WI: Mary Tudor becomes Queen earlier? (Or, the planning thread)

[ranichi17]

The old menace is haunting me again, and by the old menace, I mean that one line in Wolf Hall where after the disastrous 1536 joust and everyone thinks Henry’s dead from falling off his horse, Cromwell immediately sent for Fitzwilliam to fetch Mary because, in his own words, he “cannot hold the throne for an infant in the cradle.”

So, two questions:

1. What happens to the Boleyns (and by extension, Fitzroy) if Mary became queen in 1536?
2. Who’s the most likely for Mary to marry at that point?

 

[Peppe]

The old menace is haunting me again, and by the old menace, I mean that one line in Wolf Hall where after the disastrous 1536 joust and everyone thinks Henry’s dead from falling off his horse, Cromwell immediately sent for Fitzwilliam to fetch Mary because, in his own words, he “cannot hold the throne for an infant in the cradle.”

So, two questions:

1. What happens to the Boleyns (and by extension, Fitzroy) if Mary became queen in 1536?
2. Who’s the most likely for Mary to marry at that point?

1. Maybe get the chop, maybe just be exiled to the countryside or imprisoned for quite the long term in the Tower
2. I don' know, but Charles V's wife will die in 3 years time so...

 

[Jonathan]

So, two questions:

1. What happens to the Boleyns (and by extension, Fitzroy) if Mary became queen in 1536?
2. Who’s the most likely for Mary to marry at that point?

1. For the first question, depends on the allies that Anne Boleyn, Queen Dowager, can rally around her and Princess Elizabeth. Hopefully they can peacefully be based in Eltham Palace or Hever Castle away from court, with 3 year old Elizabeth being raised as heir presumptive with hopes of marrying her off. Catholic governesses will be ordered to care for the young household and to keep an eye that no treason is being plotted.
In OTL Henry VIII didn’t start an investigating for high treason against Anne until April 1536. If Mary finds any need to do this investigation, Anne could still be done for treason and Elizabeth could be deemed a child of unknown father.

Henry Fitzroy will be sent away as well as a ward of a catholic ally to keep him quite, as although he’s illegitimate, we have seen countless illegitimate claims to the throne turn to rebellions. In OTL the Duke of Richmond dies 23 July 1536 of a sickness that isn’t likely to change TTL, but that’s still 6 months after the joust so could rally support before his death.
The Succession to the Crown: Marriage Act 1536 wasn’t brought to Parliament until the conviction and execution of Anne Boleyn, resulting in both daughters, Elizabeth, and Mary, being removed.

2. A foreign support would be better, these could be:
- Francis III (b. 28/2/1518) as Duke of Brittany and heir of France, he makes a strong ally who is only two years younger. If he still dies on 10 August 1536, a possible child of theirs would be heir to all two kingdoms.
- If Scotland is willing to break the Audi Treat, James V (10/4/1512) could be a good match and would see Margaret Tudor as an influencing figure as heir to the English throne as well.
- Louis of Portugal, Duke of Beja (3/3/1506–27/11/1555) or Edward, Duke of Guimarães (7/10/1515–20/9/1540) Louis was the second son and Edward was sixth son of King Manuel I of Portugal and his second wife Maria of Aragon (sister of Catherine of Aragon) This brings their heir into the succession of Portugal.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Step one: Throw Anne Boleyn in the Tower and keep Elizabeth under guard.

Step two: Marry James V asap and unite the crowns.

Step three: Have a lot of happy and healthy babies and Elizabeth can be sent to a foreign nunnery or marry some steadfast catholic abroad.

Step four: Profits!

 

[ranichi17]

Something like this then?

Henry VIII, King of England (28 June 1491 – 31 January 1536) oo a) 1509 - o|o 1533 - Catherine of Aragon (16 December 1485 – 7 January 1536), - o|o - b) Elizabeth Blount, Baroness Tailboys of Kyme (1498), oo c) 1533 - o|o 1536 - Anne Boleyn, Marquess of Pembroke (1501)

1a) Henry, Duke of Cornwall (1 January 1511 – 22 February 1511)​

2a) Mary, Queen of England (18 February 1516) oo a) 1536 Francis III, Duke of Brittany (28 February 1518 – 30 October 1536), oo b) 1538 James V, King of Scots (10 April 1510)​

​

1a) Catherine, Duchess of Brittany (1 February 1537)​

2b) Mary Stewart (20 June 1541)​

3b) Margaret Stewart (27 November 1542)​

4b) Arthur, Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay (2 June 1545)​

5b) James, Duke of York (1 September 1551)​

6b) Elizabeth Stewart (10 November 1555)​

​

​

3b) Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond and Somerset (15 June 1519 – 24 January 1537) oo a) 1533 Mary Howard (1519)​

​

1a) Mary Fitzroy (3 August 1537)​

​

​

4c) Elizabeth Fitzroy (7 September 1533) oo a) 1550 Thomas Pole, 2nd Baron Montagu (29 November 1520)​

​

1a) Henry Pole (23 July 1554)​

2a) Thomas Pole (7 November 1558)​

3a) Mary Pole (25 August 1561)​

4a) Anne Pole (19 May 1564)​

5a) Margaret Pole (6 January 1567)​

 

[Kerney]

Step one: Throw Anne Boleyn in the Tower and keep Elizabeth under guard.

Step two: Marry James V asap and unite the crowns.

Step three: Have a lot of happy and healthy babies and Elizabeth can be sent to a foreign nunnery or marry some steadfast catholic abroad.

Step four: Profits!

1A Throw Anne in tower to rot.
1B Keep Elizabeth under guard, but make sure she grows up devoutly Catholic and thinking herself a bastard so she ultimately doesn't need guards.

If step three fails, make sure cousin Frances' kids are similarly well educated. All bases are covered.

 

[ranichi17]

If step three fails, make sure cousin Frances' kids are similarly well educated. All bases are covered.

But that's the problem. Is cousin Frances (and Margaret and Eleanor and Henry) marrying local or abroad?

 

[Kerney]

But that's the problem. Is cousin Frances (and Margaret and Eleanor and Henry) marrying local or abroad?

She's already married. If Mary and James don't have issue. The English may very much want an English monarch rather a Scottish Douglas or Margret Tudor whose judgement has seemed, questionable.

Mary would be increasingly interested in being sure those alt Grey kids are Catholic.

 

[ranichi17]

She's already married. If Mary and James don't have issue. The English may very much want an English monarch rather a Scottish Douglas or Margret Tudor whose judgement has seemed, questionable.

Mary would be increasingly interested in being sure those alt Grey kids are Catholic.

Oh, huh. I forgot Jane would have been born in 1537. I think Margaret Douglas might still be the heir presumptive, seeing as she was already born and raised in the English court.

 

[VVD0D95]

Oh, huh. I forgot Jane would have been born in 1537. I think Margaret Douglas might still be the heir presumptive, seeing as she was already born and raised in the English court.

Depends on if Henry's still passed those succession acts no? And whether Mary considers them valid....as if she's marrying James V, he's already her heir apparent if Elizabeth is considered illegitimate.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Yes, marrying James would shore up her own claim.

 

[ranichi17]

What would Mary's (and James's) foreign policy be?

 

[isabella]

Mary would NEVER EVER marry the French Dauphin. If she want a match NOW James V is pretty much her only option (also the only one who would be supported by Charles V, who never fully trusted the Avis) as both Maximilian and Philip are 9 years old and unavailable before another 5 years.
But you are so sure who Mary would be Queen if Henry died in 1536? That line came from an historical novel and I think more likely who Elizabeth will take the crown here, or better He ry IX as Anne Boleyn was pregnant and we know who her child is a boy and butterflies can prevent her miscarriage. Charles V had stopped to support Mary, and recognized Anne as Queen, after Catherine’s death and will likely stall any intervention in favor of Mary, if the Boleyns/Howards can keep the power and that is pretty likely (unless we have the very unlikely situation in which Anne still miscarried and that happened and was know before Mary was taken in custody).

 

[VVD0D95]

Mary would NEVER EVER marry the French Dauphin. If she want a match NOW James V is pretty much her only option (also the only one who would be supported by Charles V, who never fully trusted the Avis) as both Maximilian and Philip are 9 years old and unavailable before another 5 years.
But you are so sure who Mary would be Queen if Henry died in 1536? That line came from an historical novel and I think more likely who Elizabeth will take the crown here, or better He ry IX as Anne Boleyn was pregnant and we know who her child is a boy and butterflies can prevent her miscarriage. Charles V had stopped to support Mary, and recognized Anne as Queen, after Catherine’s death and will likely stall any intervention in favor of Mary, if the Boleyns/Howards can keep the power and that is pretty likely (unless we have the very unlikely situation in which Anne still miscarried and that happened and was know before Mary was taken in custody).

I think it depends how quickly people move, also the stress of losing her husband could cause Anne ro miscarry, in which case it’s a show down between a grown woman and a baby

 

[BlueFlowwer]

A woman just grown with powerful relatives and a sottish hubby waiting in the wings or a toddler with a unpopular mother. Yeah, my money is on Mary. She could be a force to be reconned with. No way would Charles support baby Elizabeth instead of his cousin.

 

[isabella]

A woman just grown with powerful relatives and a sottish hubby waiting in the wings or a toddler with a unpopular mother. Yeah, my money is on Mary. She could be a force to be reconned with. No way would Charles support baby Elizabeth instead of his cousin.

Charles would sit out and wait for the outcome and his intervention in favor of Mary would likely misfire.
Also Mary marrying James would NEVER be guaranteed before her becoming Queen and fully in charge

 

[VVD0D95]

Charles would sit out and wait for the outcome and his intervention in favor of Mary would likely misfire.
Also Mary marrying James would NEVER be guaranteed before her becoming Queen and fully in charge

A betrothal could be agreed no?

 

[isabella]

I think it depends how quickly people move, also the stress of losing her husband could cause Anne ro miscarry, in which case it’s a show down between a grown woman and a baby

Thomas Boleyn and Thomas Howard would be likely quick, plus both girls (Mary and Elizabeth) are in the same place under the custody of people close to the Boleyns. Brandon would likely move in favor of Mary, but only if it is clear from the start who Henry is dead and Anne is losing her child and that is pretty unlikeky (as Anne’s miscarriage happened some days later and not as direct consequence of Henry’s injury) and also is unlikely to be able to recover Mary before Wiltshire and Norfolk take her under custody

A betrothal could be agreed no?

Before Mary was secure on her throne? No way, specially as Mary was still in Elizabeth’s household. James would do better to try to claim England for himself at that point as that would be safer for him.

 

[isabella]

If you want make Mary as Queen you need to have Henry die after Anne’s execution but before Edward‘s conception not when the Howard/Boleyn clan is still at the highest of their power, all England sweared to recogniz/support Elizabeth as heiress of her father while Anne can still have a son, Catherine is dead and Mary is alone in Elizabeth’s household

 

[VVD0D95]

Thomas Boleyn and Thomas Howard would be likely quick, plus both girls (Mary and Elizabeth) are in the same place under the custody of people close to the Boleyns. Brandon would likely move in favor of Mary, but only if it is clear from the start who Henry is dead and Anne is losing her child and that is pretty unlikeky (as Anne’s miscarriage happened some days later and not as direct consequence of Henry’s injury) and also is unlikely to be able to recover Mary before Wiltshire and Norfolk take her under custody


Before Mary was secure on her throne? No way, specially as Mary was still in Elizabeth’s household. James would do better to try to claim England for himself at that point as that would be safer for him.

You don't think the stress of losing her husband could hasten Anne's miscarriage? After all, Anne's mealticket is dead, and whilst people may have sworn to recognise Elizabeth as heiress, nobles also swore to recognise Matilda as her father's heiress and that didn't go well.