As the title, how do you make OTL Indonesia be majority of the Christian faith by ATL 2016? Or something close to it? Can it be done? What affects would this have on Asia.
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WI/ACH: Christian Indonesia
- Thread starter Historyman 14
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Once they are Islamized, the possibility of converting the country to Christianity decreases dramatically. As far as I can tell, there would need to be a situation like the Philippines, in which Christianization followed outright conquest by a European nation. The previous Hindu kingdoms would be more difficult to conquer for a European power than the Philippine islands and European nations would not have the capability to do so easily before Islam established itself there.
As for effects on Asia, it I expect there would be relatively fewer than one might think.
As for effects on Asia, it I expect there would be relatively fewer than one might think.
I think the best way for it to happen would be for Indonesia (and by that I mean Java and Sumatra) to somehow throw out Islamic missionaries and vigorously persecute converts. Doing so might be possible do to the fact that it is very unlikely that any Muslim state would be able or willing to attempt to use force against a Hindu kingdom in the way that some Christian European nations might have been capable of doing. After years of proselytizing and colonization, some, though not all, of Indonesia would probably be converted to Christianity leaving a country resembling modern day Korea. Because this process would leave more Hindus. The reason this might be the case is that such a scenario requires a coherent Hindu state to have to have existed in a stronger form for longer thereby establishing the religion better. I speculate that the country would have both more strife between different religious groups and at the same time, more religious plurality (yet also fragmentation) and thus, a greater concern among each group of one religious group attaining too much influence over others. I suppose this low level (assuming it is peaceful) struggle between competing could make secular governance more secure by virtue of its necessity to hold the nation together. Again, this is all casual speculation and I'm sure its full of holes but there's my two cents.
Which sect do you have in mind? Because I think the best chance is to replace the Islamic influence that led to conversion with Christian influence. So basically a Church of the East wank--the Church of the East evidently had a minor presence in the Indonesia area at one point OTL, so we need to expand it. So maybe a strong Christian presence in Oman and other parts of coastal Arabia, leaders in the Gujarat and Kerala region convert, hopefully also a Tamil leader, you can lay the groundwork for the continued spread of Christianity through the trade routes and eventually the conversion of Indonesia.
The easiest way to do the above is to have Persia convert to Christianity (almost certainly be Nestorianism/Church of the East) and let the butterflies flap from there. It might be possible to do the above with Persia remaining Zoroastrian (or even allowing for Islam to exist, but that's really hard).
The easiest way to do the above is to have Persia convert to Christianity (almost certainly be Nestorianism/Church of the East) and let the butterflies flap from there. It might be possible to do the above with Persia remaining Zoroastrian (or even allowing for Islam to exist, but that's really hard).
All right. Indonesia stay Hindu-Buddhist. Any ideas on how things would turn out then?
What? Zoroastrianism is a very ethnic religion, and it only spread IOTL when Persian culture spread. Indonesia isn't Persian at all, and the dualism of the Vedic religion long died in Hinduism.
Indonesia is in many ways culturally similar to South India. Before Islam, it was more like South India than North India was, so you may see a unified South Indian-Indonesian identity contrasting with a North Indian identity.
That wasn't much at all. He didn't convert many and they didn't really convert any after the initial conversion. Any sort of Indonesia St. Thomas would see the same barriers.
Well, this is an ATL, one could propose a stronger conversion of Southern India, or at least of Arabia and Ethiopia, leading to Christian missionary traders going east into Malacca.
What about during post-1400 and Europeans try to succeed in getting Christianity to supplant Islam?
Indonesia is not Iberia. Area is far from Spain, Portugal and other European nations. They hardly can enforce Christianity when Islam has already quiet strong foothold there. So probably it is too late.
You'd need Spain/Portugal to conquer Indonesia in the 16th century and try and convert the locals by force. I don't forsee good results in that approach. Plus Spain's already occupied doing the exact same thing in the New World at that point. And Indonesia doesn't have convenient plagues to wipe out the majority of its people.
Hell, Portugal couldn't even permanently maintain a foothold in Ternate, an island slightly bigger than Manhattan with less than 10,000 inhabitants.
What about a scenario where the Hindu-Buddhist Kingdoms are able to defeat the Muslims but are weakened in their wars and are easy pickings for European conquistadors?
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1. Muslims weren't foreign conquerors, so "hold off" is a bad choice of terminology. Except in Java, Muslim dynasties and often kingdoms were more-or-less the same as the pre-Islamic dynasties and kingdoms.
2. Due to the above, surviving Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms would not be any stronger or weaker than Muslim kingdoms.
3. Wars or no wars, European conquistadors have no chance in most of Indonesia due to lack of accidental biological weaponry and insufficient technological superiority.
The only way the Portuguese or Spanish will prevail in Indonesia is if the Hindu Buddhist Kingdoms are weak kingdoms due to a power vacuum after majapahit and sri vijaya and the muslims are yet to convert them - this is the situation in the parts of eastern indonesia and certain parts of the philippines, and also the other situation is that the Hindu kingdoms or chiefdoms convert to christianity in order to get support against the muslims.
It probably would also mean that Cortez fails (and thus Pizarro never sets out) and there is no massive Spanish empire in the New World. Maybe Spain might focus more on Indonesia, although again, they'll hardly have an easy time of things. The New World is easy modo compared to what they'd be dealing with here.
What if the european countries started their age of discoveries a century earlier and arrived when the islam had not het an dominant position.
For the islam was brought by merchants from India Persia and Arabia we can them compete with merchants and missionaries from Portugal Castille Aragon and so on .just an idea
For the islam was brought by merchants from India Persia and Arabia we can them compete with merchants and missionaries from Portugal Castille Aragon and so on .just an idea
Riain
Banned
Given the conversion to Islam occurred in the 1200-1600s, a time when Islam was resurgent in the Mid East and placing a bloc of Islamic states between Europe and Asia, I think that is the time to start. If the Crusader States and Byzantium were more successful in the 1100s then perhaps the Islamic states would be focused on saving their own skins and have less resources to engage South East Asia with, leaving more of a blank slate for the Western Europeans to play with in the 1500s.