Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond

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EnglishCanuck

EnglishCanuck

Nenshou Yuuki said:
The problem with the US buying Alaska is currently the Union's just straight up broke right now and is fixing a devasted country and will have to radically restructure its economy and trade what with it losing eleven (possibly twelve depending on what happened with Kentucky.) states, that's something that's going to take a long time, especially with a middling president like McClennan in charge. It could take a decade for America to recover but from what the Author told us, the new era is one of Hard Feelings, so the near future doesn't look too bright.
Russia's not gonna want to sell it for nothing and they certainly don't want the Brits to have it so they'll just sit on it and basically leave it to fend for itself, Britain for its own part isn't really gonna be interested in starting a war over Alaska so I can easily see Russia keeping Alaska well in to the 20th century depending on how WW1 turns out.
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Urubis said:
The issue is that Russia if it sits on the land it will lose it.
Unfortunately Russia cannot just hold onto Alaska, soon there will be thousands of Americans and Canadians streaming into Alaska for another gold rush. They will easily out populate the local Russian population (unless there a huge demographic shift I missed). Canadians and American settlers won't obey Russian law/Orthodox Religion. Though I do see a longer lasting Russian influence in the area, I cannot see it lasting into 1900. Also, 7 million still isn't that much for any of the American states, and it could be a good poltical win for an embattled President.
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These are all big reasons why, sooner rather than later, Russia will feel compelled to part with Alaska to someone, preferably the US. Hanging on to Alaska has no serious long term gains from the Tsar's point of view, and it is indefensible by Russian arms, and all to easily seized by Britain in another potential war.

However, Russia will soon have another issue to consider on its Pacific slope that will dwarf the Alaska matter.
 
EnglishCanuck

EnglishCanuck

Ironshark said:
I just have to say that I can't wait to see what a English Canuck written 20th century War looks like.

especially if it's us vs uk .that scenario somehow doesn't get enough attention on here IMO and when it does its bashing one of them
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Thank you! I will say though that the level of detail devoted to the Great American War will not be imported onto any other conflict, this was a 6+ year project that I'm only just finishing!

Expect slightly less detail and shorter(ish) chapters which will define future wars. I won't get as technical, with some exceptions on major battles.

Kurd Gossemer said:
Same, I really hope to see how the alt Paraguayan war he talked about will end up as well as the eventual UK and Friends vs Russia and Friends
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I do indeed have plans for this alt War of the Triple Alliance as I've been doing some reading on the subject. It will get more mentions in the 1865 and 1866 Year in Review chapters, which will probably sprawl off on their own as the butterflies keep twirling. Mexico, though, will begin being intertwined into the deeper narrative as the war in the US ends and we need to broaden our horizons in North America...
 
Pax_Nihil

Pax_Nihil

EnglishCanuck said:
Thank you! I will say though that the level of detail devoted to the Great American War will not be imported onto any other conflict, this was a 6+ year project that I'm only just finishing!

Expect slightly less detail and shorter(ish) chapters which will define future wars. I won't get as technical, with some exceptions on major battles.



I do indeed have plans for this alt War of the Triple Alliance as I've been doing some reading on the subject. It will get more mentions in the 1865 and 1866 Year in Review chapters, which will probably sprawl off on their own as the butterflies keep twirling. Mexico, though, will begin being intertwined into the deeper narrative as the war in the US ends and we need to broaden our horizons in North America...
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Soon... finishing....? WHAT WHAT WHAT?
 
EnglishCanuck

EnglishCanuck

SenatorChickpea said:
Ah- I take it Zeng Guofan doesn't entirely hold to the treaties the Qing signed in their twilight?
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In the immediate aftermath he's got to, mostly because he's dependent on their weapons and he knows they've torched Beijing before (which he's about to do). So for the moment he's semi dependent on the Western powers, but that won't always be the case.

There's going to be less room to abuse China in the latter half of the 19th century, but that will come with some interesting developments in the 1860s and 70s.
 

Red_Galiray

EnglishCanuck said:
Thank you! I will say though that the level of detail devoted to the Great American War will not be imported onto any other conflict, this was a 6+ year project that I'm only just finishing!

Expect slightly less detail and shorter(ish) chapters which will define future wars. I won't get as technical, with some exceptions on major battles.



I do indeed have plans for this alt War of the Triple Alliance as I've been doing some reading on the subject. It will get more mentions in the 1865 and 1866 Year in Review chapters, which will probably sprawl off on their own as the butterflies keep twirling. Mexico, though, will begin being intertwined into the deeper narrative as the war in the US ends and we need to broaden our horizons in North America...
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I imagine there's a slightly mournful feeling that comes with finishing the main part of such a long project, and a feeling of "now what?" It's truly an achievement that you have kept this up for 6-7 years, especially given the quality of the project. I then can completely understand if future updates are quicker and with significantly less detail - after all, we all, you and your readers, came here for the alt-Civil War. Don't get me wrong, I truly hope this can continue, as long as you are willing and able. I just meant to emphasize how big a deal it is that you've almost finished exploring the central premise of the TL. Here are my heartfelt congratulations and thanks.
 
EnglishCanuck

EnglishCanuck

Red_Galiray said:
I imagine there's a slightly mournful feeling that comes with finishing the main part of such a long project, and a feeling of "now what?" It's truly an achievement that you have kept this up for 6-7 years, especially given the quality of the project. I then can completely understand if future updates are quicker and with significantly less detail - after all, we all, you and your readers, came here for the alt-Civil War. Don't get me wrong, I truly hope this can continue, as long as you are willing and able. I just meant to emphasize how big a deal it is that you've almost finished exploring the central premise of the TL. Here are my heartfelt congratulations and thanks.
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My sincere thanks! Coming from someone whose written one of the absolute best alt-Civil War timelines on the website, that is high praise indeed!
 

DarkAvenger

Out of curiosity and hope I am not asking out of turn, but based on Chapter 105, did the US become an active participant in the Great War? I know this is far into the future of this TL but based on that chapter that states that in the aftermath of the Great War, Lincoln's legacy received critical examination until the 1940s, it suggests that the New Men were discredited because the US lost the Great War and was subjected to a Treaty of Versailles that basically guts the US for decades so it cannot threaten Canada again although it might just be a negotiated peace because neither side wants to be enemies forever and 50 years is a long time for geopolitics to change.

Edit:
I realized that this critical examination would have occurred 50 years after the Great American War so it might just be done on the semicentennial which is why the chapter wrote 'naturally' rather than 'consequently'. But why take 50 years rather than sooner or later?

Also edit:
Another thought that occurred to me but I think most of us can agree that ITTL the US is not going to be the superpower like OTL. Is the story setting up for the British Empire becoming the superpower? I mean, not in its current form but as a British Federation or Commonwealth given there is the Kingdom of Canada and New Zealand might become part of Australia rather than a separate entity.
 
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EnglishCanuck

EnglishCanuck

DarkAvenger said:
Out of curiosity and hope I am not asking out of turn, but based on Chapter 105, did the US become an active participant in the Great War? I know this is far into the future of this TL but based on that chapter that states that in the aftermath of the Great War, Lincoln's legacy received critical examination until the 1940s, it suggests that the New Men were discredited because the US lost the Great War and was subjected to a Treaty of Versailles that basically guts the US for decades so it cannot threaten Canada again although it might just be a negotiated peace because neither side wants to be enemies forever and 50 years is a long time for geopolitics to change.
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Not a huge spoiler, but the US does end up on one side of the war. Though why Lincoln's legacy is examined has more to do with internal politics versus external factors.

Lincoln's willingness to trample civil rights in the name of preserving the Union and ending slavery is something future historians will consider.

DarkAvenger said:
Also edit:
Another thought that occurred to me but I think most of us can agree that ITTL the US is not going to be the superpower like OTL. Is the story setting up for the British Empire becoming the superpower? I mean, not in its current form but as a British Federation or Commonwealth given there is the Kingdom of Canada and New Zealand might become part of Australia rather than a separate entity.
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Great power status yes, super power status is unlikely. The US is drifting in a very different direction thanks to its immediate problems, so its ability to meddle in the world will be sharply curtailed to the end of the 19th century.
 

MonarchistCanuck

EnglishCanuck said:
Great power status yes, super power status is unlikely. The US is drifting in a very different direction thanks to its immediate problems, so its ability to meddle in the world will be sharply curtailed to the end of the 19th century.
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Even without the South the US still has a massive geographical advantage over the European Great Powers that would only grow over time... provided of course they still hold control over the rest of their OTL territory (minus the South) by the mid-20th Century. I still haven't forgotten your claim of a "drastically" different map of North America, so would this lack of becoming a superpower be due to lack of  ability or lack of  will? 🤔

And I haven't even mentioned potential neighbours either... (such as Maximilian's Mexico for example?)
 
EnglishCanuck

EnglishCanuck

MonarchistCanuck said:
Even without the South the US still has a massive geographical advantage over the European Great Powers that would only grow over time... provided of course they still hold control over the rest of their OTL territory (minus the South) by the mid-20th Century. I still haven't forgotten your claim of a "drastically" different map of North America, so would this lack of becoming a superpower be due to lack of  ability or lack of  will? 🤔

And I haven't even mentioned potential neighbours either... (such as Maximilian's Mexico for example?)
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Part of it is the new geography, part of it is changing political priorities, and another part of it will be the geopolitical situation at the start of the 20th century. Some of what you'll see in the late 19th century and early 20th century will be about that. Different powers, different alliances, different priorities. There will be competition for parts of the world.

However, there's also not going to be a situation where you have the US and Russia squaring off in a cold war sidelining all other powers wrecked by a second global war...
 
EnglishCanuck

EnglishCanuck

The Gunslinger said:
The Great War pretty well lines up with the American urge to conquer Canada every fifty years...
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The militant Canadian populace post-war, well, they may have something to say about that. One of the big post-war politics debates is going to be over defence.

MonarchistCanuck said:
But he also said he would be avoiding TL-191 analogues as well...
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That I absolutely am! So don't expect that as an analogue going forward.
 

Captain Seafort

EnglishCanuck said:
The militant Canadian populace post-war, well, they may have something to say about that. One of the big post-war politics debates is going to be over defence.
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I also assume, based on the fact that they've had their country lopped in half and had bites taken from round the edges, that the US won't be spending the next two centuries trying to pretend they won this one?
 
EnglishCanuck

EnglishCanuck

Captain Seafort said:
I also assume, based on the fact that they've had their country lopped in half and had bites taken from round the edges, that the US won't be spending the next two centuries trying to pretend they won this one?
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Oh certainly not. The War of 1812 will be less seen as a success and more of a draw, especially as the naval lessons are more starkly compared in this war. Essentially, Britain's uncontested control of the seas is going to spur American naval development, and the embarrassing defeats at places like the Florida Keys, Massachusetts Bay, Cape Henelopen and Golden Gate showed the, despite its valor, the US Navy was not up to the task of protecting its coasts - and even the inland water ways were not fully protected.

The US will certainly feel that they lost the War of 1862, with Canadians believing they won it with British help, but that it was largely the rallying of the Canadian militia which protected their homes.
 

Ironshark

Us can't invade canada again cause they would have a larger chance of winning and we know canada survives to the present day


however the author also stated that the CSA gets "what's coming to it" to badly paraphrase "not quite godzila "


so canada and the CSA will be on other sides or factions in the great war
even if one is neutral and the other isn't
 
EnglishCanuck

EnglishCanuck

Ironshark said:
Us can't invade canada again cause they would have a larger chance of winning and we know canada survives to the present day


however the author also stated that the CSA gets "what's coming to it" to badly paraphrase "not quite godzila "


so canada and the CSA will be on other sides or factions in the great war
even if one is neutral and the other isn't
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Hmmm, partially a geography issue, partially an international politics issue. For Britain, I encourage to think of their reactions to some coming events of the 19th century in terms of "Splendid Isolation" but also that they will be pivoting to a number of broader global threats in Asia, Europe and Africa by the end of the century.

North America will be no less a political minefield, but the US can't afford to focus on just Canada either. The new cleavage of the US in two is not going to do wonders for national domestic unity.

But as a reminder, the Monroe Doctrine is now dead and buried, which means more European poking around in the Americas for better or for worse...
 
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