WI: Admiral Yi dies before or during Japan's invasion?

Let's have two scenarios; the first is that Admiral Yi dies before the invasion of Korea by Japan. The second is he dies during it. Worth noting is that both of these scenarios nearly did happen in real life, thanks largely to the politics of the Korean court usually working against Yi.

First scenario is that Yi is killed for a failure against the Jurchens which wasn't his fault, with his friend Yi Il not being able to save him. Was Yi's brilliance overstated, or will Japan conquer Korea without Yi to stop them?

Second is when the king of Korea orders his execution, and the court isn't able to stop it. Without Yi to take command following the disastrous battle of Chilcheollyang, can Korea stop Japan's second invasion again?

I want to add that yes, I'm one of Yi's many, many fanboys. The guy was a legend.
 
He was a legend. But from what I know, I can't see his death making any difference to the end result. Without Yi, Japan will make more progress. But the Ming will have the manpower advantage and I think they can hold out longer.
Although, if the Japanese are doing better and there isn't another admiral who can cause the same trouble that Yi did, then there might not be a Chinese commando to get behind Japanese lines and burn storehouses. This could make a difference in negotiations. In the 1596 negotiations Hideyoshi demanded that the Ming Emperor send a daughter to marry the Japanese emperor, the southern provinces of Korea, normalised trade relations between China & Japan and lastly that a Joseon prince along with several high ranking government officials. With Japan making better progress, then some or all of those demands might be met. Although, I would say that ceding territory might be not acceptable to the Ming under any circumstances.
 
He was a legend. But from what I know, I can't see his death making any difference to the end result. Without Yi, Japan will make more progress. But the Ming will have the manpower advantage and I think they can hold out longer.
If you look at Ming vs Japan, then indeed Ming will win as long as it's willing to pour men into the fight. Will it though? It sure dragged it's feet enough in OTL already. A tributary state loosing 1/3rd of it's territory isn't that much of a problem for the Ming, especially if as part of the deal they get a foot in Japans door.
Not to mention that in OTL WW2 the Nazi invasion of Poland arguably also eventually failed. Didn't save Poland's independence though. Without Yi's victories at the time that Japan had nearly everything else in the war going in it's favour, the Korean gouvernment might collapse or flee to Ming China. Resulting that even in an eventual Japanese defeat, Korea is reduced to a Province of Ming.
 
Korea would probably lose the Imjin War. It might or might not become independent again à la Ireland.
So could it be possible Korea would be divided along Northern and Southern lines like today?
The Korea-Manchuria border might be different, but I don't see any reason for it to lead to a North and South Korea. It's plausible that that could still happen eventually, it just doesn't sound like an immediate consequence.
 
Korea would probably lose the Imjin War. It might or might not become independent again à la Ireland.

The Korea-Manchuria border might be different, but I don't see any reason for it to lead to a North and South Korea. It's plausible that that could still happen eventually, it just doesn't sound like an immediate consequence.
The Ming probably won’t sit by and let themselves lose a tributary, especially since Hideyoshi was planning on invading them as well. So I don’t think this is gonna led to Korea becoming like Ireland, which didn’t have a massive state nearby for protection. But it’s most certainly going to be... extremely difficult for the Koreans in the coming years.
 
The Ming probably won’t sit by and let themselves lose a tributary, especially since Hideyoshi was planning on invading them as well. So I don’t think this is gonna led to Korea becoming like Ireland, which didn’t have a massive state nearby for protection. But it’s most certainly going to be... extremely difficult for the Koreans in the coming years.
The Ming won't be around forever. Ireland was dominated by the English/British for centuries before most of the island became independent. Korea may or may not follow a similar trajectory.
 
The Ming won't be around forever. Ireland was dominated by the English/British for centuries before most of the island became independent. Korea may or may not follow a similar trajectory.
The Ming lasted at least another hundred years after the Imjin War, and speaking as a Northern Irishmen, Ireland isn’t a very poor comparison to use. Whatever help it could get had to cross an ocean to arrive and oh yeah, Britain had a big ass navy in the way. By contrast, Korea has a land border with the Ming, a very big one, and in OTL the Ming did ultimately come to Korea’s aid against Japan.

I’d say it’s likely that Japan’s isolation doesn’t happen now that they have a foothold on Korea’s peninsula, and it becomes a battleground between China and Japan in the coming centuries.
 
The Ming lasted at least another hundred years after the Imjin War, and speaking as a Northern Irishmen, Ireland isn’t a very poor comparison to use. Whatever help it could get had to cross an ocean to arrive and oh yeah, Britain had a big ass navy in the way. By contrast, Korea has a land border with the Ming, a very big one, and in OTL the Ming did ultimately come to Korea’s aid against Japan.

I’d say it’s likely that Japan’s isolation doesn’t happen now that they have a foothold on Korea’s peninsula, and it becomes a battleground between China and Japan in the coming centuries.
A hundred years after the Imjin War isn't forever; it's shorter than the amount of time Britain ruled over Ireland. However, if you don't like Ireland as an example, Poland despite being sandwiched between Germany/HRE and Russia (and occupied by both at various times) did not become subsumed. Again, I'm not saying it's certain that Korea would be seen as a country/nation, but it's not ASB. And that land border between Korea and China is harder to traverse than the ground between Russia, Poland, and Germany/HRE. It's much more mountainous. Finland was at times part of Sweden and at other times part of Russia.

But if we do assume that Korea ends up subsumed, I still don't see how that automatically leads to North and South Korea. If Japan gets the entire peninsula, then it would be a colony/part of Japan. If China gets it, it would be treated as another province of China. If it's partitioned between the two, then part of it would be treated as a province of China and the other part would be a colony/part of Japan, although the partition could be along a line close to OTL border.
 
The Ming lasted at least another hundred years after the Imjin War, and speaking as a Northern Irishmen, Ireland isn’t a very poor comparison to use. Whatever help it could get had to cross an ocean to arrive and oh yeah, Britain had a big ass navy in the way. By contrast, Korea has a land border with the Ming, a very big one, and in OTL the Ming did ultimately come to Korea’s aid against Japan.

I’d say it’s likely that Japan’s isolation doesn’t happen now that they have a foothold on Korea’s peninsula, and it becomes a battleground between China and Japan in the coming centuries.
well considering that more than 1 million Koreans died (they had 7 million population if I'm not mistaken) in 6 years of war. If the war lasts longer, we can have a Korea with the same result as the Paraguayan war. Probably japan will control the south of korea and china the north, with the center being the battlefield. If this occurs ming collapses before otl. Or they come to an agreement and half of korea goes to japan and the rest is "independent". This would give Japan access to good Korean sailors and ships. Which in turn can create a dispute between the Spaniards and the Japanese for the Indonesia/Formosa/Philippines region.
 
If you look at Ming vs Japan, then indeed Ming will win as long as it's willing to pour men into the fight. Will it though? It sure dragged it's feet enough in OTL already. A tributary state loosing 1/3rd of it's territory isn't that much of a problem for the Ming, especially if as part of the deal they get a foot in Japans door.
That is what I was thinking. They have the numbers, but getting that many men to Korea isn't going to be cheap. However, if they do give away a third of Korea, then the Joseon may change their mind about being a tributary. They might even look to do a deal with Japan.
 
That is what I was thinking. They have the numbers, but getting that many men to Korea isn't going to be cheap. However, if they do give away a third of Korea, then the Joseon may change their mind about being a tributary. They might even look to do a deal with Japan.
Given the numerous atrocities committed by Japanese forces against Korea’s population, any deal the Korean court strikes with the invaders is gonna make them wildly unpopular, easily more than in OTL.
 
A couple things worth noting:
1. Hideyoshi is still likely going to die before his heir comes of age, considering he was 62 and his son Hideyori was 5 in 1598. Tokugawa Ieyasu still has great ambitions and the Hideyoshi supporters in Japan, rather than being strengthened by the conquests, will probably need years for their gambit in Korea to actually pay off. Not only will the peninsula's arable lands still be devastated due to the war itself, the primary beneficiaries of the war will need to garrison their new holdings with a not inconsiderable percent of their forces due to guerilla activities. Sekigahara was only 2 years after the Imjin War ended, so the Tokugawa becoming ascendant is not butterflied away.

2. The Ming initially dragged its feet because the Ming court was suspecting the Joseon were collaborating with the Japanese and faking an invasion, based on how quickly the peninsula fell. Hideyoshi's endgoal being the invasion of China itself would likely be enough to get the Ming to commit more heavily in the war than OTL, though supply lines are going to be the main bottleneck. That said, while supplies were a major issue, the internal squabbling between Japanese generals about who would get more glory and their tendency to march faster their their overland supply lines could be established were also a major factor in both the Japanese defeat and the eventual defeat of the Toyotomi clan at Sekigahara.

3. Speaking of supplies, Admiral Yi was vital is cutting off the overseas supply lines for the Japanese, but his absence does not butterfly away the presence of volunteer militias (Righteous Armies) that would harry the Japanese on the peninsula itself or the farmlands being ruined or abandoned during the war. Japanese forces were reported to be extremely brutal with their massacres and the rape of Korean women by Japanese soldiers was a rallying call for the peasantry to rise up. Add to that the monks in their mountain temples and the general terrain of Korea itself (forested mountains and hills everywhere you look) that the locals know from birth and the Japanese will be unfamiliar with, and that's years of unrest that will be difficult to pacify, if ever. The Righteous Armies also co-opted the army's artillery supplies, apparently, so it would be more difficult to gain total control.

4. During negotiations with the Ming, the Ming would not brook the thought of considering Japan an equal. Remember, this is the court that, even when their own armies of tens and hundreds of thousands were getting swept aside by the Later Jin, later Qing, forces, refused to compromise with Hong Taiji and simply give tribute. Hideyoshi is even more brazen than that, demanding not only a Ming princess and recognition of imperial stature the Ming refused to give the Manchu even after incredibly brutal defeats.

5. Hideyoshi only demanded half of Korea probably because he wasn't actively winning anymore. If Japanese forces are doing better than OTL, why would Hideyoshi, the man who intends on usurping the Ming emperor, settle for what he demanded when his final victory was far harder to attain? And that is in direct conflict with 4., so a negotiated peace is not an option, not without a great deal more conflict. Regardless of the situation, you have two parties that lack humility as much as they have bodies to throw into the meatgrinder. Regardless, I would say a north south split is not in cards in this situation. You'd need Hideyoshi tempering his ambitions (which would happen if the war is not going well for Japan) and the Ming getting exhausted much earlier (bit mutually exclusive, those two) to have that happen.

6. Apparently the Japanese also invaded the Jurchen during this whole mess and likely don't intend on playing nice with them, considering Hideyoshi's megalomania and Nurhaci's own ambitions. Heaven cannot brook two suns, after all, and the Jurchen and Japanese cannot both conquer China. And only one of them reliably recruited Ming turncoats and co-opted Ming bureaucracy.

TLDR: Regardless of who wins the war on the field, the Ming have been bullheaded enough to refuse peace and keep fighting with even worse losses rather than recognize another nation as of equal stature. The Japanese are not going to settle on half the peninsula if they seem like they're winning more easily than in OTL, not being led by a megalomaniac like Toyotomi Hideyoshi, so no partition. The Korean countryside is not going to be pacified after the initial wave of brutality, nor will the fields be enough to sustain the locals, let alone the invaders, and as such the Japanese are not going to see returns on their conquest for at least a few decades. Japan is also not going to be stable for long after the war after Toyotomi Hideyoshi dies and leaves behind a child under the ambitious watch of Tokugawa Ieyasu.

Based on all that, I'd say the most likely outcome is that the Ming, after reaching their logistical limits, withdraw to a more defensible border and sign a ceasefire that doesn't acknowledge Japanese gains or gives Hideyoshi what he wants. They'll keep funding the Righteous Armies to harry the Japanese relentlessly. The Japanese daimyos are going to squabble over their gains while also having to put down rebellions constantly, which will drain their forces. I don't believe Admiral Yi's existence is going to alter Hideyoshi's death all that much seeing they weren't within 500 km of each other, so, assuming he dies on schedule, Tokugawa Ieyasu has an easy time rolling over the Toyotomi forces at Sekigahara, now split between Korea and Japan. And at that point, we have rebel daimyos in Japan refusing to submit to the Tokugawa, a vengeful Ming, a turbulent Korean countryside full of rebels, and Jurchen tribes in the process of unifying.
 
Based on all that, I'd say the most likely outcome is that the Ming, after reaching their logistical limits, withdraw to a more defensible border and sign a ceasefire that doesn't acknowledge Japanese gains or gives Hideyoshi what he wants. They'll keep funding the Righteous Armies to harry the Japanese relentlessly. The Japanese daimyos are going to squabble over their gains while also having to put down rebellions constantly, which will drain their forces. I don't believe Admiral Yi's existence is going to alter Hideyoshi's death all that much seeing they weren't within 500 km of each other, so, assuming he dies on schedule, Tokugawa Ieyasu has an easy time rolling over the Toyotomi forces at Sekigahara, now split between Korea and Japan. And at that point, we have rebel daimyos in Japan refusing to submit to the Tokugawa, a vengeful Ming, a turbulent Korean countryside full of rebels, and Jurchen tribes in the process of unifying.
Chaos is a ladder. :p
 
Yi's death doesn't erase the righteous armies that were making hell for Japanese land logistics on Korea to begin with, meaning Japan can't really use the advantage of "safe" sea passages as they would be unable to supply a bigger army anyways.
 
There's this video I watched sometimes ago that went something like this. The Japanese most impressive advantage by far was their speed.

While as people have pointed out here, even without guns outnumbered Ming Army was defeating the Japanese, Korean righteous armies were causing hell and sabotaging the Japanese along with the Chinese, If the Yi dies before the Japanese invasion, then the Japanese can definitely make take Korea in less than a year and make it to Beijing(supplied along the way by a Navy in the Yellow Sea) from Northern Korea in less than 3 months, probably even less than a month.

It took the Ming 3 months to organize an army to deal with pirates in the South and deal with the Japanese in Korea, so the Japanese would be able to make it to Beijing while they are busy trying to organize an army in the country side.

It would be interesting to see a timeline where the Japanese basically kill the Ming Emperor or at least torch Beijing.

Whether they'll be able to take the eventual Chinese retaliation or Korean righteous army uprisings is a different thing I don't know enough to comment about.
 
It would be interesting to see a timeline where the Japanese basically kill the Ming Emperor or at least torch Beijing.
I definitely want to see a Japanese pull off an Alexander the Great-style campaign and begin a kind of Age of Exploration Diadochi period, as I've expressed before. Imagine the Japanese aligning with the Jurchens and kicking off the Fall of the Ming a few decades early, causing China to see warlordism and a new regionalism, with competition getting them to rise to the challenge of Europe.
 
Yi's death doesn't erase the righteous armies that were making hell for Japanese land logistics on Korea to begin with, meaning Japan can't really use the advantage of "safe" sea passages as they would be unable to supply a bigger army anyways.
I mean, they'll be pretty safe supplying contingents on the coast.
If you look at Ming vs Japan, then indeed Ming will win as long as it's willing to pour men into the fight.
If the Japanese can get local collaborators like the Jurchen did or begin recruiting in natives like the Mongols did then they might stand a chance against Ming's numbers. However, I still don't see them winning.
The Ming won't be around forever. Ireland was dominated by the English/British for centuries before most of the island became independent. Korea may or may not follow a similar trajectory.
Ming won't last forever but China will. I see no reason Qing won't require the historic Vassal of Korea nor why the Koreans won't happily invite in their aid.
If this occurs ming collapses before otl. Or they come to an agreement and half of korea goes to japan and the rest is "independent". This would give Japan access to good Korean sailors and ships. Which in turn can create a dispute between the Spaniards and the Japanese for the Indonesia/Formosa/Philippines region.
Naval Japanese seems like an interesting timeline but... why should Qing not collab with Korean rebels to get Korea back and maybe even make it a territory
we have rebel daimyos in Japan refusing to submit to the Tokugawa,
You know, what do you think would happen with the Daimyos and generals in Korea and China, would they turn over to the Tokugawa or rebel in favour of the Previous dynasty.
itself would likely be enough to get the Ming to commit more heavily in the war than OTL
Yeah, with China nar their Capital threatened they could prepare more and better but the Japanese advanced so fast in Korea that I could see them similarly advancing to fast in China that while some general is busy organizing troops for Korea in the country side, the Japanese are already besieging Beijing.
and their tendency to march faster their their overland supply lines could be established
This can be resolved by a naval supply line.
 
Based on all that, I'd say the most likely outcome is that the Ming, after reaching their logistical limits, withdraw to a more defensible border and sign a ceasefire that doesn't acknowledge Japanese gains or gives Hideyoshi what he wants. They'll keep funding the Righteous Armies to harry the Japanese relentlessly. The Japanese daimyos are going to squabble over their gains while also having to put down rebellions constantly, which will drain their forces. I don't believe Admiral Yi's existence is going to alter Hideyoshi's death all that much seeing they weren't within 500 km of each other, so, assuming he dies on schedule, Tokugawa Ieyasu has an easy time rolling over the Toyotomi forces at Sekigahara, now split between Korea and Japan. And at that point, we have rebel daimyos in Japan refusing to submit to the Tokugawa, a vengeful Ming, a turbulent Korean countryside full of rebels, and Jurchen tribes in the process of unifying.
if what you are talking about happens
1-tokugawa will not be able to go into isolation
2-this vengeful ming will collapse before doing any revenge.
3- Korea is decimated (I guess at least half of the population will die if not more)
4- the jurchen take china more easily

Righteous Armies aren't armies, they're rebellious peasants. I don't see serious problems for the Japanese armies in this regard.Adding this to the famine that will occur in korea.
Who will win in this fight between japan, ming and jurchen I don't know. But the Ming dynasty is dead. Tokugawa may not be able to retreat from Korea without looking weak. So in theory after the unification of the new shogunate, japan will take part of korea
 
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