I understand the reasons for the Franco-German rivalry, but they don't change the fact that they would be fighting over a tiny strip of land, when both France and Germany had other and greater interests elsewhere. Is it so implausible then to suppose that if circumstances had been a little different, the leaders of these countries would have seen reason and agreed to an alliance? The past is as it is, but one must allso worry about the future.
What If: Franco-German reconciliation in 1871?
- Thread starter Easterling
- Start date
Any reconciliation between Germany and France either has to go the way of OTL; ie, both beat each other up so severely they end up in the hospital together and have no choice but to get along - which is basically what the result of WW I + II boiled down to - or - and this is a rather long shot - would require a substantial external threat they can only overcome by banding together.
- Kelenas
- Kelenas
The Hohenzollern are nto the Hapsburgs. Sometimes they fought against the French, sometimes they allied with them.
And France can't claim the Rhine border any more. It's too weak for that.
Maybe not a "substantial threat" but both countries did have a great common rival: England, which was threatening their interests in the colonies. If France and Germany could agree to support eachother in colonial disputes, they could win a lot more that a tiny strip of land along the Rhine.
Germany was on the rise and did not even bother to hide it's hegemonic ambition. Why would France want an alliance with such a power?
Because France shoul by then give up any of it's own hegemonic ambitions, and because Germany wil need allies if it's serious about any kind of hegemonic project.
More reasons why the German leaders should have come to their senses and appeased France while there was still time.
Pot calling the Kettle Black ....
Ummmm lemme think .... because it reminds them so much of themselves ?!?!!
Berniep2
Ummmm lemme think .... because it reminds them so much of themselves ?!?!!
Berniep2
As Friederich III noted ... Bismarck built a system that only he could keep in motion and on course ... The German Empire (And Weimar after 1918) never had a political system in place that rewarded rational decision making .... after the Machtergreifung (sp) in 1933, there were only ennobled Chicken Farmers (Himmler) and Megalomaniacal dictators in charge.
It seems trite to say it but I keep being reminded of the masterful job that the framers of the US Constitution (1789) did in laying out a workable framework that had contained in it the ability to change and adapt to new needs (although truth be told it also bears the history of dumb decisions -- 18th Amendment and the 21st amendment -- Liquor Prohibition)...
Berniep2
Berniep2
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Here is the problem with your scenario, it requires the French to come to Germany hat in hand saying, ' Thank you for getting rid of our bad ruler, could you please promise to protect us in the future and we'll be there to back you up in your ventures?' Bismark can't be the initiator. Hoping that if you're nice about crushing a country that's been meddling in your country for 400 years and working at every turn to make sure you never united then they'll understand that it's been a good fight, but it's over and they're number two is a terrible foreign policy.
David S Poepoe
Banned
I would contend that post-WWII France continued to have hegemonic ambitions until the turn of the 21st century. Heck, its entirely likely that Paris will slowly go its own way today and leave Berlin by itself.
Well, things like this do happen in history occasionally...
We'll see about the future, but for now France seems to have accepted that it needs Germany (and Germany that it needs France). Why couldn't such an acceptance have come earlier?
I don´t deny that. But (a) even if the minor German prinicipalities (except those bordering France) hadn´t been the target of French ambition, the population of those had been suffering the most under French meddling. Few of the fighting had taken place in Habsburgs realms or France. Much of it had taken place on German soil.
And (b) in the 19th century Prussia took more and more the place Austria had had in traditional French political strategy for two reasons: They had regions France wanted (the Rhine province) and they were the strongest power east of France, which had to be contained at all costs.
Never underestimate what national chauvinism is capable of. Bolivia still has a navy for the time it regains the access to the sea lost 130 years ago. France didn´t really give up on the Rhine border until after WWI, when no one backed there claim for it.
Colonies are a minor issue for Germany until Bismarcks steps down. He was very critical of them, since they interferred with the good relations to other nations and their usefullness was dubious to him from the beginning.
To be fear Germany is also guilty of chauvinism and having huge ambition the Poland was a good exemples.
In 1870-71 Prussia/Germany hadn't even started thinking seriously about colonies.
Would have been better if they'd actually stated clearly whether or not seccession was legally possible, too...
French chauvinism was greatly increased by the German annexation of Alsace-Lorraine. Their reasoning was that "as long as we are going to war with germany for Alsace Lorraine, we might as well grab the rest of the western bank of the Rhine."
If they had thought about it with a cool head, they would have realised earlier tha tthe ideea is unreasonable.
And the Bolivian exmple is not very good. I understand why two nations would fight endlessly about a tiny strip of land. Heck! I'm from eastern Europe. We do this all the time here. If you are a small country with an inferiority complex yo do tins kind of things. But if you are a great power with geat power ambitions, you need to make small sacrifices for greater gains later (and grabbing colonies was just an exemple).
Snake Featherston
Banned
This makes sense only in hindsight, in the 19th Century the culture and societies of the time would never have stood for it.
Snake Featherston
Banned
A major problem here is that Germany came from Prussia, which for a very long time was ally and arguably the German proxy state of Russia. Russia and France have rivalries that are very long-term by comparison to the Franco-German rivalry, and both relied on their particular proxies. For Germany to shift to an alliance with France means a probable Austro-Russo-British alliance against Germany and France. For all the rhetoric of the war of Germandom and Slavdom, Prussia came to be the juggernaut that unified Germany solely on the goodwill of the Tsars.
If Germany decides to alienate Russia to get French support, you get ultimately something very unpleasant....for Germany.
Snake Featherston
Banned
To be fair IOTL France ultimately wound up in an alliance with Russia, so France allying with would-be-hegemons is not *entirely* unfeasible. The problem is that Russia preferred an alliance with Germany more than France did, so any occcasion where Germany looks to its OTL enemies for an alliance will see more of a continuity of Hohenzollerns and Romanovs: The Buddy Comedy than anything else.