WI : Irene dies in 787 and Charlemagne has 7 surviving sons instead of just three and...

The question is on the tin - What if Irene of Athens, wife of Leo IV and Mother of Constantine VI of the Byzantine Empire before couping the Empire from her son in the 790s, died in 787 and what if Charlemagne has 7 sons outliving him (his sons in order being Pepin "the Hunchback" (illegitimate) [Predeceased Charlemagne], Charles "the Younger", Carloman/Pepin "of Italy", Louis "the Pious", Lothar "the Simple", Hugh "the Bavarian", Bernhard "the Strong", Drogo "the Short", and Berengar (Predeceased Charlemagne)) as well as living a few years longer (to 821 instead of 814)? Would Constantine VI be able to marry Charlemagne's daughter and would he and his sons be able to lead the Isaurian Dynasty into a successful series of reconquests in Italy, the Balkans, and Anatolia/Middle East/Egypt/Caucuses/Mesopatamia? What happens if Charlemagne lives another few years than he did otl without the title of Holy Roman Emperor being created being that there is one emperor in Constantinople (Or one emperor in Rome) instead of an Empress or would the HRE have been created regardless? What parts of the EMpire do you think goes to which son? I imagine that Charles gets the Frankish heartlands, Pepin of course gets Italy, Louis gets Aquitaine, Lothar gets Burgundy, Hugh gets Bavaria, and Bernhard gets Saxony but I don't know what Drogo gets.

Any ideas?
 
Charles "the Younger",

Charles the Younger was tasked with leading army to Bohemia in 805 (where https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech_(Bohemian_prince) died), so I'd say he'd get Bavaria. If Charlemagne doesn't get imperial title (actually possible if there is no Empress), I think the idea of unity between post-Frankish kingdoms might be weaker and the national states might arise earlier.
Byzantines would retain lots of prestige, so unless Constantine's son (I think repudiating Theodora would be somewhat easy, since he married her uncanonically) inherits Charlemagne's genius I don't see Byzantine reconquest.
Drogo would either become a priest or major source of discontent.
Ah, and also if Charlemagne lives longer, the uprising of Ljudevit which IOTL led to Carantania ceasing to have any form of autonomy, might not happen.
 
Charles the Younger was tasked with leading army to Bohemia in 805 (where https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech_(Bohemian_prince) died), so I'd say he'd get Bavaria. If Charlemagne doesn't get imperial title (actually possible if there is no Empress), I think the idea of unity between post-Frankish kingdoms might be weaker and the national states might arise earlier.
Byzantines would retain lots of prestige, so unless Constantine's son (I think repudiating Theodora would be somewhat easy, since he married her uncanonically) inherits Charlemagne's genius I don't see Byzantine reconquest.
Drogo would either become a priest or major source of discontent.
Ah, and also if Charlemagne lives longer, the uprising of Ljudevit which IOTL led to Carantania ceasing to have any form of autonomy, might not happen.

Charles the Younger would be set to have the Frankish heartlands of Neustria, Austrasie, France, and Lothringen because that was the core Frankish land. It wouldn't matter who led an army into where, the sons would get the prestigious places in order of importance (that was the original plan in this map -
Empire_carolingien_806.png
) so it'll likely follow thesame order it did OTL with Charlemagne getting Neustria, Lothringen, France, and Austrasie, Pepin getting Lombardie, Louis getting Aquitaine, Gascogne, Septimanie, Navarre, and Marche d'Espagne followed by his younger sons Lothar who gets Bourgogne and Provence, Hugh who gets Bavaria, Bernhard who gets Saxony, and Drogo who gets Alamannie because theeldest always got the most prestigious territory while the youngest always got the least prestigious territory. However, I do see there being wars between the German sons of Charlemagne (Hugh, Bernhard, and Drogo) against Charles "the Younger" as well as Louis, Pepin, and Lothar going against him too, leading to what I imagine independent Kingdoms and a much weaker West Francia from the getgo while East Francia could be stronger depending on what the borders look like following TTL's version of a treaty of Verdun.

On the Byzantines, I don't think inheriting genius mattered as much as just being competently trained (I do plan for Constantine VI to have three sons succeed him as joint Emperors, being Leo V, Constantine VII, and Justinian III), so if Constantine and his sons are competent and Constantine enacts enough reforms to help the state, then maybe I could see the reconquests happen over the span of a few generations with Italy and the Balkans being easier nuts to crack than the Middle East and Egypt. I wonder what happens if the Byzantines successfully take and hold Rome for an unspecified amount of time (let's say 150 years).

Interesting on Caratinania not gaining some autonomy like it did otl. Do you think he (Charlemagne) could also try to conquer more land or was he all conquered out by the end of his life OTL?
 
Charles the Younger would be set to have the Frankish heartlands of Neustria, Austrasie, France, and Lothringen because that was the core Frankish land. It wouldn't matter who led an army into where, the sons would get the prestigious places in order of importance (that was the original plan in this map -

Well, it could be argued that with giving Charles that command he pretty much intended him to direct policy in that region. However the partition of empire form 806 is indeed an valid argument.

getgo while East Francia could be stronger depending on what the borders look like following TTL's version of a treaty of Verdun.

How it would be stronger while it'd split in many kingdoms - Bernard's Saxony, Drogo's Alemannia, Hugh's Bavaria and Thuringia will be the direct part of Charles the Younger's realm?
The division between east Francia and west Francia would not arise here, probably Charles's realm will be simply known as Francia and rest of split kingdoms would be known as Saxony/Bavaria/Aquitaine/Burgundy etc.

so if Constantine

Constantine himself wasn't competent as stated in his biography in Oxford Dictionary. He was described as incapable of sound governance and lost to Muslims IOTL. His sons might be competent, but they can't exactly do many things when they're children.
Any expansion would begin when they'd be at least teenagers.

I wonder what happens if the Byzantines successfully take and hold Rome for an unspecified amount of time (let's say 150 years).

Papal authority would obviously decrease with Byzantine troops being present in Rome.

a few generations with Italy and the Balkans being easier nuts to crack

Well, they might exploit the troubles of Omurtag's regency (I don't know how old would be Constantine's sons by then, but one of them would be adult I presume) and annex at least Balkan part of Bulgaria to Empire.
IOTL in 818 Slavic tribes of Timochans, Branichevians and southern Obodrites (another Obodrite tribe lived near Baltic Sea so Obodrites near Danube were southern) rebelled against Omurtag, so they might actually ITTL form client Slavic state to Byzantium (or to Franks) in modern-day Translvania, eastern Vojvodina and eastern part of Hungary.

Interesting on Caratinania not gaining some autonomy like it did otl. Do you think he (Charlemagne) could also try to conquer more land or was he all conquered out by the end of his life OTL?

I didn't say anything about them not gaining autonomy, I said about them not losing it if Ljudevit's uprising didn't happen (with Charlemagne living longer it could be possible). I think he might try to aid aforementioned Slavic rebels against the Bulgars (IOTL they asked for Louis the Pious's help), especially if Byzantines are at war with Bulgars at the same time.
 
Well, it could be argued that with giving Charles that command he pretty much intended him to direct policy in that region. However the partition of empire form 806 is indeed an valid argument.



How it would be stronger while it'd split in many kingdoms - Bernard's Saxony, Drogo's Alemannia, Hugh's Bavaria and Thuringia will be the direct part of Charles the Younger's realm?
The division between east Francia and west Francia would not arise here, probably Charles's realm will be simply known as Francia and rest of split kingdoms would be known as Saxony/Bavaria/Aquitaine/Burgundy etc.



Constantine himself wasn't competent as stated in his biography in Oxford Dictionary. He was described as incapable of sound governance and lost to Muslims IOTL. His sons might be competent, but they can't exactly do many things when they're children.
Any expansion would begin when they'd be at least teenagers.



Papal authority would obviously decrease with Byzantine troops being present in Rome.



Well, they might exploit the troubles of Omurtag's regency (I don't know how old would be Constantine's sons by then, but one of them would be adult I presume) and annex at least Balkan part of Bulgaria to Empire.
IOTL in 818 Slavic tribes of Timochans, Branichevians and southern Obodrites (another Obodrite tribe lived near Baltic Sea so Obodrites near Danube were southern) rebelled against Omurtag, so they might actually ITTL form client Slavic state to Byzantium (or to Franks) in modern-day Translvania, eastern Vojvodina and eastern part of Hungary.



I didn't say anything about them not gaining autonomy, I said about them not losing it if Ljudevit's uprising didn't happen (with Charlemagne living longer it could be possible). I think he might try to aid aforementioned Slavic rebels against the Bulgars (IOTL they asked for Louis the Pious's help), especially if Byzantines are at war with Bulgars at the same time.
Very interesting on all fronts. Now for some comments

On Charles the Younger vs His brothers, at some point (sooner rather than later) a war is going to break out between the sons as Charles II would want ALL of Charlemagne's realm while his brothers would desire control of their own destinies after chafing under his supremacy. Charles can't be everywhere at once and that's going to prove to be true when the six younger brothers go to war with him and the Pope, if the Byzantines hasn't conquered him yet, would get a peace agreement between all of them after a few years that sees the gains made by the brothers forcibly accepted by Charles the Younger. I do plan for Lothar, Hugh, and Drogo to die childless (it was a common things for Carolingians, after all) and thus Louis gets Lothar's realm while Bernhard gets the realms of Hugh and Drogo (this happens after Charles loses the war). Thus, by the 8302/840s, the Carolingian Kingdoms of West Francia, East Francia, Aquitaine, and Italy exist.

Do you think Rotrude could be an interesting power behind the throne, not intending to coup the Emperorship from her husband, but doing the necessary fixing of the empire while having her sons be tutored by their matrilineal grandfather and uncles until they hit the ages of 10-12 to help them be extremely competent in government and military affairs?

How long do you think it'd take to conquer and subdue the Balkans/Italy? I say a decade in Italy and around 2-3 in the Balkans compared to the Middle East which will have to be piecemeal conquest over generations.

Do you think the Pope would flee outside Italy rather than be under the Byzantine thumb or do you think they'd stay and grumble while being a thorn in the side of the Byzantines, at least in Italy?

Interesting on the Bulgarians. For context, Leo V is born in 792, Constantine VII is born in 795, and Justinian III is born in 800, but with a PoD of 787, how do we know that Omurtag wouldn't be butterflied away ITTL for another Bulgarian regency earlier or later or no regency at all?

Sorry, misread what you said. Do you think Charlemagne would go for one final conquest, expanding into Western Poland and Moravia in the last seven years of his life while also assisting in a slavic revolt against the Bulgars or do you think he'd just assist the slavs?
 
On Charles the Younger vs His brothers, at some point (sooner rather than later) a war is going to break out between the sons as Charles II would want ALL of Charlemagne's realm while his brothers would desire control of their own destinies after chafing under his supremacy. Charles can't be everywhere at once and that's going to prove to be true when the six younger brothers go to war with him and the Pope, if the Byzantines hasn't conquered him yet, would get a peace agreement between all of them after a few years that sees the gains made by the brothers forcibly accepted by Charles the Younger. I do plan for Lothar, Hugh, and Drogo to die childless (it was a common things for Carolingians, after all) and thus Louis gets Lothar's realm while Bernhard gets the realms of Hugh and Drogo (this happens after Charles loses the war). Thus, by the 8302/840s, the Carolingian Kingdoms of West Francia, East Francia, Aquitaine, and Italy exist.

Yeah, I can see the logic behind this, though I don't know if all the brothers would unite against Charles II without him taking at least one of them to his side (and Charles was presumably most militarily competent among sons of Charlemagne, as he is credited with victories over the Slavs Charlemagne made. Well, if Charles doesn't lose Thuringia that makes Bernhard inheriting Hugh and Drogo's realm problematic, as he has no access to them.

Do you think Rotrude could be an interesting power behind the throne, not intending to coup the Emperorship from her husband, but doing the necessary fixing of the empire while having her sons be tutored by their matrilineal grandfather and uncles until they hit the ages of 10-12 to help them be extremely competent in government and military affairs?

There is little known about her except that she was educated in Greek and had a bastard child later on (well, the later could signify strong will, but also kind of carelesness, as having bastards was unusual for women of her status in Early Middle Ages), so you can write her as you want under the rules of that site. I don't think that what you said is impossible.

How long do you think it'd take to conquer and subdue the Balkans/Italy? I say a decade in Italy and around 2-3 in the Balkans compared to the Middle East which will have to be piecemeal conquest over generations.

Well, there is little to subdue on Balkans besides Bulgaria and Franks won't give up their influence in Croatia. Serbia was still a tribal shebang, though conquering it might be harder than conquering semi-centralized state.

Do you think the Pope would flee outside Italy rather than be under the Byzantine thumb or do you think they'd stay and grumble while being a thorn in the side of the Byzantines, at least in Italy?

I think he would stay. Emperor of Byzantium is christian emperor and at least on paper of the same faith as Pope. Popes stayed in Rome when the situation was far worse for them, for example when Arian heretic Goths took over Rome.

Interesting on the Bulgarians. For context, Leo V is born in 792, Constantine VII is born in 795, and Justinian III is born in 800, but with a PoD of 787, how do we know that Omurtag wouldn't be butterflied away ITTL for another Bulgarian regency earlier or later or no regency at all?

Well, than all of them are fit to lead a campaign. I'd give different question - what makes you think Omurtag wouldn't be butterflied? I do not see any reason for Krum not ascending to Bulgarian throne.

Sorry, misread what you said. Do you think Charlemagne would go for one final conquest, expanding into Western Poland and Moravia in the last seven years of his life while also assisting in a slavic revolt against the Bulgars or do you think he'd just assist the slavs?

Well, the conquest is kinda problematic because Franks were already stretched out and they already extracted tribute from Moravians (in 822 Mojmir I paid tribute to Louis the Pious, he'd do so for Charlemagne as well) and western Poland was an enigma at those times, though Einhard claims that Charles the Great subjugated all peoples until Vistula (well, some historians for that reason make equation between prince Lech who was slain by Charles the Younger's forces and legendary creator of Polish state of that name, but there is no definite proof for that), though we should notice Franks didn't exactly know how Danube flows and had no reliable maps.
Most likely he'd just assist Slavs and give them some vassal prince.
 
For the Byzantines, it still won't be easy. Bulgaria is at its early zenith and will be able to resist attacks with relative ease much like it did OTL, unless you want the butterflies to make Constantine VI in the competent ruler that he historically wasn't; he may well still employ Nikephoros and benefit from his financial acumen, though, I suppose.
The historical trend though is against the Byzantines, so you'll need a fair string of good emperors to actually hold on against the various ascendant threats while having to care more than OTL about Italy.
As for the Pope, he'll stay in Rome; without Irene, whoever sits in Constantinople still is the Emperor, and as the Iconoclast movement dies down (like it did OTL) tensions will gradually reduce, especially if Byzantine arms are back to "protect" the Pope. Do note that doing so will require a clash with the still fairly robust Lombard duchies of South Italy.
Charlemagne seemed to be interested in the people of Slovenia and Croatia as a potential further avenue of expansion, though that was also because of the conflict with Byzantium his coronation had brought. He will certainly keep on warring until the very end, though, because he was one such man; though his many sons surviving likely mean earlier trouble and lots of hard to predict politicking (which means you are free to deal with it however you please). I would certainly expect some eager son to rebel against their mighty dad, and get ousted or killed for their trouble though.
 
or the Byzantines, it still won't be easy. Bulgaria is at its early zenith and will be able to resist attacks with relative ease much like it did OTL

Well it did have crisis during Omurtag's regency, if longer living Charlemagne backs rebelling Slavs and Byzantines attack from the south I don't see many chances for Bulgarians to resist.
 
Well it did have crisis during Omurtag's regency, if longer living Charlemagne backs rebelling Slavs and Byzantines attack from the south I don't see many chances for Bulgarians to resist.
Crisis is a bit of a strong word, and OTL Bulgaria survived constant pressure by both Byzantines and Franks. I think you are screwing Bulgaria here.
 
Crisis is a bit of a strong word, and OTL Bulgaria survived constant pressure by both Byzantines and Franks. I think you are screwing Bulgaria here.

IOTL Byzantium peaced out in 815, there was no period when Byzantines and Franks attacked simultaenously (also Charlemagne wasn't around and I believe Charlemagne to be more competent than Louis the Pious military-wise), ITTL there might be.
Of course conquest of Bulgaria won't be easy for Constantine's TTL sons but it might definitely be doable.
 
IOTL Byzantium peaced out in 815, there was no period when Byzantines and Franks attacked simultaenously (also Charlemagne wasn't around and I believe Charlemagne to be more competent than Louis the Pious military-wise), ITTL there might be.
Of course conquest of Bulgaria won't be easy for Constantine's TTL sons but it might definitely be doable.
Byzantium peaced out despite reaching out for an alliance with Louis at the same time, yes. And coordinating twin invasions is no small matter, even if coordination holds (on the flipside, I think Charlemagne would be still less willing to cooperate than Louis).
That said, conquest of sub-Danubian Bulgaria certainly is feasible.
 
Byzantium peaced out despite reaching out for an alliance with Louis at the same time, yes. And coordinating twin invasions is no small matter, even if coordination holds (on the flipside, I think Charlemagne would be still less willing to cooperate than Louis).
That said, conquest of sub-Danubian Bulgaria certainly is feasible.

Well, sub-Danubian Bulgaria is only Bulgaria in Balkans, northern lands are not Balkans and those were the lands where Slavic rebellion took place IOTL so I think they'd fall under Charlemagne's influence anyway.
 
Yeah, I can see the logic behind this, though I don't know if all the brothers would unite against Charles II without him taking at least one of them to his side (and Charles was presumably most militarily competent among sons of Charlemagne, as he is credited with victories over the Slavs Charlemagne made. Well, if Charles doesn't lose Thuringia that makes Bernhard inheriting Hugh and Drogo's realm problematic, as he has no access to them.

Just because Charles/Karl II is Militarily Competent doesn't mean he would be able to be everywhere at once. He'd likely have to pick which was the larger threat and would decide that Louis' Aquitaine and Lothar's Burgundy would be the more powerful threat due to its size and proximity to the heart of his Kingdom Economically and Population-wise. Pepin is the only son most likely to remain Neutral since he'd be busy dealing with the Lombards himself. The only brother that I could maybe see allying with Charles/Karl II is Drogo due to how weak Alamannia is compared to Bavaria and Saxony and how he knows he's toast either way if Charles/Karl II loses OTL East Francia. Then there's also the fact that the King wasn't the end all, be all of campaigns and the like at the time. If the nobles of Francia decide the war isn't in their interests because of their own greed/ambition/vikings, that's it, the War ends in a victory for the Brothers and they can carve the map however they like. A King at this time was only as powerful as his nobles allowed and if they decided it wasn't in their interests to keep fighting, then the war would stop.

Well, there is little to subdue on Balkans besides Bulgaria and Franks won't give up their influence in Croatia. Serbia was still a tribal shebang, though conquering it might be harder than conquering semi-centralized state.

Maybe Serbia could become something like a vassal state of the Empire that Constantinople focuses on integrating later on? It's kinda like what I plan for Russia ITTL with the South being filled with Byzantine Vassal states ruled by a Greek Orthodox Elite and the North being filled with German vassal states ruled by a German Catholic (at least, initially) Elite, leading to the two Russias to diverge linguistically, writing-wise, and religiously.

I think he would stay. Emperor of Byzantium is christian emperor and at least on paper of the same faith as Pope. Popes stayed in Rome when the situation was far worse for them, for example when Arian heretic Goths took over Rome.

Interesting. Do you think the Pope might raise hell against the Byzantines? Its clear the Papacy at this point views itself as a separate entity from the Eastern Orthodox Church/Eastern Chalcedonian Church (I personally think the last time tensions between the two churches could've been healed was during Justinian I's time) so I imagine they'd be a thorn in the side of the Emperor every now and again.

Well, than all of them are fit to lead a campaign. I'd give different question - what makes you think Omurtag wouldn't be butterflied? I do not see any reason for Krum not ascending to Bulgarian throne.

That is a fair argument, however I do think that some things about the regency might be butterflied.

Well, the conquest is kinda problematic because Franks were already stretched out and they already extracted tribute from Moravians (in 822 Mojmir I paid tribute to Louis the Pious, he'd do so for Charlemagne as well) and western Poland was an enigma at those times, though Einhard claims that Charles the Great subjugated all peoples until Vistula (well, some historians for that reason make equation between prince Lech who was slain by Charles the Younger's forces and legendary creator of Polish state of that name, but there is no definite proof for that), though we should notice Franks didn't exactly know how Danube flows and had no reliable maps.

Yeah, that makes sense in some aspects, though I do see him snatching up some borderlands and turning them into Marches.

For the Byzantines, it still won't be easy. Bulgaria is at its early zenith and will be able to resist attacks with relative ease much like it did OTL, unless you want the butterflies to make Constantine VI in the competent ruler that he historically wasn't; he may well still employ Nikephoros and benefit from his financial acumen, though, I suppose.
The historical trend though is against the Byzantines, so you'll need a fair string of good emperors to actually hold on against the various ascendant threats while having to care more than OTL about Italy.

It seems that Constantine VI didn't trust Nikephoros a whole lot as he had him blinded, though that could be more due to Irene influencing him to make that decision rather than Constantine himself. Could a competent General who is a friend of C6 lead military conquests in the Balkans as Rotrude uses her husband to pass reforms to help rebuild the Empire to prepare it for their sons?

As for a string of good emperors, I plan for an era of the 5 Tri-Emperors where there's 3 Emperors at any given point for 88 Years (Leo V, Constantine VII, & Justinian III ---> Anastasios III (Son of Leo V), Constans III (Son of Constantine VII), & Justin III (Son of Justinian III) ---> Maurice II (Son of Anastasios III), Constantine VIII (Son of Constans III), & Leo VI (Son of Justin III) ---> Maurice III (Son of Maurice II), Leo VII (Son of Constantine VIII), & Constantine IX (Son of Leo VI) [He marries Leo VII's sister Theodosia] ---> John I (Son of Maurice III (died without male issue, only one daughter, Constantia, was born)), Leo VIII (Son of Leo VII; Died w/o Issue), & Constantine X (Son of Constantine IX and Theodosia; Married Constantia of the Leonid line to re-unite the three Isaurian lines with the birth of Constantine XI)) with an agreement for one line to focus on one place in particular and not try to be more dominant than the other line for the sake of the Empire's stability (The Leonid Line of Leo V, Anastasios III, Maurice II, Maurice III, and John I focuses on the Middle East/Asian Portion of the Empire (being the Senior most line); The Constantine line of Constantine VII, Constans III, Constantine VIII, Leo VII, and Leo VIII focuses on the Italian portion of the Empire (Being the 2nd line); and the Justinian line of Justinian III, Justin III, Leo VI, Constantine IX, and Constantine X focuses on the Balkans until Constantine XI unites the three lines by being descended from all of them). Think that could be a good length of time for the Empire to keep things together and defeat all the threats targeting it?

As for the Pope, he'll stay in Rome; without Irene, whoever sits in Constantinople still is the Emperor, and as the Iconoclast movement dies down (like it did OTL) tensions will gradually reduce, especially if Byzantine arms are back to "protect" the Pope. Do note that doing so will require a clash with the still fairly robust Lombard duchies of South Italy.

Interesting. How long do you think it'd take to conquer the Duchies and the Papacy and how long do you think it'd take to subdue it? I imagine the first one is relatively quick but the second one is a long generational process.

Charlemagne seemed to be interested in the people of Slovenia and Croatia as a potential further avenue of expansion, though that was also because of the conflict with Byzantium his coronation had brought. He will certainly keep on warring until the very end, though, because he was one such man; though his many sons surviving likely mean earlier trouble and lots of hard to predict politicking (which means you are free to deal with it however you please). I would certainly expect some eager son to rebel against their mighty dad, and get ousted or killed for their trouble though.

Any ideas what further lands he might try to conquer without having a conflict with Constantinople by being Holy Roman Emperor (as that title doesn't exist ITTL)? I imagine Bohemia-Moravia and Brandenburg/Pomerania/Denmark/maybe Western Poland will be a place he has a lot of focus on going forward).

On his sons, I imagine it'd be the youngest son(s) rebelling as Berengar was planned to have Barcelona before his OTL death which is really nothing compared to the Frankish heartlands of Charles/Karl II "the Younger", Italy of Carloman/Pepin "of Italy", Aquitaine of Louis/Lois I "the Pious", Burgundy of Lothar "the Simple", Bavaria of Hugh "the Bavarian", and Saxony of Bernhard "the Strong" with Drogo weighing his options as Alamannia is pretty much a nothing territory but it'd certainly be better than no territory at all which is how a failed Rebellion against Charlemagne would end up for both the youngest sons if they survive the war. I also do plan for the Mercian double marriage to happen ittl with Ælfflæd, daughter of King Offa, marrying Charles/Karl II "the Younger" and Bertha, Daughter of Charlemagne, marrying Ecgfrith, Son of King of Offa and future King of Mercia for 141 Days in 796 (he lives longer ittl).

On the Balkans itself, I don't plan for the Empire proper to go outside the South Danube with it stopping at the modern border Bosnia shares with Montenegro and Sothern Serbia (hopefully you get what I mean what I'm talking about here.
 
Just because Charles/Karl II is Militarily Competent doesn't mean he would be able to be everywhere at once. He'd likely have to pick which was the larger threat and would decide that Louis' Aquitaine and Lothar's Burgundy would be the more powerful threat due to its size and proximity to the heart of his Kingdom Economically and Population-wise. Pepin is the only son most likely to remain Neutral since he'd be busy dealing with the Lombards himself. The only brother that I could maybe see allying with Charles/Karl II is Drogo due to how weak Alamannia is compared to Bavaria and Saxony and how he knows he's toast either way if Charles/Karl II loses OTL East Francia. Then there's also the fact that the King wasn't the end all, be all of campaigns and the like at the time. If the nobles of Francia decide the war isn't in their interests because of their own greed/ambition/vikings, that's it, the War ends in a victory for the Brothers and they can carve the map however they like. A King at this time was only as powerful as his nobles allowed and if they decided it wasn't in their interests to keep fighting, then the war would stop.

I never ever said he would to be everywhere at once. Just that it makes likely that juniors would fight Charles for long before winning. And even Drogo aligning with Charles is somehwat of a buff for him (and Pepin remaining neutral). I think juniors would need 5-10 years (so war would be over at earliest around 826, at latest around 831) to fully take down Charles.
And if he doesn't lose Thuringia, Bernhard still has no way of connecting two parts of his reign. And nobility might be not willing to fight long, tiring war, but I do not see any reason for them to immediately refuse to fight for their king.

Maybe Serbia could become something like a vassal state of the Empire that Constantinople focuses on integrating later on? It's kinda like what I plan for Russia ITTL with the South being filled with Byzantine Vassal states ruled by a Greek Orthodox Elite and the North being filled with German vassal states ruled by a German Catholic (at least, initially) Elite, leading to the two Russias to diverge linguistically, writing-wise, and religiously.

Could do. South of Russia (modern-day Ukraine) would be extremely hard to keep though, so I see client Kievan principality focused mostly on protecting Byzantine Crimea for outside incursions.
And as far as Germans are involved aren't you overstating them a bit? IOTL conquest of Slavs living between Oder and Elbe (pretty much poorest part of Western Slavdom) took them like 300 years and they still had to resort to help from Danes and Poles, heck, at the time of POD even Lusatia isn't conquered, so at absolute best case for Germans I can see them totally destroying the Magyars and regaining control over Pannonian basin (that would help them more than going into northern Russia or Belarus) and later on vassalizing Poland, the problem is, that Slavs won't disappear overnight and assertion of German cultural "superiority" is simplification, Bohemians for example didn't disappear because their duke was vassal, so I think the Slavic element would be more profound in East Francia and considering how it developed IOTL, the thought of actual Bohemian-dominated East Francia wouldn't be far fetched ITTL.
And before Germans could get to north of Russia, Scandinavians would do it first.

Yeah, that makes sense in some aspects, though I do see him snatching up some borderlands and turning them into Marches.

His modus operandi was establishing vassal princes so he'd be fine with extracting tribute from Mojmir and whatever was in Poland at that time.

Interesting. Do you think the Pope might raise hell against the Byzantines? Its clear the Papacy at this point views itself as a separate entity from the Eastern Orthodox Church/Eastern Chalcedonian Church (I personally think the last time tensions between the two churches could've been healed was during Justinian I's time) so I imagine they'd be a thorn in the side of the Emperor every now and again.

I think he'd be more of a trickster, not going overtly against Byzantine interests, but rather trying to play off internal conflict in Empire for his own gain.
 
Constantine VI didn't blind Nikephoros, but his general Alexios Mosele who had sided with his mother. I'm talking about OTL subsequent Emperor Nikephoros the Logothete, an accomplished administrator and silver-tongued financial master that could, if left at his post, definitely strengthen the Empire. Militarly Byzantium is okay (though not awesome), the main problem is that everybody else (the Bulgars, the Karlings, the Abbassids) is at their peak or close enough, so it boils down to moderate screws and opportunistic assaults. Even just avoiding the revolt by Thomas the Slav and the start of loss of Sicily would be huge boosts and major unburdens that would be felt down the line.
I'm a wary of multiple co-rulers; there really is no precedent in the immediate Byzantine history and a lot of incentive to just war against your brothers and become the only ruler, but you do you.
As for conquering Italy up to Rome - it's not hard, it just requires Byzantium to not treat it like a sideshow like it always did except for Justinian and Manuel Komnenos. Subduing is pretty easy too, as long as the above applies, considering there's a pretty large number of Greeks and the area generally was under the purview of the See of Constantinople (at least de facto). It is, however, the one place where Frankish and Byzantine interests may clash; even before 800, Charlemagne did claim the Iron Crown (and thus rule over all the Lombards) and he'll be rightfully suspicious of upcoming moves from Constantinople. Especially if somebody has the otherwise reasonable idea to try and prop up fugitive prince Adelchis to regain parts of the old Exarchate. The proposed Balkan border is pretty realistic too, likely reinforced by a possible continued Imperial presence on the Dalmatian coast (see OTL Dalmatia Theme).
While Denmark didn't really offer much even OTL, the plains of Central Europe will draw Charles' attention for sure, as the destruction of the Avar power meant there was no real threat worth subduing in the south-east nor is Bulgaria coming up to fill the void. As has been said, though, subduing the Slavs won't be an easy match and it may well prove a temporary success at best.
 
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As has been said, though, subduing the Slavs won't be an easy match and it may well prove a temporary success at best.

Well, and there is a thing that once it's done to the extent OP suggests, East Francia might be not really "Frank" anymore. Even IOTL, Arnulf of Carinthia gave Slavic name to his son, if East Francia would absorb shitton of Slavs (without Lotharingia or Italy to balance them out), who would say that for example one day Premyslid wouldn't become king of said Francia and the centre of the state would shift towards Slavic lands resulting in Slavic culture becoming dominant?
 
I never ever said he would to be everywhere at once. Just that it makes likely that juniors would fight Charles for long before winning. And even Drogo aligning with Charles is somehwat of a buff for him (and Pepin remaining neutral). I think juniors would need 5-10 years (so war would be over at earliest around 826, at latest around 831) to fully take down Charles.
And if he doesn't lose Thuringia, Bernhard still has no way of connecting two parts of his reign. And nobility might be not willing to fight long, tiring war, but I do not see any reason for them to immediately refuse to fight for their king.

I do think he'd lose Thuringia in the war. Remember, Bernhard is looking to take as much as Charles' power from him so he can't threaten him with another war and he'd outright demand it with backing from Louis and Hugh backing him up because they'd rather a weaker France under Charles than Charles keeping Thuringia and potentially remaining stronger. On the nobility, after a year or two of them clearly losing or not being able to do much, they'd go "This isn't worth it" and not even bother to fight for Charles any longer.

Could do. South of Russia (modern-day Ukraine) would be extremely hard to keep though, so I see client Kievan principality focused mostly on protecting Byzantine Crimea for outside incursions.
And as far as Germans are involved aren't you overstating them a bit? IOTL conquest of Slavs living between Oder and Elbe (pretty much poorest part of Western Slavdom) took them like 300 years and they still had to resort to help from Danes and Poles, heck, at the time of POD even Lusatia isn't conquered, so at absolute best case for Germans I can see them totally destroying the Magyars and regaining control over Pannonian basin (that would help them more than going into northern Russia or Belarus) and later on vassalizing Poland, the problem is, that Slavs won't disappear overnight and assertion of German cultural "superiority" is simplification, Bohemians for example didn't disappear because their duke was vassal, so I think the Slavic element would be more profound in East Francia and considering how it developed IOTL, the thought of actual Bohemian-dominated East Francia wouldn't be far fetched ITTL.
And before Germans could get to north of Russia, Scandinavians would do it first.

Actually, I plan for it to be a bunch of different client states in Russia of both Germany and the Byzantines in both the South and North of the country. Now, onto Germany, I believe a large reason for why it was so problematic was not because it took forever to conquer them, but, again, the Germans had to deal with Italy and the Pope throwing a fit every couple of decades by virtue of the HRE existing as an entity with Germany and Italy in it and the Emperor being unable to focus his attention eastward. IOTL, Otto III had clear intentions to integrate Poland into the Empire and likely Hungary too. Here, with no Italy or Pope distracting the King of Germany every few decades, what's stopping them from going on a conquest spree in the East, especially if the Pope gives them a blanque check for it (I believe he would, as a lot of Eastern Europeans were Pagans anyway).

The Germans would not have to deal with France, which would be focusing on 1) Aquitaine as an Independent entity from the getgo, 2) Viking raids and the increasing power of vassals and nobles, and 3) The vassals likely being unwilling to wage a potentially expensive war with Germany instead of just trading with them. France is Germany's only threat in this time period if the HRE doesn't exist and if France isn't interested, Germany has a free hand for a while to focus on the Eastern lands. The Germans would be able to more strictly enforce and push for Germanization in any new territory they get, basically forced cultural conversion as well as colonization of Slavic lands in the East at a much more rapid pace than OTL. The germans would have the pope's blessing for it, their enemies would be too focused doing other things, and they'd likely focus on going as East as possible before France is in a state where they can properly challenge them.

I think he'd be more of a trickster, not going overtly against Byzantine interests, but rather trying to play off internal conflict in Empire for his own gain.

Yeah, that is definitely sometime the pope would do. He wouldn't be happy to be subservient to an Emperor, as OTL showed.

Constantine VI didn't blind Nikephoros, but his general Alexios Mosele who had sided with his mother. I'm talking about OTL subsequent Emperor Nikephoros the Logothete, an accomplished administrator and silver-tongued financial master that could, if left at his post, definitely strengthen the Empire. Militarly Byzantium is okay (though not awesome), the main problem is that everybody else (the Bulgars, the Karlings, the Abbassids) is at their peak or close enough, so it boils down to moderate screws and opportunistic assaults. Even just avoiding the revolt by Thomas the Slav and the start of loss of Sicily would be huge boosts and major unburdens that would be felt down the line.
I'm a wary of multiple co-rulers; there really is no precedent in the immediate Byzantine history and a lot of incentive to just war against your brothers and become the only ruler, but you do you.
As for conquering Italy up to Rome - it's not hard, it just requires Byzantium to not treat it like a sideshow like it always did except for Justinian and Manuel Komnenos. Subduing is pretty easy too, as long as the above applies, considering there's a pretty large number of Greeks and the area generally was under the purview of the See of Constantinople (at least de facto). The proposed border is pretty realistic too, likely reinforced by a possible continued Byzantine presence on the Dalmatian coast (see OTL Dalmatia Theme).
While Denmark didn't really offer much even OTL, the plains of Central Europe will draw Charles' attention for sure, as the destruction of the Avar power meant there was no real threat worth subduing in the south-east nor is Bulgaria coming up to fill the void. As has been said, though, subduing the Slavs won't be an easy match and it may well prove a temporary success at best.

Thanks for the clarification on Nikephoros. Any ideas how you'd have the Abbasids and Bulgarians go through screwy times by say the 850s and beyond? Thomas the Slav and the loss of Sicily would be butterflied away ittl, at least in terms of the revolt for Thomas.

Well, and there is a thing that once it's done to the extent OP suggests, East Francia might be not really "Frank" anymore. Even IOTL, Arnulf of Carinthia gave Slavic name to his son, if East Francia would absorb shitton of Slavs (without Lotharingia or Italy to balance them out), who would say that for example one day Premyslid wouldn't become king of said Francia and the centre of the state would shift towards Slavic lands resulting in Slavic culture becoming dominant?

Sorry, but I'm planning for the Liudolfings/Ottonians to become Kings of East Francia when the descendents of Bernhard die out, not Slavic kings. The Germans would be focused on a major push east and replacing the Slavs with Germans through force if necessary (more likely then not, they'll likely just pay the Slavs to go father east or south into the Byzantine Empire to disrupt them so that they don't have to deal with them). I'm keeping German culture as dominant as opposed to Slavic. In OTL 1000 AD, Germany had 8.2M to Poland's 1 Million, Bohemia's .9M, Slovenia's .158M, Hungary's 1.25M, Croatia 412K, and Bosnia's 286K. Combined, that's 4.006M compared to Germany's population. With Kievant Rus, they barely outnumber Germany with 5.4M being added to make it 9.406M. Germany doesn't even need to take over Bosnia or Croatia if it doesn't have to, which puts the population at 3.308M, far lower than Germany's 8.2M and I doubt the numbers look more favorable for the Slavs the further back we go. Bottom line, the Germans could germanize the slavic lands of Eastern Europe if it wanted to, Germany wouldn't be slavinized. Without having to focus on fighting Italian cities and the papacy every couple decades or France, they'd have a free hand in the east to do what they want. Will it be easy? No, but they'd certainly be able to do it more effectively than OTL.
 
Yeah, that is definitely sometime the pope would do. He wouldn't be happy to be subservient to an Emperor, as OTL showed.

Thanks for the clarification on Nikephoros. Any ideas how you'd have the Abbasids and Bulgarians go through screwy times by say the 850s and beyond? Thomas the Slav and the loss of Sicily would be butterflied away ittl, at least in terms of the revolt for Thomas.
The Pope of early IX century is not the Pope of the XII century - he has virtually no power, and his Imperial bestow was a desperate ploy from somebody who had to run to Charlemagne for protection against Roman nobility (!). He'll just tow the boat.

Screwing the Bulgarian just requires Omurtag to randomly croak and a weak heir to inherit. The Abbassids are going to fall downwards as per OTL anyways. Byzantium only needs to wait, reinforce, play the diplomatic game, and then strike when the moment presents itself. Lucking out on a competent but loyal general only helps.
 
I do think he'd lose Thuringia in the war. Remember, Bernhard is looking to take as much as Charles' power from him so he can't threaten him with another war and he'd outright demand it with backing from Louis and Hugh backing him up because they'd rather a weaker France under Charles than Charles keeping Thuringia and potentially remaining stronger. On the nobility, after a year or two of them clearly losing or not being able to do much, they'd go "This isn't worth it" and not even bother to fight for Charles any longer.

Ok, thanks for clarification. One of two years are IMHO seriously underestimating the nobility's durability, they could feed longer periods of war during IOTL Lothair vs his brothers feud. I doubt Charles would be much worse leader than Lothair was IOTL.

Actually, I plan for it to be a bunch of different client states in Russia of both Germany and the Byzantines in both the South and North of the country. Now, onto Germany, I believe a large reason for why it was so problematic was not because it took forever to conquer them, but, again, the Germans had to deal with Italy and the Pope throwing a fit every couple of decades by virtue of the HRE existing as an entity with Germany and Italy in it and the Emperor being unable to focus his attention eastward. IOTL, Otto III had clear intentions to integrate Poland into the Empire and likely Hungary too. Here, with no Italy or Pope distracting the King of Germany every few decades, what's stopping them from going on a conquest spree in the East, especially if the Pope gives them a blanque check for it (I believe he would, as a lot of Eastern Europeans were Pagans anyway).

Well, Novogorod was controlled by Scandinavians IOTL so you just need to keep it separate from Kiev and you have your result. And Krivichi in modern-day Belarus also had their own principality.
Idk, if having to deal with Italy was slowing down the conquest. Yes, it diverted the attention but Italy provided additional manpower and prestige for German kings. IOTL Otto III aimed to pretty much restore Roman Empire and purposefully strengthened Boleslav I's position against German nobles of the east whom he pretty much distrusted.
Well, Pope might give the carte blanche but Eastern Europeans themselves wouldn't and it was hard for Germans to keep doing military things in that region.


The Germans would not have to deal with France, which would be focusing on 1) Aquitaine as an Independent entity from the getgo, 2) Viking raids and the increasing power of vassals and nobles, and 3) The vassals likely being unwilling to wage a potentially expensive war with Germany instead of just trading with them. France is Germany's only threat in this time period if the HRE doesn't exist and if France isn't interested, Germany has a free hand for a while to focus on the Eastern lands. The Germans would be able to more strictly enforce and push for Germanization in any new territory they get, basically forced cultural conversion as well as colonization of Slavic lands in the East at a much more rapid pace than OTL. The germans would have the pope's blessing for it, their enemies would be too focused doing other things, and they'd likely focus on going as East as possible before France is in a state where they can properly challenge them.

Eh, that's pretty much a modern view on matter. The earliest conquered lands had actually a biggest percentage of remaining Slavic population (Wendland, Lusatia) so if you want German cultural dominance on East, your best bet is to have Slavs basically destroy themselves by maintaining lots of petty princedoms constantly at war with each other and boom you have region free for German colonization and whatnot.
And I wouldn't say IXth-Xth century France was threat for Germany, they played it basically as they wanted to.

Sorry, but I'm planning for the Liudolfings/Ottonians to become Kings of East Francia when the descendents of Bernhard die out, not Slavic kings. The Germans would be focused on a major push east and replacing the Slavs with Germans through force if necessary (more likely then not, they'll likely just pay the Slavs to go father east or south into the Byzantine Empire to disrupt them so that they don't have to deal with them).

Relax dude, I didn't say that would happen for 100% and that is your TL so who I am to tell you what will happen :) If you want that, that's entirely fair just that achieving it won't be easy and as I said the better way would be have Slavs destroy themselves from within and Germans come and pick up the pieces.
And that 8.2 was likely including Lotharingia and Italy, wasn't it?
 
Relax dude, I didn't say that would happen for 100% and that is your TL so who I am to tell you what will happen :) If you want that, that's entirely fair just that achieving it won't be easy and as I said the better way would be have Slavs destroy themselves from within and Germans come and pick up the pieces.

Sorry, you saying that made me balk a little bit due to the difference in population between the two groups, apologies if I came off as a jerk.

And that 8.2 was likely including Lotharingia and Italy, wasn't it?

Actually, no. I got it from this page on Wikipedia (not the best source, I know, but its what I had on hand). In that page, it says this for the HRE "The lower figure comes from adding up the constituents in Buringh's figures. The higher is the combined population of Germany (5m), Austria (0.7m), Czechia (0.9m), Belgium (0.4m), the Netherlands (0.3m), Switzerland (0.3m), Slovenia (0.158m), a quarter of France (1.62m), and two-thirds of Italy (3.4m) in Avakov, p. 9-11."

5.9m (if you want to get technical 3.9M in Germany proper, 900k in Lower Lorraine, 800k in Carinthia, and 400k in Switzerland)+.7m (700k)+.4m (400k)+.3m (300k)+.3m (300k)+1.62m (1,620,000) [all the territory Germany has ITTL disregarding Slovenia and Czechia] = 9,220,000, so Italy is unneeded here and even if we take out Lotharingia, that is 9,220,000-1.62m-900k = 6,700,000, though I do plan for Germany to have the Benelux and Lotharingia as well as the portion of France they otl head ittl as well. So, in 1000 at least, the germans are close to 10m in population without Bohemia or Slovenia being looked at.
 
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