WI: Ottomans march on Moscow?

Earlier this week, I was playing the Ottoman Empire in Empire Total War. I was at war with Russia over the Crimea. However, after defeating their army and taking Kiev, they still refused to accept peace.

This prompted me to notice that Moscow was within reach. After thinking about it for a while, I decided to march on Moscow. I advanced on the city and was able to capture it.

My question, what if this happened in real life? Could the Ottomans really have marched on Moscow? And what would happen if they did?
 
I suspect Moscow would be too far from the Ottomans' centre of power for them to have a realistic hope of capturing it. If they did try, I expect they'd find their efforts crippled by supply problems, and they'd end up retreating with nothing to show for their efforts.
 
I suspect Moscow would be too far from the Ottomans' centre of power for them to have a realistic hope of capturing it. If they did try, I expect they'd find their efforts crippled by supply problems, and they'd end up retreating with nothing to show for their efforts.

Interesting, thanks - the supply question is a good one. OTL, the closest base the Ottomans had AFAIK would be Odessa, which is on the northwest coast of the Black Sea. This was inside Ottoman territory up to 1789. From here, it's 300 miles to Kiev. Although that's quite a long way, they could have sailed up the Dnieper river to reach Kiev. Assuming they could take it, that would be the staging post for the march on Moscow.

From Kiev to Moscow is a march of 523 miles. That's a pretty long way. Then again, it is shorter than the 973 miles from Istanbul to Vienna, and we know the Ottomans did march that far over land.

When might be the best time period historically to attack Moscow? And could the Ottomans have prevented the Russian Empire from forming, if they were successful enough?
 
Earlier this week, I was playing the Ottoman Empire in Empire Total War. I was at war with Russia over the Crimea. However, after defeating their army and taking Kiev, they still refused to accept peace.

This prompted me to notice that Moscow was within reach. After thinking about it for a while, I decided to march on Moscow. I advanced on the city and was able to capture it.

My question, what if this happened in real life? Could the Ottomans really have marched on Moscow? And what would happen if they did?

They could have. But unlike ETW there is no chance to hold it. It would be as Napoleon hold it but was forced to return.

The results would be pillaging, burning, raiding South of Moscow and the city itself. But it wil survive.

Anything between 1475-1739 is possible.
 
Trying to take Moscow would be another Vienna for them. They become extremely overextended in short order.

Moscow is indeed far but nowhere near Vienna. Vienna was relieved by a German-Polish Army. Who is going to relieve Moscow? And Vienna was more holdable than Moscow so you can imagine how impossible it is to hold Moscow as the Ottomans.

A raid and that is the most.
 
I suspect Moscow would be too far from the Ottomans' centre of power for them to have a realistic hope of capturing it. If they did try, I expect they'd find their efforts crippled by supply problems, and they'd end up retreating with nothing to show for their efforts.

Nappy tried to reach Moscow and he succeeded with 3000 km. Between Istanbul and Moscow is 2000km.

Now the steppes of Southern Ukraine is problematic but together with the Crimeans it is certainly not impossible. Highly not recommendable but thats another thing.
 
It's pretty much impossible for the Ottomans to supply a sizable force up the Volga. It'd have to be a raid that could live off the land. which means it would just be yet another steppe raid.
 

Kaze

Banned
It's pretty much impossible for the Ottomans to supply a sizable force up the Volga. It'd have to be a raid that could live off the land. which means it would just be yet another steppe raid.

And open your and yours to raids of the Cossacks.
 
Nappy tried to reach Moscow and he succeeded with 3000 km. Between Istanbul and Moscow is 2000km.

Now the steppes of Southern Ukraine is problematic but together with the Crimeans it is certainly not impossible. Highly not recommendable but thats another thing.

Not that he won in the end....

The Russians will still offer great amount of resistance to the Turks and you always have General Winter to come around.

It be one big raid then anything else.
 
Earlier this week, I was playing the Ottoman Empire in Empire Total War. I was at war with Russia over the Crimea. However, after defeating their army and taking Kiev, they still refused to accept peace.

This prompted me to notice that Moscow was within reach. After thinking about it for a while, I decided to march on Moscow. I advanced on the city and was able to capture it.

My question, what if this happened in real life? Could the Ottomans really have marched on Moscow? And what would happen if they did?

Two quick points that may seem contradictory but really aren't:

1. Moscow was taken and burned several times, by the Crimeans. So yes, Ottomans could reach Moscow with very large forces, mostly Crimeans but sometimes Turkish ones too. And they were active all over Russia's heartlands.
2. Russian armies however were capable to standing up to the Ottomans and Crimeans and generally quite successful. The Crimeans and the Ottoman infantry got thoroughly chewed up at Molodi, got driven off at the siege of Astrakhan, smashed at the great raid of 1591, defeated right at home in 1556, defeated at the siege of Tula, and generally lost every engagement of large size through the 17th c., retreating to Crimea and firing the steppe to deny the Russians forage as the only means of surviving long enough for the Ottoman navy to arrive or the Cossack war season to end.

So: yes, there is a good possibility they could march to Moscow. But there's also a possibility that they'll lose some or all the battles and subsequently most of the army on the long retreat, as had repeatedly happened. And if they do take Moscow, it might not be decisive at all, since that has happened repeatedly in history and Russia always managed to rally.
 
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The only way I could see this working is if the pan-turanists (I think thats the name) managed to succesfully create an alliance, and then combined they attacked. This would take a lot of the pressure off of the Ottomans.

Whilst I dont believe this was an intended policy position amongst the Ottoman elite, I know there were nationalist movements intended to unify the Turks, so whilst Moscow might be hard I could see an Ottoman backed turkish uprising doing reasonably well if times right.
 
The only way I could see this working is if the pan-turanists (I think thats the name) managed to succesfully create an alliance, and then combined they attacked. This would take a lot of the pressure off of the Ottomans.

Whilst I dont believe this was an intended policy position amongst the Ottoman elite, I know there were nationalist movements intended to unify the Turks, so whilst Moscow might be hard I could see an Ottoman backed turkish uprising doing reasonably well if times right.

The 1571-72 campaigns involved the Greater and Lesser Nogays, the Crimeans, and the Ottomans. And the Livonian war was still ongoing, of course. The only "Turcs" on Russia's side were the Bashkirs. It's pretty close to what you're proposing, I think?
 
The only way I could see this working is if the pan-turanists (I think thats the name) managed to succesfully create an alliance, and then combined they attacked. This would take a lot of the pressure off of the Ottomans.

Whilst I dont believe this was an intended policy position amongst the Ottoman elite, I know there were nationalist movements intended to unify the Turks, so whilst Moscow might be hard I could see an Ottoman backed turkish uprising doing reasonably well if times right.

Pan-Turanism won't come up until the mid to late 19th century which renders the raid on Moscow useless and impossible.
 
The 1571-72 campaigns involved the Greater and Lesser Nogays, the Crimeans, and the Ottomans. And the Livonian war was still ongoing, of course. The only "Turcs" on Russia's side were the Bashkirs. It's pretty close to what you're proposing, I think?
Something like that.
Pan-Turanism won't come up until the mid to late 19th century which renders the raid on Moscow useless and impossible.
Aaaaand thats when I discovered my knowledge of the Ottoman empire was sorely lackig XD
 
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