WI: Marguerite of Anjou Marries Differently

[Kellan Sullivan]

The question is simple: Marguerite d'Anjou was seen as a poor match for Henry VI, OTL. Not only was her dowry small, but the English had to pay Anjou a sum of money plus ensure that certain territories that England possessed in France, would pass to the Angevins. And the Anjous never left the French camp AFAIK. So, let's say Henry marries elsewhere (where? Isabelle d'Armagnac, dame des Quatres-Vallées or Leonor of Navarre are possibilities), because Marguerite's not available.

Why is Marguerite not available? Well, Friedrich of Austria, later Holy Roman Emperor Friedrich III, the so-called 'Stupor Mundi' expressed interest in marrying Marguerite (or an Angevin princess). For some reason - I must admit, I don't know much about the negotiations - the marriage never took place, and Marguerite ended up joining a list of she-wolf French consorts in England, with an *insane husband to boot.

So, here, Marguerite and Friedrich get married. How do things run from here? What were the obstacles to the wedding OTL, can they be overcome?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I've been thinking more on this, and wondering how Marguerite will fare being married to "Prince Sleepyhead" (as Friedrich was sometimes called)? Friedrich was one of those content to sit in a chair and conquer the world from there, Marguerite seems to have been a more active figure. Likewise, would the Lancastrian cause perhaps fare better (or worse) without a necessarily bad queen to blame things on?

 

[Alex Zetsu]

Marguerite ended up joining a list of she-wolf French consorts in England, with an *insane husband to boot.

From what I can tell, it seemed to be a marriage of love (or at least fairly close) rather than of apathy, even as her hubby descended into madness (and at the end of his life in addition to vanilla insanity he already had Henry VI's symptoms read off like a Alzheimer's textbook case). She did not like the idea of the Plantagenets losing their Normandy and Aquitaine lands. On the other hand she was a tinderbox at the English court who didn't know the proper decorum or when she should have kept her muth shut.

If Henry VI couldn't get her, I imagine he would look to a local consort.

Since I can't figure out why the negotiations never took place, I'm not sure how to get Fredrich and Marguerite together.,

 

[JonasResende]

From what I can tell, it seemed to be a marriage of love (or at least fairly close) rather than of apathy, even as her hubby descended into madness (and at the end of his life in addition to vanilla insanity he already had Henry VI's symptoms read off like a Alzheimer's textbook case). She did not like the idea of the Plantagenets losing their Normandy and Aquitaine lands. On the other hand she was a tinderbox at the English court who didn't know the proper decorum or when she should have kept her muth shut.

If Henry VI couldn't get her, I imagine he would look to a local consort.

Since I can't figure out why the negotiations never took place, I'm not sure how to get Fredrich and Marguerite together.,

Local as in English? Not a chance. As Kellan pointed out, Isabelle d'Armagnac was considered, as was Leonor of Navarre. Either of those will be far better options (although I'm not sure what Isabelle brings to the table? I know she had a marriage with her brother that resulted in 3 or 4 children, OTL, so hopefully she fares somewhat better as queen of England). Leonor and her Ceres-like fertility could likewise be useful - though I fear it might be wasted on Henry VI - a man more a monk than a king.

The marriage negotiations between Archduke Friedrich V (or King Friedrich III of Germany (he was only crowned Holy Roman Emperor in 1452) and Marguerite d'Anjou took place, Kellan merely said that he couldn't find why they faltered. IMHO, probably because the English made a better offer - what with the fact that they were willing to pay into the Angevin treasury, and throw some choice bits of land in to the deal. If I'm René I'd say "screw it" to the German diplomats and happily sign anything the English put in front of me for that.

However, an interesting thing is that OTL, after Juan, Prince de los Asturias (son of the Catholic monarchs) died, the Habsburgs began styling themselves as king/prince of Spain (despite the fact that Juana was not even heiress presumptive yet) through their descent from Leonor of Portugal. Here, with Angevin blood and it's descent from Jolanda of Aragon, this might start if/as soon as TTL Nicolas of Lorraine drops dead. But that's a far way off.

But, I for one, would very much like to see this marriage come off. If only for the sheer shit and giggles that would ensue (Austria claiming Aragon, Lorraine, Naples, Sicily and Jerusalem).

 

[Alex Zetsu]

Leonor of Navarre.

Oh I forgot about her

 

[kasumigenx]

If Eleanor of Navarre Marries Henry IV the lancastrians will escape to Aquitaine if York claims the throne, Lancastrian Gascony.

 

[Avrorrange]

From what I can tell, it seemed to be a marriage of love (or at least fairly close) rather than of apathy, even as her hubby descended into madness (and at the end of his life in addition to vanilla insanity he already had Henry VI's symptoms read off like a Alzheimer's textbook case). She did not like the idea of the Plantagenets losing their Normandy and Aquitaine lands. On the other hand she was a tinderbox at the English court who didn't know the proper decorum or when she should have kept her muth shut.

If Henry VI couldn't get her, I imagine he would look to a local consort.

Since I can't figure out why the negotiations never took place, I'm not sure how to get Fredrich and Marguerite together.,

If Henry’s wife is popular,I think she could have potentially salvaged the situation.The problem was that Henry’s wife was unpopular because she represented a loss to England,as well as the fact that she directly opposed powerful noble factions.

I think it would have been far better if Henry did not marry anyone French at all.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

From what I can tell, it seemed to be a marriage of love (or at least fairly close) rather than of apathy, even as her hubby descended into madness (and at the end of his life in addition to vanilla insanity he already had Henry VI's symptoms read off like a Alzheimer's textbook case). She did not like the idea of the Plantagenets losing their Normandy and Aquitaine lands. On the other hand she was a tinderbox at the English court who didn't know the proper decorum or when she should have kept her muth shut.

If Henry VI couldn't get her, I imagine he would look to a local consort.

Since I can't figure out why the negotiations never took place, I'm not sure how to get Fredrich and Marguerite together.,

Marguerite came from a family of strong woman, her grandmother, Yolanda of Aragon claimed the crown of Aragon in her own right, while her mother, the suo jure duchess of Lorraine, had served as a successful regent for René in Anjou and a good ruler in her own right. To her, in England, the fact that the queen - the king's wife - was not even allowed an increment of the power her mother and grandmother had in Anjou in her father's physical absence was unimaginable.

Local as in English? Not a chance. As Kellan pointed out, Isabelle d'Armagnac was considered, as was Leonor of Navarre. Either of those will be far better options (although I'm not sure what Isabelle brings to the table? I know she had a marriage with her brother that resulted in 3 or 4 children, OTL, so hopefully she fares somewhat better as queen of England). Leonor and her Ceres-like fertility could likewise be useful - though I fear it might be wasted on Henry VI - a man more a monk than a king.

The marriage negotiations between Archduke Friedrich V (or King Friedrich III of Germany (he was only crowned Holy Roman Emperor in 1452) and Marguerite d'Anjou took place, Kellan merely said that he couldn't find why they faltered. IMHO, probably because the English made a better offer - what with the fact that they were willing to pay into the Angevin treasury, and throw some choice bits of land in to the deal. If I'm René I'd say "screw it" to the German diplomats and happily sign anything the English put in front of me for that.

However, an interesting thing is that OTL, after Juan, Prince de los Asturias (son of the Catholic monarchs) died, the Habsburgs began styling themselves as king/prince of Spain (despite the fact that Juana was not even heiress presumptive yet) through their descent from Leonor of Portugal. Here, with Angevin blood and it's descent from Jolanda of Aragon, this might start if/as soon as TTL Nicolas of Lorraine drops dead. But that's a far way off.

But, I for one, would very much like to see this marriage come off. If only for the sheer shit and giggles that would ensue (Austria claiming Aragon, Lorraine, Naples, Sicily and Jerusalem).

Sounds about right as to why René would jilt the Austrians. The dowry for his daughter to wed an emperor-elect would be enormous, at least with the English he could recoup some of his losses in the dowry through the sum they paid him.

If Eleanor of Navarre Marries Henry IV the lancastrians will escape to Aquitaine if York claims the throne, Lancastrian Gascony.

That IS of course, if anything like the OTL Wars of the Roses breaks out. But I think that Leonor's elder sister, Blanca would be a better option if the Lancastrians were to flee to Aquitaine/Gascony (hadn't they lost it by this point though?) - given that she ACTUALLY stood up to their dad, while Leonor was docile and submissive to their dad's whim.

If Henry’s wife is popular,I think she could have potentially salvaged the situation.The problem was that Henry’s wife was unpopular because she represented a loss to England,as well as the fact that she directly opposed powerful noble factions.

I think it would have been far better if Henry did not marry anyone French at all.

Agreed with you on him not marrying French, but besides the ladies mentioned, who would you suggest? The Burgundian alliance is trashed, and the duke has no daughters Henry's age. An imperial alliance ( Bedford's marriage to Jacquetta of Luxemburg) didn't exactly prove useful while it lasted, and was the cause of the alienation between England and Burgundy. Would Blanca/Leonor (any Portuguese infantas around?) be a help or a hindrance to Henry?

 

[kasumigenx]

I think the French can grant Lancastrians Gascony to piss off the yorkists.

 

[kasumigenx]

I think Anne of Burgundy surviving butterflies the marriage with Margaret of Anjou.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think Anne of Burgundy surviving butterflies the marriage with Margaret of Anjou.

Forgive my ignorance, are you referring to the duchess of Bedford Anne of Burgundy? Or someone else?

I think the French can grant Lancastrians Gascony to piss off the yorkists.

Why the hell would the French give a piece of land that they've been fighting to take back from the English for almost a century, just so that they can piss of another Englishman? And that's even assuming that from a POD in 1432 (Anne of Burgundy surviving), leads to an England that is still even in the same place it was when the Wars of the Roses started OTL.

 

[LostInTheFantasy]

I know some of you wrote off a French alliance but what about Catherine of France b. 1428 - she was reportedly beautiful and intelligent but she also has siblings that could build a wider network of alliances

 

[kasumigenx]

Forgive my ignorance, are you referring to the duchess of Bedford Anne of Burgundy? Or someone else?



Why the hell would the French give a piece of land that they've been fighting to take back from the English for almost a century, just so that they can piss of another Englishman? And that's even assuming that from a POD in 1432 (Anne of Burgundy surviving), leads to an England that is still even in the same place it was when the Wars of the Roses started OTL.

Duchess of Bedford to be exact..

 

[kasumigenx]

What about Margaret of Anjou marrying the Charles the Bold.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I know some of you wrote off a French alliance but what about Catherine of France b. 1428 - she was reportedly beautiful and intelligent but she also has siblings that could build a wider network of alliances

I must admit I wrote her off solely for the reason that it seems unlikely that Charles VII would offer his daughter to the guy who is claiming his throne. Might've been premature.

What about Margaret of Anjou marrying the Charles the Bold.

Considering the OP is Marguerite marrying Friedrich III and becoming Holy Roman Empress, no. Also, there was quite a bit of bad blood between the Anjous and the Burgundians. It started with René's brother, Louis III, who had been betrothed to Jean sans Peur's daughter. Then Jean got bopped off and her brother married her elsewhere, and although it was attempted to arrange a match several times between Louis and a Burgundian princess, it nevercame to pass. Still more so after the duke of Brabant was engaged to Yolande d'Anjou behind the duke of Burgundy's back. Brabant died before the marriage happened, and for a while things looked okay, particularly when England abandoned their Burgundian alliance. But then René's second son, Louis, marquis de Pont-a-Mousson died in a Burgundian prison in Dijon, and things once again went sour.

 

[JonasResende]

Sounds about right as to why René would jilt the Austrians. The dowry for his daughter to wed an emperor-elect would be enormous, at least with the English he could recoup some of his losses in the dowry through the sum they paid him.

I would warn that I didn't say that that was the reason, just that it wouldn't be unthinkable that England just offered René a better deal. Wasn't he one of those "pauper kings" anyway? In which case I could definitely see England paying him a stipend being preferable to having to give Austria a sum (which would be pretty big since his daughter would be becoming an empress). But I could be wrong.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I would warn that I didn't say that that was the reason, just that it wouldn't be unthinkable that England just offered René a better deal. Wasn't he one of those "pauper kings" anyway? In which case I could definitely see England paying him a stipend being preferable to having to give Austria a sum (which would be pretty big since his daughter would be becoming an empress). But I could be wrong.

The dowry wouldn't be chump change, that's for sure. And it's not as though the French king would be in any position to help.

Something I am wondering though - Friedrich assumed the title of king of Hungary at Neustadt in July 1463 (according to MedLands). Would a marriage to Marguerite means she encourages him to claim it in 1457 after (if) Laszlo the Posthumous dies? And what if Lassie doesn't die (I'm guessing the Fritz-Marge marriage takes place around 1447-1449, so Lassie's leukaemia might not even develop or kill him like OTL)? He was betrothed to Madeleine de France, so it could make for interesting times if Marge ends up in a Habsburg version of the Wars of the Roses between the Albertine and Leopoldine branches of the family. At least IMHO.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A little something I cobbled together from older posts by @Kynan:

Friedrich V, Holy Roman Emperor [as Friedrich III], Archduke of Austria (b.1415, d.1493) m: 1445 Marguerite d'Anjou, Princess of Aragon, Naples, Sicily & Jerusalem (b.1429, d.1482)

- Archduchess Isabella (b. 1449)

- Archduke Christoph of Austria (b.1450, d.1451)

- Archduke Maximilian of Austria (b. 1451)

- Archduchess Katharina of Austria (b. 1452)

- Miscarriage (b.1453)

- Archduke Leopold of Austria (b. 1455)

- Archduchess Kunigunde of Austria (b.1456, d. 1461)

- Miscarriage (b. 1458)

- Archduchess Helene of Austria (b. 1460)

- Archduke Johann of Austria (b. 1465, d. 1467)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Laszlo V, King of Hungary & Bohemia [as Vladislav I], Archduke of Austria (b. 1440, d.1470) m. 1457 Madeleine de France (b. 1443, d. 1495)

- Archduke Karl of Austria, Hereditary Prince of Bohemia (b. 1461)

- Archduke Sigmund of Austria (b. 1463, d. 1472)

- Archduchess Elisabeth of Austria (b. 1464)

- Stillborn Son (b. 1465)

- Archduchess Magdalene of Austria (b. 1467)

 

[kasumigenx]

If Ladislaus' birth is butterflied Elizabeth of Luxembourg will marry the heir of Jogaila, Wladyslaw of Varna..as second husband.