The Mongolian Empire was the largest on Earth and could have easily marched into Germany, dooming Western Europe but the Kahn had a heart attack and died, beginning the end of the Mongol Empire. What if the Kahn lived long enough for the Mongols to break into Germany?
WI: Mongolia brakes into Germany
- Thread starter JosefStalin
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Max Sinister
Banned
Why stay in Germany? They might take France and north Italy next. Some time ago I found an AH book with PODs concerning Austria. [thread=276808]thread[/thread] Unfortunately I forgot the details. Will have to read up.
Deleted member 67076
Bye Bye Holy Roman Empire... and judging by how Hungary and Russia fared, at least 1/5 of the German population.
I forsee a conquest of most, if not all of the HRE, and raids into Denmark, Switzerland and Italy. France maybe, IOTL theyd been trying to get an alliance with France since the invasion of Iraq. Here, they'll probably get it, if only to secure the western border.
The Mongols fought and had experience campaigning in all enviroments by the time they could invade Germany.
Really the only trouble the Mongols will have is the annoying amount of castles (which they have countermeasures and experience against) and the fact reinforcements will be scarce, to say the least.
I forsee a conquest of most, if not all of the HRE, and raids into Denmark, Switzerland and Italy. France maybe, IOTL theyd been trying to get an alliance with France since the invasion of Iraq. Here, they'll probably get it, if only to secure the western border.
Assualt, infantry, scorched earth, explosives?
The Mongols fought and had experience campaigning in all enviroments by the time they could invade Germany.
Really the only trouble the Mongols will have is the annoying amount of castles (which they have countermeasures and experience against) and the fact reinforcements will be scarce, to say the least.
Actually, I think it is possible that the Premyslids would ally with the Mongols to gain the HRE Crown, causing the HRE to be effectively a Mongol Vassal.
cubefreak123
Banned
Surprised it hasn't been brought up yet since there are plenty of threads about a Khanate in Germany. To sum it up, they would give it up after awhile due to diminishing returns.
Keep in mind that this is feudal Europe, there are a lot of castles meant to withstand a siege and there are a lot of lords that won't care if you take down the guy next door. The Mongols excelled at breaking large empires and destroying armies on the open field of battle, but now they're having to lay siege to dozens of feudal kingdoms for minimal gain when they finally capitulate. And as Kou Gakei already stated, how are they going to fight in the forests?
Ironically, Germany not being unified would have saved it in such a scenario.
Keep in mind that this is feudal Europe, there are a lot of castles meant to withstand a siege and there are a lot of lords that won't care if you take down the guy next door. The Mongols excelled at breaking large empires and destroying armies on the open field of battle, but now they're having to lay siege to dozens of feudal kingdoms for minimal gain when they finally capitulate. And as Kou Gakei already stated, how are they going to fight in the forests?
Ironically, Germany not being unified would have saved it in such a scenario.
Dorozhand
Banned
I've always found it, in a very macabre way, rather amusing that a Mongol force of 100,000 invaded and completely destroyed Hungary, and it turns out that this was just an advance scouting army and the conquest was only an afterthought.
Hungary got steamrolled when a Mongol scouting force got bored in Poland
It's a good illustration of how utterly, ridiculously unprepared the armies of the Old World were for the Mongol tactics. They didn't play by their silly rules, they ran circles around their soldiers, they laughed at logistics, and they assimilated everyone else's technology. If a Mongol force of 30,000 could annihilate a Jin army of 500,000, the sad little armies of feudal Europe are gonna get squashed like mosquitoes. The Mongols didn't conquer them because they didn't feel like it.
Hungary got steamrolled when a Mongol scouting force got bored in Poland
It's a good illustration of how utterly, ridiculously unprepared the armies of the Old World were for the Mongol tactics. They didn't play by their silly rules, they ran circles around their soldiers, they laughed at logistics, and they assimilated everyone else's technology. If a Mongol force of 30,000 could annihilate a Jin army of 500,000, the sad little armies of feudal Europe are gonna get squashed like mosquitoes. The Mongols didn't conquer them because they didn't feel like it.
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Probably the same way they fought in Zalesye and Smolenschina and Poland. German forests aren't particularly dense outside certain areas.
I've always found it, in a very macabre way, rather amusing that a Mongol force of 100,000 invaded and completely destroyed Hungary, and it turns out that this was just an advance scouting army and the conquest was only an afterthought.
Hungary got steamrolled when a Mongol scouting force got bored in Poland
It's a good illustration of how utterly, ridiculously unprepared the armies of the Old World were for the Mongol tactics. They didn't play by their silly rules, they ran circles around their soldiers, they laughed at logistics, and they assimilated everyone else's technology. If a Mongol force of 30,000 could annihilate a Jin army of 500,000, the sad little armies of feudal Europe are gonna get squashed like mosquitoes. The Mongols didn't conquer them because they didn't feel like it.
The Mongol army in Europe was almost certainly a lot smaller than 100,000, and Hungary's a terrible example of European strength considering how weak it was at the time (dirt poor and the king had managed to alienate his nobles). Even despite that, the Sajo river wasn't a complete walkover and the Mongols weren't able to completely subjugate Hungary, which actually managed to repulse a subsequent invasion without much difficulty.
Oh, and several horses per rider becomes a bit of a burden in Central Europe, where there's a lot less grazing land than the Mongols are used to. They wouldn't be able to support 100,000 troops in Germany even if they had that many troops (I don't really see them being much larger than 40,000, myself).
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However castles are a bitch. They tie down men and resources to beseige and take time to reduce. OTL Mongol forces in Croatia and Hungary never did subdue most of the castles and other fortifications there. Time, a little luck, and a Khan dying of alcoholism are the West's friends.
You realize that the Mongols were no stranger to castle sieges? Song China had plenty of fortresses; Xiangyang was sieged for about 5 years, after all. This was also in pretty forested terrain. It's not like there aren't any forests in China or Russia, for that matter.
The diminishing returns comment and the logistics factors are the main relevant ones, I'd say.
A determined invasion of Europe would have taken a couple of decades and would not yield the sort of loot that sacking the Middle East, China and India would. No Mongol Khan would go through the effort of sacking Europe when wealthier lands closer to the Mongol heartland could be taken first.
Even the Chinese fortresses were problematic, though - I remember another Mongol thread a while back where it was mentioned that taking Beijing took over a year. Castles are harder to starve out than cities - Batu can't possibly afford that much effort on the literally thousands of forts all over the HRE alone. The Carpathian Basin is also formidable, and will funnel the Mongols into the heaviest defenses available in either Bohemia or around Vienna.
Also, a more minor point, but the rainy weather in Europe will do a number on the composite bows the Mongols liked using - there's a reason Roman auxiliaries equipped with same were never deployed to wetter provinces.
Are medieval rockets any good against castles? If not, they're only good for shock value, which the Mongols aren't lacking for anyways. I don't think gunpowder would have any other worthwhile applications for a while.
RousseauX
Donor
OTOH, the Mongols were pretty good at playing the political game and allying with one faction against another. So they'll defeat the Duke of Baveria or w/e in the field and then get a bunch of discontent German lords to besiege the castles for them under the promise that they'll receive most of the gains.
Of course at some point they'll probably turn on the their former allies.
This is indeed the biggest problem, especialy combined with the castle and the forest problem. Yes the mongols could conquer Germany, but it would be too much trouble for too little gain. A far more profitable place to invade in Europe would probably Italy, which was a lot richer than Germany. But there are even better places to conquer and loot outside of Europe.
This. The problem isn't Castles (Mongol's were no stranger to siege tactic's), but that the geography of Western Europe isn't really compatible with the Mongol's playbook. As soon as you hit big forests you're going to have a problem, let alone the fact the the terrain won't be able to support the hundreds of thousands of horses.
Plus, like others have pointed out, it'd be a lot of effort expended for not that much to gain. What they were getting out of an already subjugated China beats anything they could have gotten out of Germany or France. Italy would have plenty to plunder, but good luck getting there.
The Mongols were probably fewer.
However, the Chinese have better walls than the Europeans about this time period. Siege of European castles should never be an issue. The Europeans also do not have the technological nor the manpower of China to resist the Mongols for years. As a matter of fact you dont need to siege all the European cities. The Mongols are experts in psychological warfare.
This time period, Mongols are going to win as long as they commit their best troops and generals to the war regardless of the terrain. The issue is if they are going to stay on what they have conquered.
And yes, conquering Europe further is of diminishing returns. India and China are far better prizes than Europe. They still have the Songs to conquer in China and the interior Indian before the Mongols run out of capable leaders.
However, the Chinese have better walls than the Europeans about this time period. Siege of European castles should never be an issue. The Europeans also do not have the technological nor the manpower of China to resist the Mongols for years. As a matter of fact you dont need to siege all the European cities. The Mongols are experts in psychological warfare.
This time period, Mongols are going to win as long as they commit their best troops and generals to the war regardless of the terrain. The issue is if they are going to stay on what they have conquered.
And yes, conquering Europe further is of diminishing returns. India and China are far better prizes than Europe. They still have the Songs to conquer in China and the interior Indian before the Mongols run out of capable leaders.