WI: NACA Modified P-38

[EverKing]

So I just had an interesting thought...[snip]

That's a good thought but there are a few issues with keeping 1940's P-38 (even TTL's NACA P-38 variants) in service into the 50's, much less beyond. Primarily, production and maintenance. With Lockheed's post-war growth and their focus on the Connie and military jets I cannot see a way they will keep Lightning production going. Maybe they'll have a stock of some spare parts but with time and the abuse of young Military pilots (combat or not) it's only a matter of time before the airframes degrade into un-usability. The very few Lightnings still flying today are supported by the good-will of Millionaires, non-profits, and/or large Corporations. Many, if not most, have had major rebuilds and none of them face the type of abuse they would see in the Military.

The gov't could farm it out to another manufacturer, but...

Your biggest issue it post-war politics.

...this would be a pretty big hurdle to overcome. More than that, even, there is the arms race of the Cold War to consider. CAS/COIN wasn't really a priority to a Nation preparing and arming for a Nuclear War. Plus, can you imagine the (PR) horror if the Soviets built a fancy new Jet attack airplane while our Great American Airmen were still flying old jalopies designed before WWII?

A case 'might' be made for the P-38 rather than the P-51 but I doubt it.

Maybe. Again, though, the cutting budgets and shift to "high tech is always better" likely removes the P-38 itself from consideration as a Attack/Interceptor in place of the P-51. Why would they approve a $100k airplane with nearly twice the maintenance cost which requires more pilot training over a $50k airplane that has a lower per-hour operation cost?

The only conceivable place I could see a P-38 surviving is in limited numbers in the VLRE role. Even there, the P-82 is clearly superior (and saw some success in the Attack role during the early Korean War). So, that leaves us with needing a "modern" (late/post-war design) derivative to keep the Lightning family alive and operational. Something with a laminar flow wing design, increased fuel capacity, improved engines, improved cockpit ergonomics and control systems, the capability of being adapted to a true multi-role Fighter/Escort/Interceptor/Night Fighter/Attack Aircraft, and able to out perform the Twin-Mustang some if not all of these roles and be cost-competitive with it. That, at least, can get us the same 200 airplane production that the F-82 got and if it more adaptable than it it may be able to survive into the 60's. That derivative then, in turn, it birth it's own derivatives--including Turbo-prop variant(s)--to keep the lineage alive.

 

[phx1138]

So I just had an interesting thought ... <snip>

EverKing's covered the objections pretty well, but let me throw in my $.05 worth (what inflation, and the penny out of circulation, and all ).

The P-38 has two engines, which make it necessarily more expensive to operate than (frex) the Corsair.

It's going to be airframe limited to what it can carry in a way the F4U, let alone the SPAD, isn't. (If you argued for the A-1 remaining in production, in low numbers, I'd probably agree.)

The P-38 isn't exactly optimized for CAS; it's too fast. (Ideal CAS speed is 500kph.)

Those alone make a continued-use P-38s dubious, IMO, even if you never get to the other problems EverKing correctly raises.

Then there's the issue of author workload...

 

[Draconis]

EverKing's covered the objections pretty well, but let me throw in my $.05 worth (what inflation, and the penny out of circulation, and all ).

The P-38 has two engines, which make it necessarily more expensive to operate than (frex) the Corsair.

It's going to be airframe limited to what it can carry in a way the F4U, let alone the SPAD, isn't. (If you argued for the A-1 remaining in production, in low numbers, I'd probably agree.)

The P-38 isn't exactly optimized for CAS; it's too fast. (Ideal CAS speed is 500kph.)

Those alone make a continued-use P-38s dubious, IMO, even if you never get to the other problems EverKing correctly raises.

Then there's the issue of author workload...

It could've been done but they were better post-war options. The P-47 at the very least or the A-1 Skyraider as you've mentioned.

 

[Draconis]

The US actually did copy the Mk.V as the A/N M3 Cannon, which in turn was adopted by the (post-war) USAF as the M24 which added electrical cocking (and re-cocking in the event of failure in flight) to it. The US M3 ("20mm Automatic Gun M3") was only 77.7" OAL (6' 5.7" or 1.97m) with a total weight of 99.5 lb (45.1 kg) including the cradle but not including the feed/de-linker mechanism which was another 15.5 lb (7 kg). Also, you'd have to add the electric trigger (3.5 - 5 lb depending on model) and charger (between 2.5 lb and 4.3 lb depending on model whether pneumatic, manual, or hydraulic...I do not have the data on the electric charger for the M24 at hand so can't speak to that) and an optional 1 lb electric heater. It offered a ROF of 650-800 RPM at a MV of 2730 fps (832 m/s). This according to TM 9-229, the official Technical Manual for the weapon updated 18 March 1947 and published 20 June 1947 from an original released 11 Jan 1945.

Unfortunately, this came too late to the US be used in the War and still didn't fix the headspace issues that caused so much reliability trouble.

With a bit more room in the nose gun bay as described in my previous posting if the 20 mm cannons weren't reliable enough then cram 8 .50 Browning HMG in the larger space. If the placement is designed efficiently it would still allow for a large magazine for each gun and perhaps permit them to be fitted without the barrels projecting out into the breeze. This is the kind of modification that wouldn't have need to have caused a long interruption in production.

Also speaking of too long production interruptions one of the reasons for not producing the P-38K in OTL was the AAF's concern over lost production. Didn't Curtiss produce their own version of a high activity paddle-bladed propeller? Installing a new Curtiss Electric prop would have reduced some of the changes needed as compared to the Hydromatic props if the new Curtiss props used the same control mechanism and wiring as the Curtiss old props.

Still, the other changes to the front of the P-38 engine nacelles and the new reduction gearing would have been needed. But how difficult would introducing those other changes to the production line have been?

 

[Draconis]

The US actually did copy the Mk.V as the A/N M3 Cannon, which in turn was adopted by the (post-war) USAF as the M24 which added electrical cocking (and re-cocking in the event of failure in flight) to it. The US M3 ("20mm Automatic Gun M3") was only 77.7" OAL (6' 5.7" or 1.97m) with a total weight of 99.5 lb (45.1 kg) including the cradle but not including the feed/de-linker mechanism which was another 15.5 lb (7 kg). Also, you'd have to add the electric trigger (3.5 - 5 lb depending on model) and charger (between 2.5 lb and 4.3 lb depending on model whether pneumatic, manual, or hydraulic...I do not have the data on the electric charger for the M24 at hand so can't speak to that) and an optional 1 lb electric heater. It offered a ROF of 650-800 RPM at a MV of 2730 fps (832 m/s). This according to TM 9-229, the official Technical Manual for the weapon updated 18 March 1947 and published 20 June 1947 from an original released 11 Jan 1945.

Unfortunately, this came too late to the US be used in the War and still didn't fix the headspace issues that caused so much reliability trouble.

Here's a idea. Since the American 20mm cannons were unreliable through the war maybe Lockheed and the AAF should have stuck with using the 37mm cannon. One 37mm autocannon was part of one of the original armament plans for the P-38 in 1941. Rearranging things in the nose gun bay as described in my post #2890 may have allowed for two 37mm guns fitted in a similar manner as two 20mm. If a box type magazine holding at least 50 or 60 rounds had been developed for the M4 37mm gun in 1941.

The M4 37mm was about the same length at the HS 20mm. But weighed over 200 pounds. It only had a rate of fire of about 2.5 rounds a second. And the low muzzle velocity of only 2000 feet per second made the 37mm gun a poor choice to use with the .50 HMG at about 2900 fps as the shots would diverge too much so either one aims for the 37mm and its larger ballistic drop or one aims for the .50 HMG's more level trajectory.

But on the plus side only one hit with the HEI 37mm projectile is likely to destroy the e/a. So here's a more unusual idea. If a proper box magazine feed could have been developed for the M4 37mm gun then fit 3 of those guns into the P-38 and skip the HMGs altogether. The pilots would need be trained to aim the 37mm accurately allowing for the slower muzzle velocity. With three 37mm guns in the nose of the P-38 it could have fired about 7 to 8 rounds per second in a close pattern. Any one hit with the high explosive 37mm shell would have likely have been lethal irregardless of the low muzzle velocity. As long as one could get a hit.

This would have been an excellent armament for a bomber interceptor, which the P-38 was designed to be. But would having only three 37mm cannons been effective in combat against enemy fighters?

 

[ric350]

Here's a idea. Since the American 20mm cannons were unreliable through the war maybe Lockheed and the AAF should have stuck with using the 37mm cannon.

Here’s a better idea; get the HS cannons from the British. Just deduct the cost from what they owed for LL. They’ll even make it through the “not invented here” filters, as that bridge was already crossed. An added bonus is the ADEN might then be the obvious “upgrade“ choice.

ric350

 

[phx1138]

get the HS cannons from the British

Prima facie a good idea, I'm seeing some drawbacks.

Do the Brits have production capacity to supply the U.S.? (I'd doubt it.)

You'd have to ship completed guns across the Atlantic, install them, then ship completed aircraft back again, which is a lot of extra work, not to mention the opportunity for endless snafus when guns don't arrive.

Was it possible to simply ship a single completed example as a pattern? Or would Army Ordnance (in the tradition of U.S. ordnance departments in this period) simply ignore it or screw up the copying? (I understood they started from blueprints OTL; would this obviate the problem?)

I'm not one that advocates for less firepower, but wouldn't increasing the number of .50s do the trick with way fewer headaches?

 

[Draconis]

snip
I'm not one that advocates for less firepower, but wouldn't increasing the number of .50s do the trick with way fewer headaches?

I'm inclined to agree. In our time line with the various problems I think stuffing 8 .50 M2s in the nose would have been the optimal solution for OTL. But not the ideal solution. Still, imagine 8 .50s. A Lightning with a Thunderbolt in its nose.

 

[EverKing]

Here's a idea. Since the American 20mm cannons were unreliable through the war maybe Lockheed and the AAF should have stuck with using the 37mm cannon

The 37mm had a number of draw backs, which you cover well in your post. While it could have been possible I think lobbing out a few dozen (relatively) low velocity 37mms from the nose of the P-38 would largely negate the advantages of the all-nose gun layout of the platform while also not capitalizing on the larger bursting radius of the 37mm. In some ways, a larger spread and a level divergence/convergence would be better for the larger round. The other problem is limited ammunition capacity. One of the great things with the P-38 set up as OTL is the mind-boggling amount of ammunition they could carry, up to 500 rpg of .50 cal (2000 total) and 150 rpg for the sole 20mm. That's a whopping 35 seconds of HMG time and about 14 seconds for the cannon. If they could get the 37mm to work reliably in the air and load 3 of them with, as you suggest, 50 rpg that would give them an adequate 25 seconds of firing but the fact is that even when it was tested on the Yippies they could only load 15 rounds in 3 x 5 round strips. I'm just not convinced they could get the M4 to work properly as a primary weapon.

Here’s a better idea; get the HS cannons from the British.

Prima facie a good idea, I'm seeing some drawbacks.

phx covers some of the drawbacks in the "British sourced" solution but there is another...ammunition. US manufacturers had already produced several million rounds of US-spec 20mm intended for use with the looser headspacing of the American built Hispanos. Much of this ammunition would fail to fully seat into British-spec cannons which is why, even after the headspacing issues were identified as the primary reliability failing of the American cannons the specs were never altered in US Production. In other words, using US Ammo in a British gun will likely lead to a similar number of failures as using US ammo in US guns. That leaves us with either just accepting the failure rate or having to scrap all that ammunition and reproduce it--a challenge and expense of it's own.

wouldn't increasing the number of .50s do the trick with way fewer headaches?

A Lightning with a Thunderbolt in its nose.

Absolutely. Reduce the magazines to 300 rpg for 21 seconds of firing (which should still be plenty) with a combined 114 rps in a concentrated stream. As much as I love the Hispano and wish the US Hispanos worked properly (in which case, I say load it with at least 2 x 20mms and 3 x .50s--put the 20s on the outer racks with the 50s in the middle three), if that's not feasible then I think an all HMG nose is the next best thing for the time.

 

[phx1138]

there is another...ammunition.

And I completely overlooked it. So much for my lesson from Royal Ingersoll.

I'm inclined to agree. In our time line with the various problems I think stuffing 8 .50 M2s is the nose would have been the optimal solution for OTL. But not the ideal solution. Still, imagine 8 .50s. A Lightning with a Thunderbolt in its nose.

Not ideal everywhere, no. (Great closing line. I wish I'd thought of it.)

 

[EverKing]

I don't think I've shared this heart break yet so here it is...

***WARNING : You may need a bucket to catch the tears***

Spoiler

In the Philippines c.1946

 

[phx1138]

I don't think I've shared this heart break yet so here it is...

***WARNING : You may need a bucket to catch the tears***

Spoiler

In the Philippines c.1946
View attachment 785712

That qualifies as a war crime.

Or treason.

Sure as hell grounds for shooting everybody involved...

 

[Salvare7097]

I don't think I've shared this heart break yet so here it is...

***WARNING : You may need a bucket to catch the tears***

Spoiler

In the Philippines c.1946
View attachment 785712

wtf is this

 

[EverKing]

wtf is this

A literal pile of discarded P-38s. After the war the USAAF had already decided to retire the P-38 and instead of shipping all of them back for disposal or resale they were destroyed in theater, in this case it was the Philippines but it happened everywhere they were stationed.

 

[Salvare7097]

A literal pile of discarded P-38s. After the war the USAAF had already decided to retire the P-38 and instead of shipping all of them back for disposal or resale they were destroyed in theater, in this case it was the Philippines but it happened everywhere they were stationed.

makes you wonder what would have happened if US gave them to the Philippines instead.

 

[Sam R.]

While even at their most incompetent the United States foreign policy units would never let the Philippines be underfunded enough to fall to an organic communist insurgency led by a Communist Party; you have just beyond the horizon of credibility Naval Demonstrations by the US against a revolutionary republic using captured ex-US equipment. The fictional Duke Mitchell is too young to face off against PDRP air forces: his Phantom II would overmatch. Maybe he had a much older brother?

More prosaically ground strikes against an insurgency. Though the PI elite seems to have a generalised competence, and the terrain and supply doesn't favour "go-it-alone" insurgency succeeding to armed struggle.

yours,
Sam R.

 

[Draconis]

It's a bit late for Halloween but if you watch this video you can almost feel the ghosts of the past.

 

[Draconis]

I don't think I've shared this heart break yet so here it is...

***WARNING : You may need a bucket to catch the tears***

Spoiler

In the Philippines c.1946
View attachment 785712

What a shame they weren't available in those large numbers and advanced versions in 1942.

 

[EverKing]

It's a bit late for Halloween but if you watch this video you can almost feel the ghosts of the past.

Man, that's incredible and hard to watch at the same time. Think of everything those aircraft and the men who served on them went through and all of it is just...gone.

Also, "The Dragon and His Tail" was in it! That has to be one of, if the the, most famous pieces of B-24 nose art. To think something so iconic was torn apart and melted down for scrap. EDIT: interesting side note, supposedly there were efforts to save "The Dragon" from destruction which in the end failed but left the ship with the distinction of being the last B-24 scrapped at Kingman. Might just be apocryphal but nevertheless a good, if sad, tale (see what I did there?).

 

[EverKing]

OK, in digging in a little more I may have been wrong about where the picture was taken. It may have been Guam instead of the Philippines. The one fully visible tail number (center left) is 426549, which makes it a P-38L-5-LO (or possibly an F-5G-6-LO) produced between Oct and Dec of '44. I don't have records of that specific aircraft but a number of the aircraft in that range were transported to Guam for (outdoor) storage after the war and were subsequently destroyed in a typhoon on 20 Jun 1946. I suspect this pile may be the remains of the "clean up" after the storm.