What if the allies intercepted the German air raid at Bari, Italy, on December 2, 1943?

What if the allies intercepted the German air raid at Bari, Italy, on December 2, 1943?

This was an air raid by the German forces in Italy against a major allied logistical port on the east coast of Italy. It was apparently a major supply depot, left weakly defended by British forces since they believed that the Germans did not possess much air power on the Italian Front.

The raid is notable for the fact that many allied ships docked at facility contained the chemical weapon 'mustard gas'. A wikipedia source used for this posting suggests it was stored in response to German threats to use chemical weapons in Italy, but other Youtube based historical sources (anything on the internet is of mixed quality) suggests that the allies were intending to use these weapons if the Italian front became too static and they wanted to speed up the progress of the front. This source states that the Germans became aware of the chemical weapons stored at the port of Bari, and allied plans to potentially use them, and decided to use a pre-emptive strike. Other sources state they were stored there "just 'in case' they were needed."

The results of the raid were fairly destructive, giving it the name "the Little Pearl Harbor." Twenty eight ships were knocked out of commission, and around 2,000 military and non-military personnel died (officially). Many of the deaths and injuries were undoubtedly the result of people being exposed to mustard gas chemicals, released into the air or water. Many of the medical personnel who responded to the casualties did not understand what the air raid victims were exposed to, since these chemical munitions were largely kept secret.

What if allied intelligence knew about the planned German raid and managed to intercept it?

The result could have been a costly air battle for both sides, with more severe long term impacts on the German side. Depending on the severity of losses, it could have hurt the Germans long term defense capabilities.

The allies probably would have realized that the Germans were aware of their chemical weapons plans, assuming it was not just retalitory in nature (whichI think). The ships would been quickly moved. The allies probably would have realized that the Germans would try again to target these chemical munitions, either by plane, submarine, or both, where ever the allies tried to hide them.

There probably would have been a struggle within the allied command to either use them relatively soon or just remove them entirely out of the theater of operations. If the faction advocating immediate use of these weapons won out, and these weapons were deployed against the German front line in Italy, WW2 could have been a very different football game.

Depending on how effectively the allies deployed these weapons, the German front at the time could have quickly collapsed. The outcome of the Italian front would have depended on how quickly the allies would have been able to exploit this temporary advantage and how fast Hitler could have resupplied the gassed out German Army in Italy. Reinforcements would most likely come in from the Austrian/Yugoslav side of Italy. To slow this process down, the allies would have had to contact and coordinate with any Italian or Yugoslav partisan groups operating in the area.

The other impact of allied use chemical weapons in Italy would have been a change in German attitude toward use of weapons of mass destruction. Being a victim of chemical weapons in WWI, Hilter may have paused to listen to those in his command who argued that chemical weapons were not very accurate and hard to control. However, Hitler probably would have barked back to his generals and engineers to start figuring out how to canister these chemical weapons inside missiles and airplane bombs.

Then the war would have become the first long term experiment in the use of weapons off mass destruction. We probably would have seen the sped up production of ballistic missile systems on the part of the Germans, who would be quick to recognize them as the ideal delivery system for these types of weapons.

I suspect that the Germans would have exploited the propaganda "value" of many Italians dying as collateral damage during an allied chemical weapons attack. It probably would have been easy to portray the allied liberators as reckless and destructive "monsters" if many noncombatant Italian villagers became victims of these chemical weapons.

The fact that the allies covered the whole thing up during and after the war suggests to me that they had more than just potential retaliatory intentions with these chemical weapons. Whatever their intentions were, the Germans put an end to these plans and woke the allies up in the process.

I have given my answer to this "what if" question, look forward to yours.

Brian Ghilliotti
 
I don't know what the results of intercepting the Bari air raid would've had but as for the Nazis exploiting the deaths of Italian civilians, Himmler when told by an SS officer (a veteran of WWI) that people appeared to be dying of exposure to mustard gas. Himmler ordered that it be kept secret so that they could study the results of the poison gas on the local populace, surprisingly the SS officer ignored the order and secretly informed Italian doctors in German occupied territory to treat the injured for exposure to mustard gas.
The Italian doctors then informed the Red Cross.
 
I don't see the incident causing chemical weapons to be used. It might retard the development of chemotherapy.
 
I don't see the incident causing chemical weapons to be used. It might retard the development of chemotherapy.
 
Also three points:
1. Only one cargo ship carried CBW munitions the John Harvey.
2. There is no plausible reason to assume the Germans were aware of the cargo.
3. Use of chemical weapons would have to be authorised at head-of-state level.
 
Also three points:
1. Only one cargo ship carried CBW munitions the John Harvey.
2. There is no plausible reason to assume the Germans were aware of the cargo.
3. Use of chemical weapons would have to be authorised at head-of-state level.
I don't think the Germans were aware of the cargo on the ship and even if they knew the odds that they would hit that ship I think would be very low, it just bad luck.
 
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Deleted member 1487

More dead Germans, less dead US servicemen and Italian civilians. Not sure what if anything actually changes beyond that.
 
If anyone on the Allied side was stupid enough to use mustard gas in Italy then the Nazis would have felt perfectly justified in hitting back, with Tabun. All sorts of ugliness would ensue. It's more likely it was there just in case the other side used gas first.
 
I think what brings things into context is the British stopping using White Phosphorus artillery shells for marking fall of shot in Normandy after the German Commanders 'complained' due to the horrific wounds they caused.

The British who had been using them purely because they made really good marker shells for identifying fall of shot almost over night woke up to the concern that the use of them would be seen as using Chemical weapons and almost immediately stopped using them.

They used standard HE shells instead.

So with that level of Angst being given for WP shells I cannot see the British or the Americans using Mustard gas (certainly as first users).
 
I think what brings things into context is the British stopping using White Phosphorus artillery shells for marking fall of shot in Normandy after the German Commanders 'complained' due to the horrific wounds they caused.

The British who had been using them purely because they made really good marker shells for identifying fall of shot almost over night woke up to the concern that the use of them would be seen as using Chemical weapons and almost immediately stopped using them.

They used standard HE shells instead.

So with that level of Angst being given for WP shells I cannot see the British or the Americans using Mustard gas (certainly as first users).
I don't believe the Allies ever intended to use chemical weapons first but they did want to be able retaliate in kind if the Axis in desperation used chemicals first.
 

Deleted member 1487

I think what brings things into context is the British stopping using White Phosphorus artillery shells for marking fall of shot in Normandy after the German Commanders 'complained' due to the horrific wounds they caused.

The British who had been using them purely because they made really good marker shells for identifying fall of shot almost over night woke up to the concern that the use of them would be seen as using Chemical weapons and almost immediately stopped using them.

They used standard HE shells instead.

So with that level of Angst being given for WP shells I cannot see the British or the Americans using Mustard gas (certainly as first users).
You sure about that? I know the Germans stopped using them for fear that they'd be mistaken for use of chemical weapons. The US on the other hand love WP and used it all the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White...ar_I.2C_the_inter-war_period_and_World_War_II
At the start of the Normandy campaign, 20% of American 81 mm mortar rounds were white phosphorus. At least five American Medal of Honor citations mention their recipients using white phosphorus grenades to clear enemy positions, and in the 1944 liberation of Cherbourg alone, a single U.S. mortar battalion, the 87th, fired 11,899 white phosphorus rounds into the city. The U.S. Army and Marines used white phosphorus shells in 107-mm (4.2 inch) mortars. White phosphorus was widely credited by Allied soldiers for breaking up German infantry attacks and creating havoc among enemy troop concentrations during the latter part of the war. US Sherman tanks carried a white phosphorus round intended for artillery spotting, but tank crews found it useful against German tanks. Unable to penetrate German Panther and Tiger tanks at long range, the phosphorus round would adhere to the tank, generate smoke, blind the optics, and often force the crew to abandon the tank or allow US tanks to close to a range where their armor piercing rounds were effective.

When American bombers raided Negros Island in the Philippines in 1945, there was a Japanese artillery use of phosphorus bombs during the air raid.[4]
 
If anyone on the Allied side was stupid enough to use mustard gas in Italy then the Nazis would have felt perfectly justified in hitting back, with Tabun. All sorts of ugliness would ensue. It's more likely it was there just in case the other side used gas first.
This. It was common practice to keep CW munitions ready for use, just in case.
 
I don't know what the results of intercepting the Bari air raid would've had but as for the Nazis exploiting the deaths of Italian civilians, Himmler when told by an SS officer (a veteran of WWI) that people appeared to be dying of exposure to mustard gas. Himmler ordered that it be kept secret so that they could study the results of the poison gas on the local populace, surprisingly the SS officer ignored the order and secretly informed Italian doctors in German occupied territory to treat the injured for exposure to mustard gas.
The Italian doctors then informed the Red Cross.

Where and when did this happen? What is your source?
The only Italian victims of poison gas in WWII that I know of where the civilians in Bari, in consequence of this bombing. And Bari was deep behind the front lines, no SS officers around unless they were in POW camps.
So I'd really like to know where this story comes from.
 
Where and when did this happen? What is your source?
The only Italian victims of poison gas in WWII that I know of where the civilians in Bari, in consequence of this bombing. And Bari was deep behind the front lines, no SS officers around unless they were in POW camps.
So I'd really like to know where this story comes from.
World War II Magazine, I don't remember which issue and I no longer have the magazine. I think reports from pro-Mussolini Italian intel. operatives sent reports about casualties and their symptoms.
 
Thank you. Very fishy.
Your welcome.
While one magazine article isn't indisputable truth, I don't find it hard to believe that Himmler would want to learn what the results from the exposure to mustard gas was on the local population. What is hard to believe is that an SS officer disagreed with Himmler and secretly disobeyed the order and got the needed information to the medical personal in Bari.
 
World War II Magazine, I don't remember which issue and I no longer have the magazine. I think reports from pro-Mussolini Italian intel. operatives sent reports about casualties and their symptoms.

Plausible, tho we'd need more reliable sources. The Axis did have stay behind radio stations & assorted agents in Allied territory.
 
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