WW II Insanity Options

Romania, seeing how the Winter war went, takes on the Soviet union over Bessarabia.

Actually, this could have rather interesting ramifications once Adolf realises his oil supply is under threat.
 
I'd say having Mannerheim either more Pro-Nazi, or be replaced by someone who is, leads to Finnish troops aiding the Germans in capturing Leningrad. If this occurs and is successful, it should be noted that much of the city was due to be razed by the Nazis.

How would the German vic Maybe e ory in Leningrad affect the Eastern Front as a whole? Im not sure. But if the Soviets survive and still win, they will likely be treated worse post war. Maybe even a fully puppet Communist Finland post war.
 
It's possible this is a actually a relatively sane option - it can be hard to tell with WW2 Japan.

Convert the partially completed Yamato class into the world's biggest, meanest, best-armoured carriers ever.

And by 1945, crew them with people who scarcely know what an aircraft is because your training programme sucks.

Meanwhile, use the 18" guns for really badass coastal defences.
 
August 1940: Hitler says ""#$% Goering and his dumbkoff fighters, Sealion is on! Airdrop everyone!"
The UK puts TOG 2 into production.
 
This is more an example of the law of unintended consequences than an insanity option.

The oil in Algeria, French Morocco & Tunisia is discovered in the 1900s. It doesn't prevent the Fall of France and Vichy is forced to supply it to the Axis on terms favourable to Germany & Italy.

As a result Germany & Italy were able to supply Franco with all the oil he asked for. That removed one of the two reasons people give for saying that Spain joining the Axis is ASB. That is Spain was dependent upon oil supplied by the Allies and the Axis didn't have enough oil to satisfy their own requirements, let alone Franco's. The other reason is that Spain was dependent upon food supplied by the Allies and the Axis couldn't supply substitutes.

According to my usual source French North Africa only produced 26,204 long tons of crude petroleum 1940-44 IOTL, but in 1969 Algeria, Morocco & Tunisia produced 46.8 million tons of crude. That is 43.1 million tons by Algeria, only 57,635 tons by Morocco & 3.6 million tons by Tunisia. Morocco's peak year was 147,534 tons in 1963.
 
Last edited:
This is more an example of the law of unintended consequences than an insanity option.

The oil in Algeria, French Morocco & Tunisia is discovered in the 1900s. It doesn't prevent the Fall of France and Vichy is forced to supply it to the Axis on terms favourable to Germany & Italy.

As a result Germany & Italy were able to supply Franco with all the oil he asked for. That removed one of the two reasons people give for saying that Spain joining the Axis is ASB. That is Spain was dependent upon oil supplied by the Allies and the Axis didn't have enough oil to satisfy their own requirements, let alone Franco's. The other reason is that Spain was dependent upon food supplied by the Allies and the Axis couldn't supply substitutes.

According to my usual source French North Africa only produced 26,204 long tons of crude petroleum 1940-44 IOTL, but in 1969 Algeria, Morocco & Tunisia produced 46.8 million tons of crude. That is 43.1 million tons by Algeria, only 57,635 tons by Morocco & 3.6 million tons by Tunisia. Morocco's peak year was 147,534 tons in 1963.
You still have to carry that oil from Africa to Europe. That means tankers and escorts and the RN in Malta and Gibraltar would hunt them. The german navy (at least OTL) can't really provide the numbers and types of escorts required (not to mention being in the wrong ocean), and the italian navy is allready streached with it's escort duties; involving the spanish or Vichy for these duties would end up comiting them to war vs the allies...

Edit: just realised that we could simplify the convoy problem by piping it all to italian-ocupied Lybia, thus allowing the italian navy to add the tankers to their convoys. The Regia Marina would still need reinforcements, but... otoh, not only this would require massive investment (and time) in pipelines, it would also make such pipes a prime target for RAF and Commando raids.
 
Last edited:
You still have to carry that oil from Africa to Europe. That means tankers and escorts and the RN in Malta and Gibraltar would hunt them. The German navy (at least OTL) can't really provide the numbers and types of escorts required, and the Italian navy is already stretched with it's escort duties;
I took that into account before writing Post 86.

Re tankers

The passage from Algeria to Tunisia is shorter than the passage from Italy to Romania so the Italian tankers could make more trips. Therefore, Italy might not be able to use all of French North Africa's production, but it would have got more oil from there than it did from Romania. Also Italy was cut off from its supply of Romanian oil between November 1940 and April 1941 due to being at war with Greece. Being at war with Greece for six months doesn't cut Italy off from its supply of French North African oil.

Furthermore, losses of tankers carrying fuel to Libya are likely to be reduced ITTL so the carrying capacity of Italy's tanker fleet may grow over time. (See below.) Plus Italy might be able to build more tankers 1940-42 ITTL.

There's also the French shipping in the Mediterranean which one of the British official histories said was abundant. The Axis would be able to use the French tankers in the Mediterranean and it's likely that the French merchant marine would have had more tankers ITTL.

Re Escorts

Unless Spain does enter the war the number of escorts Germany could have sent to the Mediterranean is nil.

The RM OTOH had 126 surface torpedo craft in June 1940 and added another 21 by September 1943 plus the 29 corvettes that it completed between June 1940 and September 1943. Losses were admittedly heavy IOTL. In spite of that it suggests that the RM wasn't exactly short of convoy escorts.

AIUI one of the problems with supplying Libya was the capacity of the ports which forced the Italians to send a large number of small and weakly defended convoys. Algeria and Tunisia were more populous countries than Libya with bigger capacity ports so it would have been possible to have a smaller number of more strongly defended convoys.

Also when losses to the convoys to Libya became intolerable the RM ran "battleship convoys" in which the supply ships were escorted by the RM's entire battlefleet. That's something that it could do to protect the tanker traffic from French North Africa and something that it might need to do to protect said traffic form attacks by Force H.

Another problem the RM had IOTL was that as the war progressed the oil shortage prevented it from attacking the Malta convoys in full strength. E.g. there was only enough fuel to attack the August 1942 convoy with one battleship or two at a pinch when six battleships were available. That wouldn't be a problem ITTL. Plus standing orders prevented it from giving battle with the enemy unless it possessed overwhelming strength, something that the oil shortage prevented it from having. ITTL it had more oil so more battleship convoys to Libya & from French North Africa and more opportunities to engage the RN in overwhelming strength.

The tankers taking the oil from French North Africa could hug the coast (and therefore remain within Vichy territorial waters) under escort of the Vichy Navy before turning north at Tunis and coming under the escort of the RM for the run to the Tyrrhenian Sea. Would the British respect Vichy neutrality in this case? There were plenty of occasions when Britain didn't IOTL. However, this occasion might be the one that makes Vichy join the Axis.

Re The British

The British will want to do everything in their power to stop this. What was within their power?

You mentioned Malta as a base of operations. I think an island in the Mediterranean's central basin is unsuitable for attacking shipping in the western basin. It's on the wrong side of the Sicilian Narrows and the British found it hard to adequately supply it as a base to attack the Axis convoys to Libya, let alone attack the Axis tanker traffic in the Western Mediterranean. Plus Malta might fall ITTL (sooner rather than later) because the RM has the fuel to attack the supply convoys in overwhelming strength.

There will be a limit to the number of aircraft, submarines and surface warships that the British can deploy from Gibraltar. That's a function of the physical size of the place and the quantity of supplies that Britain would be able to send.

The Gibraltar to Malta convoys were attacked by Axis aircraft in Sardinia & Sicily IOTL and so will any sorties by Force H against the French North African tanker traffic ITTL. Said tanker traffic would also have been protected by an Italian battlefleet invigorated with Tunisian oil. (See below.)

What's more likely is that the British will do more to help the pro-De Gaulle factions in French North Africa to rebel and join Free France. It will also do all it can to sabotage the North African oil industry, e.g. blowing up the pipelines or at least try to blow them up. French North Africa will also be occupied at the earliest possible opportunity, but that might not be until November 1942.
involving the Spanish or Vichy for these duties would end up committing them to war vs the allies...
That's Hitler and Mussolini's wet dream of wet dreams!

If Spain's in the war Gibraltar immediately becomes untenable as a base because the harbour and airfield would be under constant bombardment from Spanish artillery. It would take longer for Gibraltar to be starved into surrender. According to the British official history it was decided in late 1940 to make the colony capable of withstanding a siege of 6 months. This suggests that Gibraltar was incapable of holding out for as long as 6 months in the summer and autumn of 1940. Therefore, the Mediterranean's western basin rapidly becomes an Axis lake. The Spanish Navy would not have been of any help, because it only had about a dozen destroyers and IIRC were having badly needed refits in June 1940. However, their help wouldn't be needed.

It also means no more convoys from Gibraltar to Malta. Therefore, all the supplies will have to come from Alexandria and there were periods IOTL when that was impossible. E.g. August 1942. Plus running convoys from Alexandria and Gibraltar to Malta forced the Italians to divide their forces so making it harder to attack either of them in overwhelming strength. ITTL the RM could concentrate on the Alexandria to Malta convoys and in even greater strength than OTL because no ships will be left behind for want of oil.

According to the British official history Vichy joining the Axis is not as ASB as people may think, because it says that it was touch-and-go whether Vichy would declare war on Great Britain or not in the week after Mers El Kébir. Yes most of the French Empire is seized by Free France with British assistance. However, a lot of the French Empire joined Free France before Operation Torch and most of them wouldn't have been of use to the Axis in any case. The important ones are French North Africa and Dakar which are the ones that Vichy is most likely to hold onto.

Vichy joining the Axis solves the (exaggerated) escort problem at a stroke because the French warships in the Western Mediterranean become available. Plus one of the things said by gainsayers in Vichy joins the Axis threads is that even if the entire MN remained loyal to Vichy (which admittedly is doubtful) it would be a fleet in being because the Axis couldn't supply it with oil. No problem supplying the MN with oil ITTL. Although some of the ships outside the Mediterranean would use that fuel to steam straight for the nearest British or Free French controlled port.
 
Last edited:
Still have to convince Franco, tbh. Oil & food weren't the only problems, those were just the top ones and those he mostly used. Economically Spain was a shambles after the civil war, and it's armed forces were in very poor state. The single division Spain sent to the eastern front had to be fully equiped and supported by Germany. Imagine having to help rebuilt & support most of the spanish army and air force, so that they could help more. Germany couldn't even supply itself and it's closer allies (Finland, Hungary, etc) properly. Ideally, one should also convince Hitler that, yes, grabbing Malta is a very good idea. It would put a permanent end to British presence and (most of) threat to the central Med.

Also, this would drag Portugal into the war, one way or another, which means the allies would immediatly grad the Açores, closing much of the air gap on the atlantic... win some, loose some.

Still, this thread is for "insanity options" so, hooray banzai this. :openedeyewink:
 
Still have to convince Franco, tbh. Oil & food weren't the only problems, those were just the top ones and those he mostly used. Economically Spain was a shambles after the civil war, and it's armed forces were in very poor state. The single division Spain sent to the eastern front had to be fully equiped and supported by Germany. Imagine having to help rebuilt & support most of the spanish army and air force, so that they could help more. Germany couldn't even supply itself and it's closer allies (Finland, Hungary, etc) properly. Ideally, one should also convince Hitler that, yes, grabbing Malta is a very good idea. It would put a permanent end to British presence and (most of) threat to the central Med.

Also, this would drag Portugal into the war, one way or another, which means the allies would immediatly grad the Açores, closing much of the air gap on the atlantic... win some, loose some.

Still, this thread is for "insanity options" so, hooray banzai this. :openedeyewink:
FWIW (1)

I'm not convinced that Spain in the Axis automatically drags Portugal into the war. However, the British may have set air bases up in the Azores sooner ITTL by invoking the Treaty of Windsor sooner.

FWIW (2)

It's not Spain's armed forces. It's Spain's location.
  • It forces the RN out of Gibraltar, thus turning the Western Mediterranean into an Axis lake.
  • It provides the Kriegsmarine & Maritime Luftwaffe with bases that are closer to the British convoy routes. Especially, for U-boats operating in the South Atlantic & Indian Oceans.
  • Said bases are harder for the British to blockade than the bases on the Atlantic coast of France because they're further from SW England.
  • The above is particularly important for the surface raiders, which once the coast artillery at Gibraltar is neutralised can be refitted in the dockyards on the west coast of Italy. They're better equipped than Cadiz & Ferrol and have more compliant dockyard workers than the French Atlantic ports.
  • It's easier to send U-boats to the Mediterranean. IIRC something like 10 of the first 30 sent IOTL were sunk or forced to turn back.
  • Italian surface warships can be sent to the Atlantic.
  • It doesn't make it easier for Italian submarines to get in and out of the Mediterranean because they worked out how pass the Strait of Gibraltar without the British noticing before the war.
FWIW (3)

IMHO it was fortunate that the surviving ships in the Spanish Navy were in poor condition in the summer of 1940 because its cruisers and large destroyers would have been good commerce raiders. Due to being built to British designs they'd have been seaworthy, had reliable machinery and half-decent endurance. Things that can't be said about some of Germany's surface fleet. Plus it's easier to break into the Atlantic from Cadiz and Ferrol than from Kiel and Wilhelmshaven.

The best ship in the Spanish Navy was the heavy cruiser Canarias which was a modified version of the British Kent class and designed by Sir Phillip Watts. It was fortunate that her sister Baleares was sunk in the Civil War and her other sister Ferrol wasn't built. The second best ships were the 3 Alfonso class light cruisers of 7,500 tons which were a modified version of the British E class and also designed by Sir Phillip Watts. The 12 Churruca class destroyers were based on the British Scott class flotilla leaders and 11 survived the Civil War.

Therefore, in a TL where the Coup of 1936 succeeded or there'd been a shorter & less destructive Spanish Civil War the Spanish Navy would have been able to form two raiding squadrons. One consisting of the Canarias class cruisers & 6 Churruca class destroyers and one consisting of the 3 Alfonso class cruisers & 6 Churruca class destroyers.

FWIW(4)

Many people would think Franco taking Spain into the Axis was an insanity option, because they think he would only have done that if he was insane.
 
Last edited:
FWIW (1)

I'm not convinced that Spain in the Axis automatically drags Portugal into the war although the increased threat to shipping in the Mediterranean. However, the British may have set air bases up in the Azores sooner ITTL by invoking the Treaty of Windsor sooner.
It would. Franco even mentioned the possibilty to Hitler, and the general plans were uncovered a few years ago. (article in spanish) And, let's face in, in 1940 there was nothing the UK could do to help us in time.
 
Surely that's a winner if backed by Willpower, Destiny, Inherent Superiority and Stylish Outfits?
Stylish outfits? Those red armbands with that funny black cross in them just clash with their brown uniforms. Whoever designed that must have been colorblind
 
The civil war in Spain was still rumbling on with the Army still clearing hold outs in rural areas only really ending in about 1944.

SOE will be happy to help anyone with a grudge. I can see the entire Spanish armed forces rushing around trying to put down insurrections and secure the cities from small armed groups.

As for Gibraltar it will take months for the Spanish army to gather the resources for an attack. Did they even have the artillery they would need I guess it would have to come from Germany.
 
As for Gibraltar it will take months for the Spanish army to gather the resources for an attack. Did they even have the artillery they would need I guess it would have to come from Germany.
No, they didn't. I remember reading part of a german report, from someone who had been inspecting the spanish army; apparently what little heavy artillery Spain still had had most of it's tubes completely worn out from the war. All would have to be replaced. And, because of the diferences in railway gauge, I don't think transferring german railguns would be feasible...

And very good point on the remnants of the civil war. Getting weapons and suppplies to those groups would cause major headaches to the spanish and german.
 
Switzerland invades Germany.

This starts with a cunning plan of sending exploding cuckoo clocks to senior Nazis and officers, all set to go off on D-Day.
 
Not sure if this is insanity or not but let's assume Britain remains isolationist but France convinces it's eastern European allies of Poland and Czechoslovakia to go to war with Germany over Anschluss or Sudetenland or similar.
 
Italy not only invades France in 1940, but also takes on Tunisia.

This might not actually be completely nuts if enough of the colonial troops in Tunisia had left for mainland France, but the Mareth Line was in reasonable condition at the time.
 
Not sure if this is insanity or not but let's assume Britain remains isolationist but France convinces it's eastern European allies of Poland and Czechoslovakia to go to war with Germany over Anschluss or Sudetenland or similar.
Maybe France could respond to the Anschluss by invading Germany, by way of Belgium.
 
Germany decides bombers and heavy artillery are old hat,brings forward the V1 programme instead, leaving the Luftwaffe with only Bf109, Stuka, Me110 and the army has nothing heavier than 6"/150mm.
While there would be considerable disruption to enemy rear areas, I suspect it would end up like the Long Lance - very effective if it hits, but.....
 
Top