WI: All of Henry VIII's and Catherine of Aragon's kids are boys?

[Lougaru]

I wonder if Henry is making the same mistake as Edward III. At the time it was a good idea for Edward III to make his sons royal Dukes. Edward's military command structure began with himself of course at the centre, and then members of the court acted as his generals. This included the Edwards family and he used his sons military capabilities to the fullest especially the Black Prince. You could say that Edward's rule was very personal and familial in nature.

However down the line as history showed, this became a problem for the monarchy as a whole. It may be worse in Henry's case with  eight of his sons being Dukes and having multiple sons themselves.

 

[HortenseMancini]

I wonder if Henry is making the same mistake as Edward III. At the time it was a good idea for Edward III to make his sons royal Dukes. Edward's military command structure began with himself of course at the centre, and then members of the court acted as his generals. This included the Edwards family and he used his sons military capabilities to the fullest especially the Black Prince. You could say that Edward's rule was very personal and familial in nature.

However down the line as history showed, this became a problem for the monarchy as a whole. It may be worse in Henry's case with  eight of his sons being Dukes and having multiple sons themselves.

That's an interesting point - the thing that comes to my mind is that henry viii probably wouldn't see his elevation of his sons as a problem, actually he would probably love the idea of emulating edward iii, but of course just because henry thinks something is good doesn't mean that it is

 

[Emperor Lucas I]

I wonder if Henry is making the same mistake as Edward III. At the time it was a good idea for Edward III to make his sons royal Dukes. Edward's military command structure began with himself of course at the centre, and then members of the court acted as his generals.

Very likely, I also expect some tempering with succesion laws - Henry VIII did it OTL, but in exactly the opposite direction. Here I can expect him trying to do something similiar to what Robert II of Scotland did 150 years ago - order of succesion favoring his direct descendants in male line only.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

George, Duke of Gloucester, b. 1514​

Absolutely not. Gloucester was the title of Richard III while George was the name of Clarence. Neither of which the Tudors would wish to be associated with.

 

[CaesarKhan]

Absolutely not. Gloucester was the title of Richard III while George was the name of Clarence. Neither of which the Tudors would wish to be associated with.

Thats a fair point, maybe duke of Cumberland instead? There aren't many royal duchies left haha (And I could see them trying to rebrand the name George?)

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Thats a fair point, maybe duke of Cumberland instead?

Duke of Beaufort, created earlier, could work as a good reference to Margaret. Cumberland could work also.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Unfortunately the queens changed and Jane would only allow one of them- Anne

Why is that? Did the other two have animosity with Jane?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Why is that? Did the other two have animosity with Jane?

they didn't have animosity with Jane (they would've scarce been teenagers at the time), but Anne would've sent Jane (and potentially Madge Shelton, who was to be married) away. Meaning she had two positions open. Jane's ladies were not the same as Anne's (and potentially her brother had handpicked/packed her staff) and she may have only had one vacancy available. At least, that is my reading of the situation, since Honor Grenville doesn't seem to have borne Jane any ill will for saying only one. Although she leveraged her packages of quails for Jane's pregnancy craving to get her second and third girls in

 

[WorstOfHumanity]

OP stated she dies 5 years later than OTL

I am the OP lol

 

[ordinarylittleme]

I am the OP lol

I may be a bit dumb. You're right. But then a longer-living Katherine brings its own butterflies...

 

[WorstOfHumanity]

I may be a bit dumb. You're right. But then a longer-living Katherine brings its own butterflies...

Such as?

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Such as?

Catherine of Aragon was the daughter of the Catholic monarchs of Spain, and her marriage to Henry VIII was part of a diplomatic alliance between England and Spain. If she had lived longer, it's possible that the Spanish influence in England might have been stronger, and that England might have aligned more closely with Catholic Europe. (Likely to happen in a world where she's not renounced and has sons.) I think also this would affect Scotland since there's no chance of union now.

 

[WorstOfHumanity]

Catherine of Aragon was the daughter of the Catholic monarchs of Spain, and her marriage to Henry VIII was part of a diplomatic alliance between England and Spain. If she had lived longer, it's possible that the Spanish influence in England might have been stronger, and that England might have aligned more closely with Catholic Europe. (Likely to happen in a world where she's not renounced and has sons.) I think also this would affect Scotland since there's no chance of union now.

That's fair, though I think from everything that's been said it's pretty much a given that England stays part of Catholic Europe, so staying more aligned with Austria/Spain is to be expected. Scotland would indeed be interesting... assuming succession happens ala OTL, it's possible Queen Mary marries English though far more likely to be French or local

 

[FalconHonour]

Such as?

Well, if Catherine still doesn't have a son - I know that's not the OP, but run with me for a moment here - then Anne Boleyn is ironically safer than she was OTL, because Henry would be too proud to set her aside if it means he risks people thinking that he's come to his senses about Katherine. Meaning Anne would get at least one more chance to have a son, or indeed that she may not miscarry her saviour in 1536...

 

[Cate13]

Well, if Catherine still doesn't have a son - I know that's not the OP, but run with me for a moment here - then Anne Boleyn is ironically safer than she was OTL, because Henry would be too proud to set her aside if it means he risks people thinking that he's come to his senses about Katherine. Meaning Anne would get at least one more chance to have a son, or indeed that she may not miscarry her saviour in 1536...

Totally off topic, but that would be a very interesting POD. A surviving Catherine means Henry keeps Anne around longer, and then either she has a son and Henry keeps her but the rose color glasses are off for both of them, or Anne could have an entirely different downfall, which probably doesn’t end with loosing her head. 🤔

 

[Stahlo]

Speaking of Anne Boleyn, and going back on topic...in a world where Henry isn't under any circumstances divorcing Catherine, does she settle for being a mistress, does he lose interest in her the longer she refuses him, or does she never come up on his radar at all? Or, if she marries Henry Percy in this timeline and he keeps his OTL death date, could she possibly be a second wife after Catherine's death? Any of these options most likely results in a longer, happier life for her.

 

[BoleynBuff]

Speaking of Anne Boleyn, and going back on topic...in a world where Henry isn't under any circumstances divorcing Catherine, does she settle for being a mistress, does he lose interest in her the longer she refuses him, or does she never come up on his radar at all? Or, if she marries Henry Percy in this timeline and he keeps his OTL death date, could she possibly be a second wife after Catherine's death? Any of these options most likely results in a longer, happier life for her.

She definitely won’t be his mistress. I don’t know if she could realistically get Percy. Most likely, she marries some nobleman and stays safely away from Henry.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Speaking of Anne Boleyn, and going back on topic...in a world where Henry isn't under any circumstances divorcing Catherine, does she settle for being a mistress, does he lose interest in her the longer she refuses him, or does she never come up on his radar at all? Or, if she marries Henry Percy in this timeline and he keeps his OTL death date, could she possibly be a second wife after Catherine's death? Any of these options most likely results in a longer, happier life for her.

Anne most likely had no interest in being a royal mistress and since she's not the young contrast to the wife Henry wants to replace, he most likely don't show the same interest in her as otl. And I can't see Henry wanting her as a second wife while the circumstances he began to persue her aren't there. Heck, one of his sons might be interested in her instead!

 

[FalconHonour]

She definitely won’t be his mistress. I don’t know if she could realistically get Percy. Most likely, she marries some nobleman and stays safely away from Henry.

I think if Henry/Wolsey hadn't gotten involved, Anne would have become Countess of Northumberland. Percy was clearly willing to resist his father for her, if not the most powerful men in England... And Thomas Boleyn is hardly going to say no to making his daughter a Countess...

 

[BoleynBuff]

I think if Henry/Wolsey hadn't gotten involved, Anne would have become Countess of Northumberland. Percy was clearly willing to resist his father for her, if not the most powerful men in England... And Thomas Boleyn is hardly going to say no to making his daughter a Countess...

Hmm… Catherine was no friend to Wolsey, and with six sons, Henry is going to side with her. Just for funsies, Catherine could convince her husband to bless the marriage of “Lord Percy and sweet Mistress Boleyn.”