WI: Yamato is sent to the Solomon Islands

What would the outcome be if...

A: The Yamato was accompanying the bombardment task force during the battle of Guadacanal alongside the Kirishima and Hiei.

B: The Yamato was in place of Kirishima and engaged the South Dakota and then got engaged by the Washington.

C: The Yamato engages the South Dakota and the Washington and sinks both battleships.

In regards to C, if that did happen how far would the US go to hunt the Yamato as revenge and would they be successful if she made a quick retreat after the battle?
 

NothingNow

Banned
First thing: How the hell did they manage to scrounge up the fuel to send the Yamato to the Solomons?

The Kongo class got used as much as they did because they didn't burn through fuel like crazy. The Yamato well, did.

Also, the Yamato wouldn't do too well in a duel with the South Dakota and Washington. It wouldn't be able to afford the fuel usage needed to maneuver with them.
 

CalBear

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Be an interesting engagement. Yamato was a very serious warship, but so was the South Dakota (Washington somewhat less so). Also, if the IJN has decided to go all in to this level it is likely that at least one or two other real heavies are along for the ride. If the USN knows that there are going to be four-six battleships engaged (something that they would know, not just from intercepts, but from direct aerial observations of the Japanese force and the engagement of November 13-14), it is very possible that Halsey doesn't send Admiral Lee into harm's way (Halsey was aggressive, not stupid).

Another interesting bit is if the Yamato can actually hit anything. Based on her limited action, that is sort of an open question, actually IJN battleship gunnery was sort of an open question overall. On the other hand bith USN ships had excellent gun radars, and unlike many of their contemporaries, were actually well drilled in the usage of the systems.

All the ships can, at the ranges involved, hurt the others. A reasonable question is if Yamato can kill her opponents before she has to break off to escape the vengeance of the Cactus Air Force.

The USN wouldn't go looking for revenge. When the chance arose, as IOTL, they would collect her.
 
First thing: How the hell did they manage to scrounge up the fuel to send the Yamato to the Solomons?

The Kongo class got used as much as they did because they didn't burn through fuel like crazy. The Yamato well, did.

Also, the Yamato wouldn't do too well in a duel with the South Dakota and Washington. It wouldn't be able to afford the fuel usage needed to maneuver with them.

Something a lot of people don't realize is that Yamato was actually one of if not the the most maneuverable battleships built during the war due to her hull.
 
I thought the IJN had enough fuel for such a mission in absolute terms, but fuel was in sufficiently short supply to make it not worth sending the Yamato on a hit-and-run mission. If the Yamato had showed up during the Naval Battles of Guadalcanal, it would have made things more difficult for the the United States Navy and Marines. If nothing else, the Yamato is a honking big target that's brutally difficult to sink. Better the Yamato limps off to fight another day than the Hiei getting wasted.
 
The only way this'll happen is if the ship had about several more knots to her name. As I learned from the experience of asking the question of Yamato (Calbear why you so nice to him?) would've made it a bigger battleship, not the Super Battleship we know, love, and keep rebooting in space.
 
Another interesting bit is if the Yamato can actually hit anything. Based on her limited action, that is sort of an open question, actually IJN battleship gunnery was sort of an open question overall.

I thought there was some controversy about the Yamato making the longest range gunnery hit in history at Leyte Gulf by hitting USS Gambier Bay. I take it you don't think much of those claims?

A reasonable question is if Yamato can kill her opponents before she has to break off to escape the vengeance of the Cactus Air Force.

Is the Cactus Air Force that threatening to Yamato and company? The Yamato and Musashi were sunk when they charged head-on towards multiple fast carrier task forces, absorbing tons of hits in the process. Are the air assets at Guadalcanal strong enough to do anything more than sink an already crippled vessel?
 
What would even be the reaction in the US if the US lost 1-2 BB's overnight due to this mysterious ship which they had very little knowledge of. (They barely even knew it existed at that point)
 

NothingNow

Banned
Something a lot of people don't realize is that Yamato was actually one of if not the the most maneuverable battleships built during the war due to her hull.

At speed.

I don't think the IJN has anywhere near the capability to actually support having her and a decent sized force in the Solomons engaging in combat maneuvers. Especially not if it means refueling the Yamato.

It's really only made worse because she's 3kts slower than the ships she'd likely be operating with (the Kongo-class) and against, but uses dramatically more fuel, and is much slower to accelerate or decelerate because of her absurd displacement.

I could see the USN just hunting the logistical tail needed to support her squadron while drawing the Yamato herself into a series of night fights to contain the beast while bleeding everything behind it dry.
 
I thought there was some controversy about the Yamato making the longest range gunnery hit in history at Leyte Gulf by hitting USS Gambier Bay. I take it you don't think much of those claims?

She also scored an underwater hit on USS White Plains, sunk USS Hoel with her secondary guns, and scored the first hit on USS Johnston-the hit traditionally credited to Kongou.

I'm not just pulling this out of my ass: I got it from The World Wonder'd: What Really Happened Off Samar, by Robert Lundgren. It gives a very detailed, if rather dry, account of the battle. Also, it disproves the myth that Yamato made no contribution to the battle. As a matter of fact, she performed the best out of all the IJN ships present.
 

CalBear

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The only way this'll happen is if the ship had about several more knots to her name. As I learned from the experience of asking the question of Yamato (Calbear why you so nice to him?) would've made it a bigger battleship, not the Super Battleship we know, love, and keep rebooting in space.

There is that. Three or four knots is a BIG deal in this scenario. The Japanese had to make a 300 mile sprint from Ontong Java Atoll to the waters off Guadalcanal. That seriously reduces the time the Japanese force can remain engaged, probably by 45 minutes to an hour.

Yamato is also physically a BIG ship, 862 feet long, 140' longer than Kirishima or Washington, nearly 200' longer than South Dakota, while having both more beam (by 20'+) and a marginally deeper draft (although there was enough water in the immediate battle area to make this a negligible issue, it was a big concern to the Japanese). That is a considerable disadvantage in the really close water off Guadalcanal, even if she did turn well.

I thought there was some controversy about the Yamato making the longest range gunnery hit in history at Leyte Gulf by hitting USS Gambier Bay. I take it you don't think much of those claims?



Is the Cactus Air Force that threatening to Yamato and company? The Yamato and Musashi were sunk when they charged head-on towards multiple fast carrier task forces, absorbing tons of hits in the process. Are the air assets at Guadalcanal strong enough to do anything more than sink an already crippled vessel?

I don't so much dispute the claims, as consider them to be more luck than excellence (same goes for most really long range hits with an opening salvo, regardless of who fired the shell, cold barrel, estimated speed of the enemy, estimated range, estimated everything). This is particularly true for her hits since they believed that they were firing at a ship double the size and 50% faster than the actual target, meaning the range estimates were, well, wrong. Make your own conclusions.

As far as the air assets- they will be going after a damaged ship. Yamato gets into a fight with TF 64 and every ship is going to open up on her (by far the largest radar return, biggest visual target, and unmistakable for a U.S. vessel. She was so distinctive that South Dakota would have been able to identify her even after the engineering casualty she suffered (Yamato had a single funnel, Washington had two). They don't have to sink her, all they have to do is hurt her badly enough that she can't get away. If she can only make 5 knots due to damage she will be in range for days, and will have every U.S. sub in the Southwest Pacific gunning for her. As bad as the torpedoes were, enough are eventually going to work & that's all she wrote.

If you mean the Japanese couldn't know she would be damaged, well, they already had one BB killed in the same waters, assuming another won't even be damaged would be unprofessional, and Yamamoto was very much a professional.

edit: It is also worth remembering that battleships don't sink each other very often. They will beat the hell out of each other, but sink? Not so Much. Both Hood and Kirishima were hopped up battlecruisers. The Kongo class rebuild was, while not a joke, as least an amusing story. Hiei's MAIN BELT was penetrated by San Francisco's 8" guns (that was what disabled her steering gear, eventually leading to her scuttling). What would likely happen here is, even if Yamato came out ahead, there would be a REALLY BIG U.S. ship or two anchored off Guadalcanal the next morning with some really huge holes in it.
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
Not good for the IJN ... two DIFFERENT battles, on sucessive nights

What would the outcome be if...

A: The Yamato was accompanying the bombardment task force during the battle of Guadacanal alongside the Kirishima and Hiei.

B: The Yamato was in place of Kirishima and engaged the South Dakota and then got engaged by the Washington.

C: The Yamato engages the South Dakota and the Washington and sinks both battleships.

In regards to C, if that did happen how far would the US go to hunt the Yamato as revenge and would they be successful if she made a quick retreat after the battle?

a) Yamato gets to be the punching bag for EVERY USN ship in the Friday the 13th battle; can you say Mission Kill? I think you can...

b) On the off-chance that somehow Yamato survives Friday the 13th, and Kirishima gets picked on instead, Yamato is still around during the day of the 14th, and gets every Allied aircraft in the theater taking a shot at her; presumably even B-17s and PBYs coming up from Espiritu Santo.

c) Not going to happen; after being beat up for a day and night, odds are than having 18 16 inch guns, radar-laid, gunning for her at point blank range is not going to end well.

Obviously, if the IJN risks three fast capital ships off Guadalcanal 13-14 November, 1942, at least one of them is not going to make it back home.

It very well could be Yamato, at which point whoever ordered her in (Yamamoto?) is going to seriously consider a career change.

Best,
 
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Sargon

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It seems Yamamoto did consider sending his super BBs to Guadalcanal after criticisms by the IJA that the IJN wasn't doing enough, but misgivings saw an end to whatever very tenuous plans there may have been on that score. He was well aware of the speed and fuel issues and was very reluctant to send them in.

However, during my gaming sessions (using a tweaked version of Seekrieg 5), I have indeed done this scenario as part of an AH project which saw some earlier changes to events. I used Musashi in one scenario due to the fact in previous gaming scenarios, Yamato had been damaged by submarine attack and was being repaired, and other BBs were also unavailable due to various reasons, therefore forcing her use despite the various concerns. Thus the scenario was only possible due to various circumstances that happened before it and didn't exist OTL. The scenario was gamed a number of times to see what would happen. It usually resulted in a vicious night battle with both sides coming out with varying degrees of bruising.

The result of the most favourable game out of this scenario in terms of damage done to the USN was she was heavily damaged, practically a mission kill, and although she struggled back, wound up in dock for around a year. Washington was the only BB present in this situation due to South Dakota having an earlier run in with Hiei and Kirishima, and having to withdraw for repairs after suffering heavy damage. Hiei was sunk and Kirishima seriously damaged in that battle, although Washington only suffered very light damage. In the Musashi battle, Washington was sunk, but the close range fight, Washington's radar directed hits, confined waters and torpedo attacks saw Musashi take a beating. It was a confused night action. Musashi's better armour on her secondaries compared to Yamato at least helped out a little in that battle to an extent though.

So the likely result is a battered superdreadnought with a load of fuel used up, and the long term result not actually helping the war effort much. It's not impossible a better tactical result could have been gained with her suffering less damage, but that's still not going to alter the big picture hugely. At least the IJA would have been somewhat mollified though, which I'm sure the IJN would have felt it was worth it (not).

As an aside, this causes me to remember there was an AH challenge years ago where the OP wanted us to get all four Iowa class BBs sunk up to the present day. I was going to post my AH gaming results in that one (real life intervened though and I failed to post anything), but even my gaming scenarios didn't manage to sink them all in WW2, and it was up to the post war period to accomplish that elsewhere.

I did manage to write up a whole AH Pacific War using various gamed scenarios although only my AH Battle of Leyte Gulf has been put on the net. Despite some better (or luckier?) results, the Japanese still lose the war though, as is to be expected. ;)

Regarding Lundgren's book. He is well known over at various boards for his various contributions at combinedfleet.com, and also at warships1 (can't believe how many years have passed since I first participated there). His book is an interesting and persuasive minute-by-minute read using logical analysis, ship's logs, action reports, and photographs/film stills from the battle to match things up, although it does have some issues. Rather dry as noted above, though.


Sargon
 
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fred1451

Banned
It seems Yamamoto did consider sending his super BBs to Guadalcanal after criticisms by the IJA that the IJN wasn't doing enough, but misgivings saw an end to whatever very tenuous plans there may have been on that score. He was well aware of the speed and fuel issues and was very reluctant to send them in.

However, during my gaming sessions (using a tweaked version of Seekrieg 5), I have indeed done this scenario as part of an AH project which saw some earlier changes to events. I used Musashi in one scenario due to the fact in previous gaming scenarios, Yamato had been damaged by submarine attack and was being repaired, and other BBs were also unavailable due to various reasons, therefore forcing her use despite the various concerns. Thus the scenario was only possible due to various circumstances that happened before it and didn't exist OTL. The scenario was gamed a number of times to see what would happen. It usually resulted in a vicious night battle with both sides coming out with varying degrees of bruising.

The result of the most favourable game out of this scenario in terms of damage done to the USN was she was heavily damaged, practically a mission kill, and although she struggled back, wound up in dock for around a year. Washington was the only BB present in this situation due to South Dakota having an earlier run in with Hiei and Kirishima, and having to withdraw for repairs after suffering heavy damage. Hiei was sunk and Kirishima seriously damaged in that battle, although Washington only suffered very light damage. In the Musashi battle, Washington was sunk, but the close range fight, Washington's radar directed hits, confined waters and torpedo attacks saw Musashi take a beating. It was a confused night action. Musashi's better amour on her secondaries compared to Yamato at least helped out a little in that battle to an extent though.

So the likely result is a battered superdreadnought with a load of fuel used up, and the long term result not actually helping the war effort much. It's not impossible a better tactical result could have been gained with her suffering less damage, but that's still not going to alter the big picture hugely. At least the IJA would have been somewhat mollified though, which I'm sure the IJN would have felt it was worth it (not).

As an aside, this causes me to remember there was an AH challenge years ago where the OP wanted us to get all four Iowa class BBs sunk up to the present day. I was going to post my AH gaming results in that one (real life intervened though and I failed to post anything), but even my gaming scenarios didn't manage to sink them all in WW2, and it was up to the post war period to accomplish that elsewhere.

I did manage to write up a whole AH Pacific War using various gamed scenarios although only my AH Battle of Leyte Gulf has been put on the net. Despite some better (or luckier?) results, the Japanese still lose the war though, as is to be expected. ;)

Regarding Lundgren's book. He is well known over at various boards for his various contributions at combinedfleet.com, and also at warships1 (can't believe how many years have passed since I first participated there). His book is an interesting and persuasive minute-by-minute read using logical analysis, ship's logs, action reports, and photographs/film stills from the battle to match things up, although it does have some issues. Rather dry as noted above, though.


Sargon
If the Yamato got seriously mauled, would the Japanese have the resources to fix her?
 
The one issue with this is that Yamato and Musashi were decisive weapons. They were supposed to be used only in a decisive engagement and IJN clearly did not see Guadalcanal, or Solomones for that matter, as such. Had they seen it as such, the entire Kido Butai would have been sent, not just the 5th Carrier Division.

The entire IJN battle line (save for the fast battleships that were working with Kido Butai or what remained of it) was kept at hand for a hoped for and expected decisive engagement somewhere off Phillipines.
 
a) Yamato gets to be the punching bag for EVERY USN ship in the Friday the 13th battle; can you say Mission Kill? I think you can...

b) On the off-chance that someone Yamato survives Friday the 13th, and Kirishima gets picked on instead, Yamato is still around during the day of the 14th, and gets every Allied aircraft in the theater taking a shot at her; presumably even B-17s and PBYs coming up from Espiritu Santo.

c) Not going to happen; after being beat up for a day and night, odds are than having 18 16 inch guns, radar-laid, gunning for her at point blank range is not going to end well.

Obviously, if the IJN risks three fast capital ships off Guadalcanal 13-14 November, 1942, at least one of them is not going to make it back home.

It very well could be Yamato, at which point whoever ordered her in (Yamamoto?) is going to seriously consider a career change.

Best,

B-b-b-but APOD says that Yamato would kick the asses of all the US battleships!:rolleyes:
 
B-b-b-but APOD says that Yamato would kick the asses of all the US battleships!:rolleyes:

To be fair in a very specific set of circumstances she could beat up any US ship and hell they could happen if things break right. What you need is either one of the New BB's or up to two of the older BB's to get closer to her then need be to make sure their shot hits, the battle must take place in daylight, the Y must be on her A-Game and the 18 inchers need to hit the armor plating of the US BB's in just the right spot to penetrate it.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yeah, there is that...

B-b-b-but APOD says that Yamato would kick the asses of all the US battleships!:rolleyes:

Yeah, there is that...:rolleyes:

The point is that quantity has a quality all of its own; when one combines quantity with quality - as in the USN in WW II - there's really no way that exemplars and outliers (wonder weapons or not) are going to make a significant difference.

From 1941-45, the Japanese commissioned (roughly) a half dozen capital ships and fleet carriers (Shokaku, Zuikaku, Yamato, Musashi, Taiho, maybe Unryu if one squints)...

The USN commissioned Hornet, 14 Essex class fast carriers, 10 fast battleships, and two battlecruisers ... and rebuilt, almost from the keel up, the Big 5 Standards, for that matter.

4 or 5 to 1 odds in modern capital ships is rather indicative, one would think.;)

Best,
 
As CalBear and others note, few BB vs BB engagements are truly decisive in the sense of ships actually sunk. Even assuming a Japanese force containing Yamato is victorious against the two US battleships in theatre, the IJN could probably only claim an early tactical victory as the battered US battleships are forced to retire. The US would be well equipped to repair and enhance its damaged ships andYamato herself would probably receive substantial damage. The capability of the Japanese ship building industry to both repair damaged ships and build new ones, was less than exemplary, to put it mildly.

But the whole situation is highly unlikely. Japan lacked the resources to commit its battle fleet to the Solomons and this went against the whole "decisive battle" myth anyway.
 
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