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The Kingdom of Germany is in dark blue.

You'll notice that it made up the bulk of the holy roman empire. Now, the idea of Germany surviving as a medieval polity and legislature fascinates me. So say Otto I never remarried. and thus never has a claim on Italy to forge the HRE. What does the rest of the medieval era look like? Does France use its weight to conquer to the rhine and push Germany east? (I mean they at leas got Alsace-Lorraine and Burgundy otl and that was when the HRE was actually an empire) Where does the capital settle? Does this help or hamper the crusades and christianization of eastern europe?
 
The Holy Roman Emperors not having to split their focus both north and south of the alps and not having to constantly fued with the pope could easily lead to a Germans doing better vs France not worse.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
I agree with @JackLumber, and would go further yet: for "could easily", substitute "would probably". The HRE was very decentralised both because of its geographic extent and because of the tug-of-war between Emperor and Pope over primacy (and specific authority and privilege in a million little cases). If you have "only" a German Kingdom, then that is far more coherent politically. Its Southern border is well-defined (look at those nice mountains!) and it has not ultramontane entanglements of either the temporal or the ecclestiastical kind. Meanwhile, it is Catholic in the same way the France is, but the lack of an imperial claim averts the whole Investiture Controversy. (The Pope will be spending the same energy, in this ATL, instead doing his best to boss the rulers of Italy around.)

I would expect Germany to do rather well, especially since France has issues of its own. (Specific issues may be butterflied, but I don't expect this to be a scenario where France rolls sixes every time.) I would expect Germany, free here to prioritise its own interests without having to give a single damn about Italy, to push its Western border up to the Somme. Further to the South, Germany and France may at some time even work together against Burgundy, with France getting the bigger share (and Germany annexing roughly the area of OTL's Switzerland). This would then settle the border between Germany and France, probably rather permanently.

Germany's main drive, as in OTL, would be to the East. With no non-German concerns or interests, the German drive into Pomerania, Prussia, Bohemia, Austria, the Pannonian Basin and the Transylvanian Plateau would presumably be somewhat bolstered and accelerated.
 
The Kingdom of German did survive. It was one of the components, the others being Italy and Burgundy, of the Holy Roman Empire. All the common institutions of the Holy Roman Empire, such as the Diet and the courts, were institutions of the Kingdom of Germany. They did not exist for the Italian portion. All electors were from the Kingdom of Germany and notionally held offices in that kingdom, there were sometimes proposals for Italian electors but they didn't go anywhere.

As kingdom, the Kingdom of Germany functioned fairly well until the Hohenzollerns started upsetting the apple cart. There were sometimes civil wars over succession or religion, but you had those in other kingdoms, notably England and France. It maintained its borders and was a fairly prosperous case. The limitations on the power of the Emperor (king) were pretty standard for medieval monarchies. The imperial office appears weak only in contrast to the success (and the degree of this has been exaggerated by historians) in 17th century France by the Bourbons in setting up an absolute monarchy.

Remember that medieval governments were much less omnipresent in peoples' lives than modern governments.
 
The Holy Roman Emperors not having to split their focus both north and south of the alps and not having to constantly fued with the pope could easily lead to a Germans doing better vs France not worse.
I agree with @JackLumber, and would go further yet: for "could easily", substitute "would probably".
True, but France also has a greater population advantage and has a smaller front than otl. If the norman conquest isnt butterflied i could certainly see france struggling against England and ttl's germany more than it did otl against england and the hre since germany wouldn't be pulled in so many places all over europe
 
The Holy Roman Emperors not having to split their focus both north and south of the alps and not having to constantly fued with the pope could easily lead to a Germans doing better vs France not worse.

He never had to feud with the Papacy though... The Empire simply wished to continually revoke allodial lands from the Papacy. If the king is in Germany and advocates revoking Papal allodial lands in Germany and taxing without consent, it will be met with the same feuding that England was met with. All the German monarch has to do, is accept the traditional model of European kingship and be more conservative in its approach to the Papacy.
 
I agree with @JackLumber, and would go further yet: for "could easily", substitute "would probably". The HRE was very decentralised both because of its geographic extent and because of the tug-of-war between Emperor and Pope over primacy (and specific authority and privilege in a million little cases). If you have "only" a German Kingdom, then that is far more coherent politically. Its Southern border is well-defined (look at those nice mountains!) and it has not ultramontane entanglements of either the temporal or the ecclestiastical kind. Meanwhile, it is Catholic in the same way the France is, but the lack of an imperial claim averts the whole Investiture Controversy. (The Pope will be spending the same energy, in this ATL, instead doing his best to boss the rulers of Italy around.)

I would expect Germany to do rather well, especially since France has issues of its own. (Specific issues may be butterflied, but I don't expect this to be a scenario where France rolls sixes every time.) I would expect Germany, free here to prioritise its own interests without having to give a single damn about Italy, to push its Western border up to the Somme. Further to the South, Germany and France may at some time even work together against Burgundy, with France getting the bigger share (and Germany annexing roughly the area of OTL's Switzerland). This would then settle the border between Germany and France, probably rather permanently.

Germany's main drive, as in OTL, would be to the East. With no non-German concerns or interests, the German drive into Pomerania, Prussia, Bohemia, Austria, the Pannonian Basin and the Transylvanian Plateau would presumably be somewhat bolstered and accelerated.

While, I do not deny that perhaps the German kingdom would be better in some regards, do you also deny the immense positives in ruling the kingdom of Italy in imitation of their founders, Pepin, Charles I and so forth? For a Frankish king of that period, there is little reason to be a petty king and not extend yourself universally. The German kingdom is a fundamentally Frankish lordship, not a Normano-Anglo state, that is subdued in its claims relatively. Italy also in addition to affording legitimacy value to the Frankish monarchs of the empire, also provided large amounts of dues for the empire. Even times of Papal supreme authority in the Medieval Era, feudal states across Italy were paying dues to the Emperor, even within the Papal allodium. As I mentioned elsewhere, the Papal-Imperial dispute was simply as Urban II mentioned or referred to in 1090, that 'some tend to matters not of their own and seek to infringe upon matters related to the Church.' Likewise, the Emperors sought to dispute the fundamental authorities of the Papacy in matters pertaining to legal defining, rendering and appointment. This was a conflict that the Papacy could not avoid.

As such, what I am approaching, is that even if the East Francian kings never touched Italy, if they continued to reject Papal mandates and legal defining, they will come into blows with them regardless, but with a smaller force to fight with from Germany than the immense armies that Otto IV and Frederick II were able to derive from a polyglot and diverse empire (which the Papacy met in battle with armies of an equally diverse Italo-Frankish-Occitan-Norman background). As we know, the Papacy is not adverse to battling many lord of Europe at the same time and surely does not seem int eh slightest afraid of their armies arrayed. Often, the Papacy was engaged with the Empire, England, Venice, the County of Toulouse, Kingdom of Aragon, Kingdom of Norway and then on top of this, dealing with matters pertaining to crusades and so forth. Germany will be even more powerless to oppose the Papacy int eh open field of battle than otl and will constantly be under threats if they choose to breach traditions on matters. Perhaps though, in this position, Germany will become more submissive to the Papacy.

Regarding the wars with France, much of French victories against the Empire, I interpret as victories obtained partly via Papal assistance. When Philip II defeated the army of Otto IV, he was waving the flag of the Crusades, deposing a heretical apostate who had overstepped the traditions and exceeded the limits; becoming both a tyrant and a man who breaks his own word. Otto IV was already bloodied after facing utter defeat in Spoleto against the Papal crusader army under Innocent III and then his defeat certainly inspired the defection of much of the German princes to the Papal faction holding Frederick II, the so-called Staufen faction long arrayed against the Papacy, now became the Papal allies and agents in Germany and Innocent III nullified the German election and nominated ex cathedra Frederick II, with the support of the vast majority of the eastern, so-called Saxon princes. As such, Otto IV went to battle with Philip II with an army drawn from his dwindling support; hence his necessity to seek support from king John Lackland of England, who though embattled, was at least not so thoroughly shamed in Italy as Otto IV was. France was on the other hand, seen by Innocent III as the perfect monarchy, they were seemingly loyal to the Papacy, Frankish and did not infringe upon Papal feudal power over Europe, instead, French monarchs of the Capet instituted a direct cooperation with the Papacy. Even the peasantry in the main areas of France, seem devoted to the Papacy and his dictates to a degree in excess of most areas of Europe. All of this led later pontiffs to describe the French monarchy as the sublime state, the most preferred realm in Christendom, etc...

However, note, France was not seen as ideal simply due to their lack of Italian holdings. It was their devotion and acquiescence to Papal authority that assured them. If the French ruled all of Italy as Kings of Italy, and they took the same policy that they did in France, not impose any dues upon the Papal holdings directly and submitted to Papal commands, the Capet kings of Italy would receive the same paternalism from the Papacy as otl, which oddly led to Papal mistakes (such as the inquisition, one of the most major recessions of Papal power in Europe).
 
How did the Ottonians work with the pope? If I recall, stuff like investure really went ham during the 11 and 1200s, after Otto's line wasn't getting elected anymore

It was similar ultimately. However, the Papacy was weaker in this period and not as forceful in its approach. The Ottonians were not special men beyond their successors. It was simply a time of Papal weakness relatively and a period of uncertainty across Europe in general. In prior decades, the Papacy held greater authority and in the successive century, they once again, held more.
 
He never had to feud with the Papacy though... The Empire simply wished to continually revoke allodial lands from the Papacy. If the king is in Germany and advocates revoking Papal allodial lands in Germany and taxing without consent, it will be met with the same feuding that England was met with. All the German monarch has to do, is accept the traditional model of European kingship and be more conservative in its approach to the Papacy.
They never had to no but I believe their lofty station as emperors and their large realm that included so much of Italy made them more inclined to battle the pope for supremacy then just being the kings of Germany.
My thinking anyway.
 
They never had to no but I believe their lofty station as emperors and their large realm that included so much of Italy made them more inclined to battle the pope for supremacy then just being the kings of Germany.
My thinking anyway.

Probably so. I do not doubt that at all. However, England and Venice, also took to many of the breaches and battles that the Empire would do. My only dispute is that not ruling Italy removes disputes with the Papacy. Fundamentally, the conflict between the Papacy and the Emperors, was one of a battle for Europe, not a battle for Italy as it is reduced to in common culture.
 
Probably so. I do not doubt that at all. However, England and Venice, also took to many of the breaches and battles that the Empire would do. My only dispute is that not ruling Italy removes disputes with the Papacy. Fundamentally, the conflict between the Papacy and the Emperors, was one of a battle for Europe, not a battle for Italy as it is reduced to in common culture.

I think not being Emperor is what reduces the battle with the Papacy more than not being ruler of Italy. The title of Roman Emperor was very much a semi-religious and universal one, which is what caused conflict with the Pope.
 
I think not being Emperor is what reduces the battle with the Papacy more than not being ruler of Italy. The title of Roman Emperor was very much a semi-religious and universal one, which is what caused conflict with the Pope.

That's a reasonable explanation, I can entertain this idea. As long as the German kings interact with the Papacy as the French kings did otl, then I do not feel that the Germans will be in danger of the Papal sanction on anything major.

A major question though, is will West Francia and East Francia battle over uniting the overarching Frankish greater realms? It would be an interesting scenario certainly, imo.
 
That's a reasonable explanation, I can entertain this idea. As long as the German kings interact with the Papacy as the French kings did otl, then I do not feel that the Germans will be in danger of the Papal sanction on anything major.

A major question though, is will West Francia and East Francia battle over uniting the overarching Frankish greater realms? It would be an interesting scenario certainly, imo.
Given that both have aggressive non christian powers on the border for a while yet (and, butterflies permitting, when they don't France is dealing with the normans), I'm doubtful. I actually wonder if we could see something like 'give invaders some land near the border and tell them to make the other raiders fuck of' that created Normandy happen in Prussia or Schleswig-Holstein given that since east francia is closer, it would be easier raiding...
 
So say Otto I never remarried. and thus never has a claim on Italy to forge the HRE.

This is probably not a sufficient POD for your desired end. Otto's second marriage was certainly a good excuse to invade Italy, but with or without a claim, Otto has every reason to extend German hegemony over the Alps. It was not a particularly new idea - Arnulf of Carinthia had conquered Italy and lost it only because he suffered a stroke, and Otto's father Henry seems to have contemplated doing the same before he died (also from a stroke).

Controlling Italy was desirable for the German kings for a number of reasons. Certainly the imperial title was prestigious, and Italy itself was a potentially valuable prize. From a more specifically political point of view, however, the imperial title also conferred power over the Church not enjoyed by your average king. Being able to claim an imperial guardianship over the Church was crucial for Ottonian state-building, which relied heavily on ecclesiastic vassals and administrators to act in the royal interest and against the often contrary interest of the great nobility. Holding Italy also buttressed German claims to the Duchy of Lorraine, which was disputed between France and Germany at this time. Lorraine was part of the old "Middle Francia," which had traditionally (albeit rather briefly) been the domain of the emperor, and thus the imperial title suggested rightful dominion over not only Italy but the other "Middle Francian" territories (also including Burgundy, which was in the Ottonian sphere of influence but not yet a German possession).

(Note, by the way, that this places me at odds with some other posters who have argued that without Germany's feud with the Pope, they might do better against France. I would argue the opposite - the imperial title helped the German kings justify and legitimate their hold over Lorraine, and maintaining their position there as mere German kings might have proved more difficult in the long run.)

The lack of a marital claim may have delayed Otto or made his Italian plans somewhat more difficult, but he would not have scrapped them. Italy would continue to loom large in German strategic thinking just as it had for his predecessors, and even if Otto never got around to a southern intervention his successors certainly would. In order to thwart Germany's adoption of the imperial title, it is necessary to either strengthen Italy so such a conquest is no longer possible, or to hobble Germany so badly that she is incapable of trying (but this puts a surviving, whole German kingdom somewhat in doubt).
 
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