WI: Europe if Justinian's Empire endures

This is another one of my 'macro' discussions. Therefore, I will ask that we avoid worrying too much about the particular 'hows' in regard to the initial phases of this scenario.

The scenario presented is that, through some fashion, the conquests of Justinian do far better and are more enduring. Africa, all of Italy and Hispania are restored to Roman rule and stay that way for centuries. The borders of the Roman Empire are, in the west, the Alps and the Pyrenees. However the Empire manages its challenges in the east, it does, without losing any major territory (so, Anatolia, Syria, Egypt, all safe).

What is the ultimate effect of this political continuity in the rest of Europe?

- The Mediterranean is, for all intents and purposes, a Roman lake, thus greatly changing the economics of the Middle Ages.
- The Church is firmly under Roman administration, with all five of the Patriarchal Sees within Roman borders, and is united.
- The Roman Emperor is most definitively ruling over a unified Roman Empire that stretches from East to West, even if it is shorn of Gaul and Britain. There is thus, no opportunity for an ambitious Frankish king to be crowned as Emperor.
- Regardless of whether Islam rises, it will have little direct influence on Europe.

Does non-Roman Europe become more inclined to greater political unity in the face of such a powerful threat? Or does such a powerful state and the influence it can wield help stymy such unification? What other results might we see?
 

Deleted member 97083

If the Romans restore Hispania and all of Italy up to the Alps, it would be pretty easy for them to conquer Gaul during one of the many periods of Frankish disunity.

Germania, Scandinavia, Russia, and Britain could potentially see the rise of more centralized, powerful states, but they could also be divided by Roman intervention and subterfuge. It all depends on the details of the Roman survival.

If the Avars are defeated though, perhaps there could be a large unified Slavic empire or a Viking adventurer like Rurik could form one.
 
A quicker resolution to the Gothic Wars could do the trick, leaving a not-devastated Italy could do wonders fot the Roman Economy IIRC, as well as it would have for manpower and to keep the Lombards at bay...
This Empire would still be locked into a deadly generation war against Persia, but it is fairly doable to ensure that the Eastern Provinces remain Roman up to at least the 670s, with some Persian Occupation of some of them during the wars...

Now, depending on the Visigothic Survival or not, and on whether they eventually are going Nicene or remaining Arian, we could see a schism developing between Romans and Germanic Churches, since one of the earliest theological differences between East and West (the filioque in the nicene creed) was, AFAIK, the idea of Hispanian Nicene Monks, trying to root out Arianism in the 600s but the character of a nicene-accepting schismatic Church of the West without any of the patriarchal sees would be interesting.

Save for Slavic Incursions, the Byzantines wouldn't mess directly with the Russians or other Slavs mostly paying them off and sending missionaries, their main expansion focuses would be former Imperial Territory or the East.

An Alt-Islam might rise, but we are assuming that it can't gain a foothold in the Levant, probably the Romans can invade Mesopotamia and Armenia in the confusion if such a thing happens and the Persians get beaten badly
 
Depending on how the Gothic War (if it's a war at all, and not a relatively bloodless political unification) unfolds, these are the major stakeholders I foresee vying for power:

0. the Imperial family in Constantinople
1. the Italian senatorial elite
2. the Pope (or Italian ecclesiastical elite in a wider sense)
3. the military commander of the armies facing the Franks
4. the Constantinopolitan bureaucracy
5. the military commander of the armies guarding the Danube
6. the Patriarch of Constantinople (or Constantinopolitan ecclesiastical elite in a wider sense)
7. the military commander of the armies battling the Persians
8. the urban mob of Constantinople (and to a lesser extent Alexandria, Rome and maybe Antioch)
9. the emerging Anatolian military aristocracy
10. the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch (or "eastern" ecclesiastical elite in a wider sense)
11. the major landholders in Egypt
wildcard: remaining Ostrogoths in Italy? in the event of no prolonged war

The main conflict though would probably be between the first two, as the Roman Senate had grown powerful under the Ostrogoths, it drew its wealth from their (untouched?) landholdings in Italy & Sicily, had been independent of Roman emperors for more than a generation, and would probably end up paying for most of the defense costs of Italy, potentially exacerbating the trend in semi-private armies of this period (e.g. Belisarius' Bucellarii)
 
Depending on how the Gothic War (if it's a war at all, and not a relatively bloodless political unification) unfolds, these are the major stakeholders I foresee vying for power:

0. the Imperial family in Constantinople
1. the Italian senatorial elite
2. the Pope (or Italian ecclesiastical elite in a wider sense)
3. the military commander of the armies facing the Franks
4. the Constantinopolitan bureaucracy
5. the military commander of the armies guarding the Danube
6. the Patriarch of Constantinople (or Constantinopolitan ecclesiastical elite in a wider sense)
7. the military commander of the armies battling the Persians
8. the urban mob of Constantinople (and to a lesser extent Alexandria, Rome and maybe Antioch)
9. the emerging Anatolian military aristocracy
10. the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch (or "eastern" ecclesiastical elite in a wider sense)
11. the major landholders in Egypt
wildcard: remaining Ostrogoths in Italy? in the event of no prolonged war

The main conflict though would probably be between the first two, as the Roman Senate had grown powerful under the Ostrogoths, it drew its wealth from their (untouched?) landholdings in Italy & Sicily, had been independent of Roman emperors for more than a generation, and would probably end up paying for most of the defense costs of Italy, potentially exacerbating the trend in semi-private armies of this period (e.g. Belisarius' Bucellarii)

And what influence would these factions have on society outside of the Empire?
 
And what influence would these factions have on society outside of the Empire?
didn't have the time to continue with that part :(

basically, where I was getting at was that factions like the Senate or the magister militum in the west (or equivalent title) might well seek the support of the Franks and of whoever is north of the Alps whenever they get into a conflict, dynastic or otherwise, with Constantinople. Or, conversely, the faction controlling Constantinople occasionally bribes them to march against Spain/Italy whenever there's an east-west conflict.

Other than that, we are sure to see a continuation of trade in large volumes instead of the OTL collapse. Places like Augsburg in southern Germany got insanely rich in the middle ages thanks to trade with the Italians - here that process is likely sped up a fair bit, and we get rich merchants sometimes having a decisive impact on affairs of state in the Germanic world much earlier than OTL.

Another development I see happening, if Caesaro-Papism continues, is the emerges of "national churches" that are at odds with the Pope. It will take a while to get there, but having the head of your religion be the puppet of your political foe is one hell of an incentive for change, especially in a period as fluid and dynamic as this one.
 
I have severe doubts about conquering Gaul. How did that work for the umayyads?

Is that really a valid comparison? I'm not saying you can't have a point but you'll need to go into more detail. The Ummayads and Justinian's Romania are two very different states in very different positions. For example, the issues of Arab manpower and ethnic division aren't faced by Romania.
 
Is that really a valid comparison? I'm not saying you can't have a point but you'll need to go into more detail. The Ummayads and Justinian's Romania are two very different states in very different positions. For example, the issues of Arab manpower and ethnic division aren't faced by Romania.
I don't think conquering Gaul is all that plausible (neither is Iberia for that matter IMO, but I digress).

If most of the resources wasted in the OTL Gothic War instead get thrown at conquering Gaul, you might achieve some limited succes and a thorough de-urbanization of the place.

Southern Gaul might even be up for grabs in a situation akin to OTLs Gundobad revolt, or to the OTL intervention by Justinian into Spain - i.e. it will be dependent on enemy weakness and division and heavily reliant on supporting a rival claimant. It will also be the first place to be abandoned when the going gets tough.

If they thrash southern and central Gaul hard enough though, we might very well see the Lombards (who will doubtlessly be used extensively as mercenaries in that theater) migrate there instead...

Long-term, if Frankish urban centers and overall population are as destroyed as the Italian ones were OTL, we might see a heavier Breton (and later even Norse) conquest in the northern part of the country. ITTL, Bretonic kingdom(s) might well stretch from the Seine to the Loire, in the absence of a Frankish state powerful enough to contain them.
 
Is that really a valid comparison? I'm not saying you can't have a point but you'll need to go into more detail. The Ummayads and Justinian's Romania are two very different states in very different positions. For example, the issues of Arab manpower and ethnic division aren't faced by Romania.

What sort of manpower does Byzantium have that it far outplaces the Umayyads? Also, by the Umayyad period you can say that ethnic strife was not the leading role to the failure of the Umayyad but constant war on far between borders and the military defeat in the Khazar wars. I doubt further, that Byzantium has a culture that would impose no unrest.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Is that really a valid comparison? I'm not saying you can't have a point but you'll need to go into more detail. The Ummayads and Justinian's Romania are two very different states in very different positions. For example, the issues of Arab manpower and ethnic division aren't faced by Romania.

But the Byzantines face a hostile Sassaanid Empire and have problems in the Balkans as well.

More fundamentally, the Franks are the guys who got shit done in this period, not the Byzantines. They conquered Italy and Catalonia, Frisia and Saxony, and extended their reach into Pannonia.

The Byzantines beat these guys?
 

Faeelin

Banned
The heart of the Frankish state is the area between the Seine and the Rhine. I'm not sure how the Byzantines deurbanize that.
 
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If you're asking me, then not in and of itself. That said, my Roman Republic timeline isn't too far off.
Oh what's that about?
But the Byzantines face a hostile Sassaanid Empire and have problems in the Balkans as well.

More fundamentally, the Franks are the guys who got shit done in this period, not the Byzantines. They conquered Italy and Catalonia, Frisia and Saxony, and extended their reach into Pannonia.

The Byzantines beat these guys?
that was under Charlemagne. This is much earlier
The heart of the Frankish state is the area between the Seine and the Rhine. I'm not sure how the Byzantines deurbanize that.
becuase it wasn't? Boom deurbanized.
 
The Franks had been The Guys Who Got Shit Done(TM) since Clovis.

Clovis and the next generation or two got stuff done. Then they sat around fighting civil wars almost constantly until Dagobert I came along (around 629) and restored order for a bit. Then there was the nearly-a-century-long displacement of Merovingian power by Pippin II and Charles Martel. Only after about 740 did the Franks look elsewhere to seriously do stuff again.

- BNC
 
Africa, all of Italy and Hispania are restored to Roman rule and stay that way for centuries.
Well, if we go by Justinian's empire goals, I doubt Spain would have been very high in the list of priorities : the conquest of Betica is more of an strategic safehold to prevent Goths effectivelly meddling in western Mediteranean basin by cutting them off main mediteranean habours (Byzantine Spain barely managed to reach most of highlands, not was the point of it).

As for Africa, assuming all goes well, the ongoing fight between Romans and Berbers would be still a thing, while I don't see any reason why the IOTL contraction of Berber entities wouldn't happen.

The Mediterranean is, for all intents and purposes, a Roman lake, thus greatly changing the economics of the Middle Ages.
Actually, it would more or less preserve, IF we assume no conquests, the Late Antiquity economical/cultural continuum, probably managing to subside clients for the immediate periphery, to calm down some steppe entities or to preserve the imperial hegemony (if symbolically) in the western Romano-Barbarian kingdoms.
It wouold greatl change situation from IOTL Middle-Ages, but for everyone involved there, it would be right in the historical continuity.

That said, the rise of North Sea trade is still going to be a thing ITTL, something from which Anglo-Saxons, Frisians and especially Franks will still benefit. A different conjunction with mediterranean trade, tough, may be interesting (see below).

- The Church is firmly under Roman administration, with all five of the Patriarchal Sees within Roman borders, and is united.
I'd slightly disagree on two parts.
First, the Pentarchy model was far from being settled in the VIth century (and there could be an argument it began to devellop at this point, from Justinian decisions), its formulation or even its definition (add or remove a seat, order, etc.) is pretty much open to change, especially with a Roman-dominated Mediterrabean basin.
Then, western churches would still be largely under royal authority of Romano-Barbarian kingdoms more or less acknowledging a symbolical authority from Rome. Nothing threatening to roman cesaropapism itself, but it gives enough leverage to Rome to not be reduced to "perfect union".

The Roman Emperor is most definitively ruling over a unified Roman Empire that stretches from East to West, even if it is shorn of Gaul and Britain. There is thus, no opportunity for an ambitious Frankish king to be crowned as Emperor.
Probably not indeed. That said, we shouldn't overlook that succession crisis or coronation attempts of an emperor in the West remains credible at some point, critically when the empire will (because it will happen at some point) go trough a crisis. Giving a more interwebed relation between Romans and Barbarian kingdoms, some sort of support of relation can't be written off.

Regardless of whether Islam rises, it will have little direct influence on Europe.
Probably not direct, but if it rises and manages to takeover most of Near-East (even without Syria), it would be enough of a disruption to provoke a trade crisis in Roman eastern provinces, and having incidences over the Roman capacities to redistribute wealth to political purposes outside the empire.

Does non-Roman Europe become more inclined to greater political unity in the face of such a powerful threat?
I'm not sure the empire would be seen as a threat, or rather non an expansionist threat (well, maybe it would be so for Goths, admittedly, see below) : the main power of western Europe are still going to be Frankish Realm and while its subdivisions are still likely to be differently aligned to Rome from time to time up to the possibility of a Roman occupation of some Provencal or "Septimania" coast (see IOTL Gondovald's revolt). Eventually the unyfing conception of the Regnum Francorum is still likely to prevail while differently it did IOTL.

Without major change in mediterranean trade, I'd expect the "Provencal system" to be still be a thing, as well northern Gallic trade centers to be still largely maintained in Neustria and along the Channel, rather than switching as IOTL over Rhine (at least not completly). How much could it prevent Aquitain autonomist tendencies is anyone's guess (I think it couldn't get rid of it, at least not entierly), but a deeper Merovingian presence in south Gaul may be expected.

As for Central Europe, I wouldn't see any major change in a first time, but Roman presence over Danube may turn things quite differently. Whatever Avars, Bulgars or any Gokturk's runners managing to take the lead in the Danubian or Pannonian plain, their confederation (probably stabilized trough Roman subsides) could serve as a stepoint to a revival of Amber Road in direction to a blooming Baltic trade network. Meaning the region between middle Danube and Vistula's mouth could known a period of political development trough the IOTL Avar and Frankish but as well Roman presence ITTL. It wouldn't work out before centuries, of course.

Gothic Spain, willy-nilly, will be bound to rescind its homeism and to abide by niceism : I'd expect sooner than later an equivalent to Maurician western diplomacy having such result (while I don't see why anti-dynastic gothic kingship would cease to be a thing any time soon). That said, the relatively limited Roman presence in Spain makes me think that you'd end up with a important Gothic "reconquest" (maybe less military than local alliegance in hinterland switching back, or even agreements). Interestingly enough, Gothic Spain may be more estrangered to Roman Empire than Frankish Gaul, at least in a first time.

Northern Africa is likely going to go trough a period of economical/political contraction, mostly due to climatic issues but as well being likely cut down from most of the "interesting" part of the region : I don't expect a major trade exchange with Nigerian basin entities ITTL before a later time and probably trough lower Nilothic trade as, in the contrary, Roman (meaning there Syrian and Egyptian) trade in Eastern Africa would be a thing (while probably in rivality with Persian-Arab trade).
 
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