regulations and political decisions are made on this level. The towns are grouped together into shires, boroughs/quarters/arrondissements obviously make up cities. Most of the political process that does not take place on an even more local level instead occur on the shire-and-city level. The greater share of the actual laws are made on this level. (Yes, each shire and each city has its own legal code... usually based on customary law. None of that Enlightenment-era "Code Napoléon"-codification nonsense in the Empire of Wilhelmus!)
Ironically, none of the above are actually shown on the map. The divisions are basically endless, after all.
The countless shires and cities are united into various Counties, Margravates and Lordships. Most of these are based on the borders of local languages and dialects. Where not based on language, borders are based on religious or cultural divides. These divisions are shown on the map: basically all internal borders shown on the map denote such areas. Politically, Counties, Margravates and Lordships are tasked with little other than education (typically in the local language) and local infrastructure.
The Counties, Margravates and Lordships of the Empire are united into various Duchies and Kingdoms. These are also shown on the map, and are in fact very obviously marked by different colours. This might lead some to believe that the Duchies and Kingdoms are the main political units, but they are not. They merely group together various more local polities that share closely related languages. The Duchies and Kingdoms are chiefly tasked with preserving cultural heritage (registration and maintenance of monuments etc.) and the construction and upkeep of the main infrastructure.
There are also some smaller areas that are culturally distinct and culturally unified. These regions are organised as Grand Duchies. Luxemburg is a prime example. Grand Duchies are directly divided into shires and cities, without an intermediate stage. Furthermore, there are three Principalities (Andorra, Monaco and Liechtenstein), which are very small, and are directly divided into municipal areas (and in the case of Monaco, into urban arrondissements).
Finally, there are the republican regions within the Empire. There are two tiny Republics Principalities (Andorra, Monaco, Liechtenstein) which are directly divided into municipal areas, and there are two larger (Romandie and the Alemannische Schweiz), which are both successor states to Switzerland. Those are divided into cantons, which are in turn divided into municipalities.
On the Imperial level, there is barely a government at all. The main Empire-wide institution is the military. To accommodate the extreme multilingual nature of the Empire, the language of the Imperial government and of the armed forces is Latin. There is an Imperial a "constitution" of sorts, resembling something like the Magna Carta— except that it guarantees rights to all inhabitants, not just to the elite. Emperor Wilhelmus himself is rarely seen, unless someone tries to do something very stupid, like conquer a neighbouring area or something. Then the Wizard-Emperor suddenly appears, and makes the guilty party wish he'd never been so foolish. But as long as nobody makes trouble, it's as if the Imperial government only exists in theory.
Since his appearance, up to the present day, there has only ever been one Emperor. Since he's so rarely seen, it took a while for people to catch on, but after the first hundred year or so, it became pretty clear that Wilhelmus wasn't actually planning to ever die or anything. Ever since his conquest, Europe has been very diverse, and very peaceful. The armed forces of the Empire rarely do any fighting, and mostly exist to ensure nobody ever tries to invade, and to aid in disaster relief where and when needed. There is no draft, but ever since the reforms of 1850, a year of military service has been a requirement to gain the right to vote. (The reforms made it so that the various Dukes, Counts etc. became elected titles, or ceremonial figureheads to rubber-stamp the decisions made by elected Chancellors or such figures.)
After centuries of peace and tranquility, the vast majority of the Europeans wouldn't have it any other way.
(Now, isn't that a completely sensible system? Too bad that the only way it could ever have been established is quite literally "a wizard did it".)
So much good stuff on that map, but then there’s Normandy, endless enclaves, and bordergore that makes the Hapsburgs proud.