What if the US is inspired even more by Rome?

[redplznotake]

This scenario is hypothetical: What if the United States system was based on the Roman Republican? Let's say the American founders are enamored by every part of Roman culture and construct a nation based on Rome. First to make it easier for this new America let's assume they never wrote any documents on how the government is run until after they won the War of Independence.

There is a Senate that is elected in New York City and that Senate elects 2 Presidents who are allowed to raise armies, the senate also creates laws, they serve 2 years the presidents also serve 2 year terms. To be eligible to vote you need to own at least 1/4 acre or 10k square feet in New York City and have served in the military for at least 2 years. You also must be a citizen and citizenship is acquired by owning land in the territory of the United States and military service or being the son of someone who is a citizen (woman can't get citizenship). This means nobody can get naturalized without owning land and joining the military and a very tiny amount of people can vote. As for other questions like slavery since the founders appreciated the Romans in this timeline they would love slavery. They decide that enemies of the United States such as the Native Americans should be enslaved because that's what the Romans would have done.

After somehow agreeing to this semi-roman-esque system many states would seek to leave the United States. Let's say due to the victory against the British patriotism is high enough that only a few try to leave, perhaps the ones more bothered by the official endorsement of slavery such as New England and Pennsylvania. The other states decide to stay with the Union and fight. (War starts October 1783 after they hear about the constitution)


(First American Civil-War (Ignore the dates on the map))

Assuming most of the competent generals remain with this Roman United States they should be able to win.

Alternate Battles:

Battle of Harrisburg (1783)
2,500 militia led by Samuel Smith of Pennsylvania fought against 5,000 Union forces led by General Henry Knox. The Pennsylvania Militia was ill-equipped for battle and faced ammunition shortages. After the Union forces captured the surrounding hills the militia surrendered and Pennsylvania was lost expect for a few guerilla fighters.

Siege of Boston (1784)

After some smaller battles, the Union decided to go for the prize itself, Boston, and besiege it. ~11,000 men led by President George Washington and Senator James Clinton. President John Adams led the naval detachment that was also engaged in the siege. They faced ~7,000 defenders led by Nathanael Greene. The strategy of the defenders was to wait until winter and hope that the Union army would leave. This didn't work, thus the defenders were forced to sally out, their attack was disastrous President George Washington already fought in Boston before and thought of every possible way to break out of a siege since he was besieged there before by the British. The troops of the rebels were led into ambush after ambush before eventually surrendering.

Small-scale guerilla warfare would continue for longer but the final rebel leaders would surrender on September 11 1785.

(Any thoughts below and any ideas please comment, constructive criticism is appreciated.)

 

[Lalli]

If USA decides go fully Roman or at least as close as possible, shouldn't senate being organ where is accepted only Founding Fathers and their legitimite male lineage descendants and perhaps people who had notable career on army or had succesful political career on other administrative could are promoted to senator class? There would be indeed two consuls but perhaps ratherly four years terms instead two years since two years would be pretty short time. For voting rights I would ratherly give them everybody citizens who own enough of land. Otherwise rest of USA would be pissed when New Yorkerws can vote but others can't. Otherwise looks pretty good.

 

[redplznotake]

If USA decides go fully Roman or at least as close as possible, shouldn't senate being organ where is accepted only Founding Fathers and their legitimite male lineage descendants and perhaps people who had notable career on army or had succesful political career on other administrative could are promoted to senator class? There would be indeed two consuls but perhaps ratherly four years terms instead two years since two years would be pretty short time. For voting rights I would ratherly give them everybody citizens who own enough of land. Otherwise rest of USA would be pissed when New Yorkerws can vote but others can't. Otherwise looks pretty good.

For the Senate only people able to vote in the Senate elections can serve in the Senate (I should have made that more clear) and to vote in those elections "To be eligible to vote you need to own at least 1/4 acre or 10k square feet in New York City and have served in the military for at least 2 years"

So you already need military service and own land the only exception is the founding fathers who are grandfathered in but I'd assume many others who want to get into politics would buy land in New York and move their official addresses there even if they lived elsewhere.

Otherwise voting rights at the state and local levels are still decided on a state-by-state basis. We assumed it went well so the scenario could continue and only a few states decided to leave but they managed to defeat them securing the existence of this America for the foreseeable future. This is due to the fact they can elect local officials and they are already used to not having power over electing the head of state. In OTL at first, they just wanted the ability to elect local/state leaders which they ended up getting so most are satisfied.

(I probably need to write this in the lore and make it more clear)

 

[Well]

If USA decides go fully Roman or at least as close as possible, shouldn't senate being organ where is accepted only Founding Fathers and their legitimite male lineage descendants and perhaps people who had notable career on army or had succesful political career on other administrative could are promoted to senator class? There would be indeed two consuls but perhaps ratherly four years terms instead two years since two years would be pretty short time. For voting rights I would ratherly give them everybody citizens who own enough of land. Otherwise rest of USA would be pissed when New Yorkerws can vote but others can't. Otherwise looks pretty good.

I think a pair of consuls who serve for a single year term would actually be a plausible executive structure and an interesting counterfactual.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

I think a pair of consuls who serve for a single year term would actually be a plausible executive structure and an interesting counterfactual.

There were lots of OTL plans with multiple Executives. It is certainly possible.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Otherwise voting rights at the state and local levels are still decided on a state-by-state basis.

in which case, two or three states allowed both women and freed slaves to vote until the Jefferson administration

 

[Avrorrange]

Being students of Roman history themselves, they probably try to improve upon some of the institutions. Like consuls having multi-year terms instead of single year terms.

 

[Dan1988]

Well, there is always taking the San Marino model and expanding it (with a tricameral Parliament not far from what Simon Bolivar was thinking of. So a Presidium in the roles of the Captains-Regent, the Congress of State in the role of a Cabinet in a parliamentary government but without a Prime Minister (the Foreign Minister in this case filling in the gap), and a Federal Assembly as the Parliament, divided into a Censorate, a Senate, and a Chamber of Tribunes (with the last one equivalent to the OTL Sammarinese Parliament). Having the US like San Marino 🇸🇲 would be interesting to see.

 

[redplznotake]

So far the United States has been ruled by semi-official Congresses followed by a Senate and its 2 presidents but in truth, they hold little power on raising income or enforcing their laws. The country was able to stay together due to the personal connections of the founders but when they died off the states would drift further and further apart. Some of the Federalist founders saw this civil war as a uniting force that could finally force the nation to come closer together. They knew they couldn't go too far but they could probably finally get the states to agree to pay some sort of tax to the Senate at least and enshrine some things they held dear. Meanwhile, the most radical Anti-Federalists saw the Civil War as proof the country didn't need to centralize anymore and that it was united without a strong central government. Most of the more moderate Anti-Federalists agreed however that the Articles of Confederation must go and that it'd be impossible to run a country with them.

So in 1786, 34 delegates from all 13 colonies except the ones that rebelled would attend a constitutional convention. (Some loyalists from those states would be honorary guests and would sign on their behalf) The US Senate composed mostly of US Generals and Admirals (John Adams, Henry Knox, George Washington) would also be in attendance.

Firstly as for the easy questions in this timeline. Without the influence of New England and Pennsylvania, most of the delegation would never have discussed banning slavery or banning the slave trade. This is especially true since the Senate approved a statement endorsing it as punishment for war which was one of the things causing the civil war in the first place.

Secondly, most would agree that regulation of interstate commerce would be in the hands of the Senate and that the Senate should have the power to issue currency.

This would leave the biggest debate to be how much power should the Senate/Central government have especially since it's elected in New York City. On some issues they would manage to agree: States can decide how their elections are run, if they have one governor in their state or no governor at all, and generally, most things that don't violate the supremacy of the Senate such as a state minting its own currency or imposing border restrictions between other states. However, the issue of taxes would be controversial, to compromise and get the first part of this constitution signed they would agree that for every tax dollar the Senate raises from a state it gives back 10 cents to that state's government. This would relax some moderate Anti-Federalists and allow the first part of the Constitution to be agreed on.

(Any thoughts and ideas/criticism?)

 

[Lothal]

If USA decides go fully Roman or at least as close as possible, shouldn't senate being organ where is accepted only Founding Fathers and their legitimite male lineage descendants and perhaps people who had notable career on army or had succesful political career on other administrative could are promoted to senator class? There would be indeed two consuls but perhaps ratherly four years terms instead two years since two years would be pretty short time. For voting rights I would ratherly give them everybody citizens who own enough of land. Otherwise rest of USA would be pissed when New Yorkerws can vote but others can't. Otherwise looks pretty good.

maybe have the constitution have an enshrined requirement of owning of property or land for either voting, holding office, or citizenry? This would essentially be Jeffersonian Democracy without the desire to expand the franchise.

Another fun constitution: the 1776 Pennsylvania Constitution with a 12 member directoral executive with a selected president chosen by the directory

 

[redplznotake]

This part of the constitution would be entirely written by members of the Senate. It would rule how the Senate functions.

Every Senator would serve 2-year terms including the Presidents, and only landed men (meaning a 1/4 acre of land in New York City) who served in the military for 2 years and currently live in New York City could vote in this election. This part of the constitution would also dictate that citizenship is earned by serving in the military or being a descendant of someone who served. All who served in the Civil War and War of Independence would be grandfathered in as citizens.

Senators would be divided first into two groups, ~25% of the Senators would be elected east of the Brooklyn River, and ~75% of them would be elected west of the Brooklyn River. These populations would also elect one President each. Then afterwards, all citizens (even non-landed citizens) in each area would be allowed to reject or accept the President elected on their side of New York. If the majority rejects then they have to elect a different president on that side.

The Senate would be divided into different classes. Class one also called the speakers of the Senate (called that because they are the first to speak after the Presidents) would consist of 20 senators. Class two referred to as the front benchers speak sometimes if an issue is controversial and being hotly debated they consist of 30 senators. Class 3 is referred to as the backbenchers and they are often people who just started their ambitious political careers or old timers who never moved up in the senate they consist of 45 senators, Class four is called the mute senators since they aren't allowed to talk unless a higher ranking senator calls them up to, their votes however are incredibly valuable consisting of over 95 senators.

Whoever speaks in the Senate can also bring up a bill to vote on, if that bill passes it then goes to the People's Committee. The People's Committee is a 30-person committee of random citizens from the original 13 colonies and New York (similar to the Roman tribal assembly) who have an absolute veto over any bill. Citizens would be assigned to the People's Committee like one gets assigned jury duty, to refuse you would be breaking the law. If you did get assigned on a People's Committee you would have 10 days to come to New York. Anyone who incurs losses because of being assigned to the People's Committee would be compensated a reasonable amount. The People's Committee would change every 30 days.

If however the majority of the People's Committee approves a bill and that bill doesn't violate the Constitution then it becomes the law of the entire United States. Any constitutional changes would need approval by the People's Committee and 3/4th of the original 13 states.