WI: Ottomans march on Moscow?

Ottoman Turk language, religion and culture is closer to Crimean Turkic than French culture is to Polish, which is an entirely unrelated ethnic group and language.


That’s not all that relevant here. Crimea around 1700 simply isn’t a good place to invade from. It’s poor and insecure. It can’t sustain an invasion force of the magnitude needed to capture Moscow. An Ottoman invasion would still need to be sustained from the Ottoman heartland. It would just move through Crimea.
So the Ottomans wouldn’t have a proper advanced staging ground.
 
That’s not all that relevant here. Crimea around 1700 simply isn’t a good place to invade from. It’s poor and insecure. It can’t sustain an invasion force of the magnitude needed to capture Moscow. An Ottoman invasion would still need to be sustained from the Ottoman heartland. It would just move through Crimea.
So the Ottomans wouldn’t have a proper advanced staging ground.

Kiev?

In the scenario that prompted my question, the Ottoman army first takes Kiev by defeating the Russian army in pitched battle to the south of the city, then rests in Kiev to recover its strength before making a final push on Moscow.
 
...Ottoman army first takes Kiev...
The above would be a greater menace more than in Moscow for Poland-Lithuania and if the presence of an Ottoman Army in Ukraine not would make Poland to enter early in the war against the Ottoman Empire... Then after a hypothetical Ottoman success of this kind they undoubtedly would have attacked to the Ottomans.
 
...the Ottoman army first takes Kiev...

Real life doesn't work like ETW.
1. Attacking Kiev first = war with Poland-Lithuania.
2. A Russian defeat at Kiev doesn't mean their army is gone, by the time the Ottomans would have reached Moscow there'd be a new army. Neither does it mean their nomadic allies are gone, which brings us to the next point:
3. You'd still be invading from the south, you'd still get raided by Cossacks (from Ukraine) and Kalmyks (from the Lower Volga)
4. Kiev would be a pain in the ass to hold with all those Cossacks around, because of that Kiev isn't a good staging ground either. Maybe if you first fight an entirely separate war just to secure Ukraine, then pacify the Cossacks, and only then start a new war with Russia to take Moscow it could be done. But that would never happen, the Ottomans would just get in a war with a new Holy League again.
 
Notwithstanding, the above, it is only valid for the OTL Ottoman Empire, which was not only unable to take Vienna, but (more meaningful, in my opinion) to reiterate the (same kind of) campaign against the Habsburg Capital city.
But if in a hypothetical ATL, having managed to take Vienna and / or better still Warsaw... I believe that that Ottoman empire ATL would have been in a very good position (if it had still been necessary, of course) for the kind of campaign required against Moscow.

Even that won't help them. Logistically speaking, Vienna would be next to impossible. And the Ottomans would find much of Europe bearing down at them to take back Vienna. They be over-extended themselves, and suffer from bad cases of 'Victory Disease'.

And I am sure Persia would take this chance to strike the Ottomans eastern-flank.
 
And I am sure Persia would take this chance to strike the Ottomans eastern-flank.

Perhaps.

But in the long run Russia was an enemy to Persia just as much as the Ottomans. Perhaps the two Muslim countries would have done better to work together to prevent Russian encroachment on both their territories.

Of course, such a sensible policy is probably asking too much of humankind, since history is largely the story of disasters caused by people taking the wrong decisions.
 
Ottoman Turk language, religion and culture is closer to Crimean Turkic than French culture is to Polish, which is an entirely unrelated ethnic group and language.

The Crimean Khanate was heavily relying upon grain supplies from the Ottoman Empire while Duchy of Warsaw had a well-developed agriculture. Then, as you had been told, there was a wide belt of the "wild steppe" between the Khanate and Russian territories. An army marching from the Crimea (or to the Crimea) had to pass through it and this was a problem until late XVII (except for the purely cavalry raids) because it had to carry a big supply train. In an addition to it, Southern part of the Left Bank Ukraine, which was formally under the Ottoman control at that time, also was intentionally devastated. So the Ottomans would have to bring with them huge amounts of food (especially rice and grain) with no hope to replenish supplies on the route. Quite different from the Vienna campaign when they had supply bases all the way to the Austrian border.
 
The Crimean Khanate was heavily relying upon grain supplies from the Ottoman Empire while Duchy of Warsaw had a well-developed agriculture.

More than that, a very significant amount of Russian trade with 18th c. Crimea (sailing down the Don as you'd expect) was indeed grain. So Crimea itself partially relied on Russian grain during peacetime. Poland it isn't, as far as staging invasions from goes. Of course the reverse is also true: despite Russian/Cossack successes in Perekop and Ochakov and Azov and the Kabarda and so on, they couldn't hold it until the fortresses were built across the Wild Fields (Yelets/Izyum/Cherkassk etc.), Ukraine was subordinated to Moscow, and a navy constructed to contest the Azov sea. And even then there were setbacks now and then and Crimea itself managed to muddle on until the late 18th c.
 
More than that, a very significant amount of Russian trade with 18th c. Crimea (sailing down the Don as you'd expect) was indeed grain. So Crimea itself partially relied on Russian grain during peacetime. Poland it isn't, as far as staging invasions from goes. Of course the reverse is also true: despite Russian/Cossack successes in Perekop and Ochakov and Azov and the Kabarda and so on, they couldn't hold it until the fortresses were built across the Wild Fields (Yelets/Izyum/Cherkassk etc.), Ukraine was subordinated to Moscow, and a navy constructed to contest the Azov sea. And even then there were setbacks now and then and Crimea itself managed to muddle on until the late 18th c.

And even more: when Münnich invaded the peninsula in 1736 he managed to capture a big part of the local herds but still was forced to withdraw due to the shortage of food.
 
Real life doesn't work like ETW.
1. Attacking Kiev first = war with Poland-Lithuania.
2. A Russian defeat at Kiev doesn't mean their army is gone, by the time the Ottomans would have reached Moscow there'd be a new army. Neither does it mean their nomadic allies are gone, which brings us to the next point:
3. You'd still be invading from the south, you'd still get raided by Cossacks (from Ukraine) and Kalmyks (from the Lower Volga)
4. Kiev would be a pain in the ass to hold with all those Cossacks around, because of that Kiev isn't a good staging ground either. Maybe if you first fight an entirely separate war just to secure Ukraine, then pacify the Cossacks, and only then start a new war with Russia to take Moscow it could be done. But that would never happen, the Ottomans would just get in a war with a new Holy League again.

Re#4: Conquering and holding the whole Ukraine was a practical impossibility for the Ottomans because it would mean a war with both the PLC (Right Bank Ukraine) and Tsardom (Left Bank). In OTL they managed to get a part of the Left Bank and even that after few years of fighting. Of course, the Ukrainian Cossaks had been a somewhat wild card because the Hetmanate leadership had been routinely shifting its affiliations and as a result was regularly facing rebellions.
 
True, but the retreat was hampered by a number of factors that wouldn't necessarily be the case here. For one, Napoleon stayed in Moscow longer than was advisable. For two, the Russian army was yet unbroken. For three, he was forced to retreat on the same route he advanced upon, instead of through fresh country.

Traditional but mostly false arguments debunked both by Caulaincourt and Clausewitz (both having an advantage of being both competent and being present). :winkytongue:

There was no "advisable" period for Napoleon to stay in Moscow: staying was a purely political measure which failed and timing of that failure made further staying pointless. The problem was not in a precise timing of retreat but in retreat not being organized properly (see Caulaincourt for the details). Out of all troops only the Guards and Davout's corps had properly organized baggage train. The retreating force had been overburdened with the private carts and carriages carrying the loot at expense of provision. Only the horses of Napoleon's household (for which Caulaincourt had been responsible) got proper winter horseshoes (most of the rest had been slipping and falling on the icy roads and a lot of them fall into the Russian hands and were put to service after given the right horseshoes and fed up a little bit). Actually, even on the way to Moscow the French horses had been in a terrible shape (even in the Polish units) because there simply was no "culture" of looking after the horses: the campaigns tended to be short and high quality horses had been easily obtained in the conquered territories. Not the case in Russia because Russian peasant's horses were not suitable for a cavalry service and most of the breeding "farms" were not on the route.

Basically, the problem was systematic: routinely nothing was done without Napoleon's explicit order and only very few of his subordinates had been showing initiative.

An idea of retreating through the Southern governorships had been rejected by Clausewitz as impractical. In his opinion it would be impossible for a retreating army to provide an adequate supplies while marching across the new territories. OTOH, the big magazines had been established in Smolensk and other points along the initial route. Unfortunately, the French arrived at these points already in a state of a havoc with a resulting looting (instead of an orderly distribution) and loss of most of the stored supplies (especially flour).

As for the Russian army being "unbroken", it is tricky issue. The main army (1st and 2nd armies) almost ceased to exist after Borodino. The new troops had been raised during Napoleon's stay in Moscow but they lacked training and even weapons (huge supplies of muskets, guns and gunpowder had been left in Moscow because Kutuzov did not bother to notify governor about his plans or to move these weapons from the warehouses while retreating through the city). Even with the reinforcements arriving from the North and South (armies of Chichagov & Wittgenstein) by the beginning of the 1813 Russian army was in a terrible shape both in the terms of the losses and in the areas of food supplies, clothes, etc.


Certainly our Ottoman army would have taken very heavy losses by the time they reached Moscow, but the relatively higher population density of southern Ukraine and Muscovy compared to Lithuania and Belorus means that even a very large army could probably supply itself on the march to Moscow.

Population density of the Southern (and Left Bank in general) Ukraine was quite low due to the many decades of wars and the Tatar raids. Population of the "Ottoman" part of the Left Bank was even lower (at least part of it was intentionally kept depopulated to prevent Muscovite offensives). The Southern borders of the Tsardom had been protected by the complicated lines of fortifications created with an explicit purpose to keep possible invaders out. Then, unlike the Tatars, the Ottoman armies did not rely on living off the land. They were routinely carrying the big supply trains with them (hence a special attention paid to the repair of the roads and bridges at least on their own territory) and, AFAIK, neither Ukraine nor Central Russia are big rice growers (rice being the major staple of the Janissary rations).

An Ottoman army annihilating the Russians in the field, capturing Moscow, and going into winter quarters would be in a much more secure position than Napoleon's unfortunate campaign.

The 1st item of the program would be rather hard to achieve (I'd say impossible because all Russian armies hardly would be concentrated in a single place and the Ottomans were not good enough to achieve that type of a victory), the 2nd even more so: they'd need to carry with them a heavy siege artillery all the way (Nappy did not) because Moscow of the XVII had been protected by the formidable fortifications. Instead of a single fortification line as, say, at Vienna, there were 3 lines (see map below)

250px-Moscow.gif


Where exactly would they go to the winter quarters (most of the buildings being wooden the city would burn) and what they would be eating, is anybody's guess.
 
Kiev?

In the scenario that prompted my question, the Ottoman army first takes Kiev by defeating the Russian army in pitched battle to the south of the city, then rests in Kiev to recover its strength before making a final push on Moscow.

Kiev was not in the Russian hands until 1667 and even after that it was held by the Tsardom on a temporary basis until 1686. So the Ottomans would be fighting the PLC & Moscow. Even by 1667 the Ottomans' chance to follow your "master plan" was so close to zero that it does not worth serious discussion: Russian army already was mostly modernized along the Western lines making overwhelming Ottoman victory practically impossible. Scenario that prompted your question seemingly has little to do with the history.
 
Sounds like logistics is the main problem here. Like Napoleon and Hitler.

But what if the Ottomans sailed up the Don river all the way from the Black Sea? That way perhaps they could simply resupply by their fleet.

The Don gets you almost to Moscow, and if you go north a few miles you reach the Moskva...
 
Sounds like logistics is the main problem here. Like Napoleon and Hitler.

And also an opponent (a trifle worth noticing ;)).


But what if the Ottomans sailed up the Don river all the way from the Black Sea? That way perhaps they could simply resupply by their fleet. .

Do you understand that sailing up the river means that the enemy can keep sinking your galleys with impunity? And what are you going to do with the numerous fortifications along the river? You are talking about the late XVII century after all.


The Don gets you almost to Moscow, and if you go north a few miles you reach the Moskva...

"Few miles"? You really should learn how to read the map and get an understanding of some obvious facts like that you hardly can sail on a sizable craft all the way up to the source of a river. Here is how this source looks like. Probably it is OK for the wargamer but I have problems with imagining the Ottoman fleet going all the way to this point. :winkytongue:

150px-%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BD.jpg
 
"Few miles"? You really should learn how to read the map and get an understanding of some obvious facts like that you hardly can sail on a sizable craft all the way up to the source of a river. Here is how this source looks like. Probably it is OK for the wargamer but I have problems with imagining the Ottoman fleet going all the way to this point. :winkytongue:

150px-%D0%98%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B8_%D0%94%D0%BE%D0%BD.jpg

Oh dear. Lol. I guess no boats going up there... :p

Well I guess that answers my question. Thanks guys
 
True, but the retreat was hampered by a number of factors that wouldn't necessarily be the case here. For one, Napoleon stayed in Moscow longer than was advisable. For two, the Russian army was yet unbroken. For three, he was forced to retreat on the same route he advanced upon, instead of through fresh country. Certainly our Ottoman army would have taken very heavy losses by the time they reached Moscow, but the relatively higher population density of southern Ukraine and Muscovy compared to Lithuania and Belorus means that even a very large army could probably supply itself on the march to Moscow. An Ottoman army annihilating the Russians in the field, capturing Moscow, and going into winter quarters would be in a much more secure position than Napoleon's unfortunate campaign.

Napoleon had already lost 2/3 of his army by the time he took Moscow. The retreat was the coup de grace, but the French invasion was in trouble long before that.
 
Perhaps.

But in the long run Russia was an enemy to Persia just as much as the Ottomans. Perhaps the two Muslim countries would have done better to work together to prevent Russian encroachment on both their territories.

Of course, such a sensible policy is probably asking too much of humankind, since history is largely the story of disasters caused by people taking the wrong decisions.

If this takes place under Suleiman the Magnificent, Persia hasn't even had one war with Russia yet. The first war with Russia is 100 years from now. And Persia was not in Russia's history as much of an enemy. The Russians want Constantinople and want to free the Slavs. Persia only would have Georgia, and Armenia, who only became important in the 1700s.

The Ottomans and Persians never allied despite the extreme threat the Russians posed to their empire because the Ottomans owned Karbala, an important Shia city, and the fact any dynasty that allied with them would lose legitimacy with the Shia Ulama.
 
Napoleon had already lost 2/3 of his army by the time he took Moscow. The retreat was the coup de grace, but the French invasion was in trouble long before that.
That's still a 200,000 man army of high quality, i.e. more than enough to assure the security of the empire against any offensive aspirations of his Continental enemies. If he'd had that when Prussia rose against him, it'd be more than enough to wipe them from the map and discourage Austria from joining the war. The wars of liberation were only conceivable because of how total the destruction in Russia was. If the Russians had been utterly shattered at Borodino, Napoleon would have been able to go into winter quarters and preserve the strength of his army; if the retreat had been better managed, even with 100,000 men returning to Germany, this would suffice to not just defeat but destroy the Spring coalition when joined by new drafts. With regard to an Ottoman march on Moscow, if they were to set out with 100,000 men from Kiev and arrive with only half, that's still a very substantial army; under a great general, that could be enough to win a battle of annihilation over the Russians. From there, they could go into winter quarters and avoid the catastrophe that befell Napoleon.
 
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