WI: Hong Xiuquan passes the Imperial Examinations

[GameBawesome]

Hong Xiuquan is most infamously known for being the guy that started the Taiping Rebellion against the Manchu Qing Dynasty, which devastated China with untold amount of casualties. He is also known for having visions, and proclaiming himself the Son of God and the Brother of Jesus Christ, and having a Pro-Communist land reform while also having a weird syncretism of Protestant, Chinese thinking, and Hong's own beliefs.

However, what is also not discussed as often, is that Hong Xiuquan actually tried to take the Imperial Examinations, and get a position in the Qing Government. He failed them. Three times. On the third one, he had a nervous breakdown and supposedly had that vision during that time.

What if, Hong Xiuquan was able to pass the Imperial Examinations and get a position in the Qing Government? Without him, how would butterflying away the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom effect Qing China? There were still other problems in Qing China, like the rampant use of Opium, but without the Taiping Rebellion, how what could happen?

 

[Tyler96]

Possible things go worse for the Qing if there's an alt-Rebel movement in a more traditional Chinese mold that feeds off the same discontent as the Taiping but isn't so alien. Bonus points if this alt-rebellion has an actually competent leader.

 

[Oda]

Another potentially even worse rebellion will go off.
The time period when Taiping Rebellion begin is one of the worst moment in Qing history. Famine, economic decline, high unemployment and overpopulation. Plus an extra special generational discrimination against Hakka minority and u have a lot of fuel for rebellion.

Also it isn’t like taiping rebellion is the only upraising during that time period. Sichuan is doing its own thing, Nian rebellion happen and the Muslim uprisings at the border areas happen as well. Taiping was really fucking successful because the rebel leader managed to tap into the Hakka anger at being shit on by the Cantonese (well not only that but it’s was one of the major factors)

 

[Quinkana]

Tbf xichuan independence is discussed too little in western circles in terms of states that have the potential to break off from China.

Xichuan's basically surrounded by a bunch of mountains, and protection of the area is relatively easy (plug the areas of access basically). The Chinese are always scared of xichuan separatism for this reason.

As oda has said I think an independent xichuan, Xinjiang/west Turkestan and Tibet is very likely, with a bunch of warlords in the south and the north if the qing completely collapses.

 

[Vinization]

@Sacer Bubonicus

 

[Sacer Bubonicus]

Possible things go worse for the Qing if there's an alt-Rebel movement in a more traditional Chinese mold that feeds off the same discontent as the Taiping but isn't so alien. Bonus points if this alt-rebellion has an actually competent leader.

1. It wasn't alien. In fact, it had just the right combination of familiarity and spicy new ideas... such as the idea that the Manchus were literal demons from Alex Jones' nightmares and that Hong Xiuquan had a holy mission to genocide them. There were plenty of alt-Rebel movements in China at the time; they were all weaker and less competent than the Taipings were, and the main reason they weren't defeated sooner was that the Taipings had taken up all the Qing government's attention first. Without the Taipings in the picture, the Qing get their shit together sooner.

2. The Taipings were not actually incompetent. They were, however, exceptionally bloodthirsty, though Qing troops weren't exactly much better since both armies were mostly composed of militias (read: bandits on our side) and both of them had a genocidal approach to partisan suppression.

Taiping was really fucking successful because the rebel leader managed to tap into the Hakka anger at being shit on by the Cantonese (well not only that but it’s was one of the major factors)

Taiping only spent their first 2 years in/around Liangguang. For the other 12 years, they were hovering around the Yangtze river valley.
Their original recruitment pool may have been Hakka, but that changed as they went north.

Taiping derived its popularity from the fact that its message gave license for genocide, plunder and wanton murder to certain demographics who, for various reasons, were sick of the current system and felt that the Taipings were solid enough that they could actually win. Their recruits were overwhelmingly peasants, regardless of where they came from.

 

[Hawkeye]

Possible things go worse for the Qing if there's an alt-Rebel movement in a more traditional Chinese mold that feeds off the same discontent as the Taiping but isn't so alien. Bonus points if this alt-rebellion has an actually competent leader.

But it wasn't alien. Sure it was exotic much in the same way Eastern philosophies are in the West, but the Taiping religion was primarily rooted in Chinese philosophy. The Maitreya Buddha was popular in Chinese folklore where legend says that after the world has forgotten Buddhism, Maitreya will come and succeed Gautama as the new Buddha to teach the path to enlightenment to the world.

Hong Xiuquan was essentially using this popular legend wearing the skin of an exotic foreign religion that resonated with people discontent with the Qing government.

 

[Oda]

.

Taiping only spent their first 2 years in/around Liangguang. For the other 12 years, they were hovering around the Yangtze river valley.
Their original recruitment pool may have been Hakka, but that changed as they went north.

Taiping derived its popularity from the fact that its message gave license for genocide, plunder and wanton murder to certain demographics who, for various reasons, were sick of the current system and felt that the Taipings were solid enough that they could actually win. Their recruits were overwhelmingly peasants, regardless of where they came from.

Yup early on they managed to capitalise upon Hakka grievances a lot which is a major factor why they managed to get local support before expending north.
And the Qing authorities didn’t forget that after the rebellion tens of thousands of Hakka fled from Qing retribution