What if: Apollo 10 landed on the Moon?

[Earthy05]

Picture this: May 22nd 1969, commander Tom Stafford and lunar module pilot Gene Cernan bring their LM Snoopy down to within 14km of the lunar surface. Unbeknownst to NASA and the public, they've made an agreement to land on the surface. They do so, and Tom Stafford becomes the first man to set foot on the Moon.

You can interpret what happens after this how you'd like, how could it change NASA and world history? Would the Apollo 10 crew even be able to get home with Snoopy's above normal weight for a lunar takeoff?

 

[HARRY]

I don't see military personal working for NASA disobeying the rules its how to get a court martial or killed. What could happen is that the US becomes aware that the Soviets have launch a Luna bound rocket so accelerate the landing program to beat the to the moons surface.

 

[juanml82]

What if they become unable to return because their gamble doesn't pay and they manage to land successfully, but either can't take off or make it to orbit or RV with the orbiting module? And the history of humankind's first landing in another body is that of a crew who died doing it because they took too many risks?

 

[ByteMe]

I've heard that NASA intentionally under-fuelled the upper stage, and let the crew know it, so that they would be dissuaded from a landing attempt. So in any situation, Stafford and Cernan would probably die from impact or suffocation.

 

[Polish Eagle]

Would the Apollo 10 crew even be able to get home with Snoopy's above normal weight for a lunar takeoff?

It's not so much the above-normal weight as the under-normal propellant load (which was because of the above-normal weight). Snoopy carried only half the ascent propellant Eagle did. That's a delta-v of only 1.33 km/s, or over 500 m/s short of orbit. The only way they could even rendezvous with the CM would be an extremely dangerous maneuver where the CSM puts itself on a sub-orbital trajectory and picks them up on the first try (or else both plunge down to the Moon)--and even that would just be John Young joining the suicide pact since it would leave the CSM unable to return to Earth.

I've heard that NASA intentionally under-fuelled the upper stage, and let the crew know it, so that they would be dissuaded from a landing attempt. So in any situation, Stafford and Cernan would probably die from impact or suffocation.

That is what Cernan said--only half the normal propellant load.

 

[Post]

I don't see military personal working for NASA disobeying the rules its how to get a court martial or killed. What could happen is that the US becomes aware that the Soviets have launch a Luna bound rocket so accelerate the landing program to beat the to the moons surface.

I don't see the first men on the moon getting court-martialled.

 

[Earthy05]

Snoopy irl had enough fuel to land, and I guess to make this work NASA would have to (foolishly) trust the astronauts and fuel the ascent stage fully

 

[Earthy05]

I don't see military personal working for NASA disobeying the rules its how to get a court martial or killed. What could happen is that the US becomes aware that the Soviets have launch a Luna bound rocket so accelerate the landing program to beat the to the moons surface.

Astronauts have done dumb stuff irl, this would be drastic but tbh not out of the question

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Snoopy irl had enough fuel to land, and I guess to make this work NASA would have to (foolishly) trust the astronauts and fuel the ascent stage fully

Yes

Or enough people at the Cape were in on the "conspiracy" to fuel it surreptitiously.

Mission Control at Houston wouldn't have been ready with the landing protocols though. According to Gene Kranz's autobiography his team were working on them until June. While the first draft was ready a week before the Apollo 10 mission they had not finalised the Go-No Go rules for each stage the descent. Indeed, they had to amend them in July after the final simulation run when a computer error message led to an abort being called. Unnecessarily according to the Simulation team pointing out the errors made by the flight control team. ( This change in rules was vital to the actual landing as the same error message was experienced. )

So Mission Control would have ordered an abort and the LM crew have to land almost without assistance.

Probably not realistic or achievable.

 

[Bob in Pittsburgh]

Yes

Or enough people at the Cape were in on the "conspiracy" to fuel it surreptitiously.

Mission Control at Houston wouldn't have been ready with the landing protocols though. According to Gene Kranz's autobiography his team were working on them until June. While the first draft was ready a week before the Apollo 10 mission they had not finalised the Go-No Go rules for each stage the descent. Indeed, they had to amend them in July after the final simulation run when a computer error message led to an abort being called. Unnecessarily according to the Simulation team pointing out the errors made by the flight control team. ( This change in rules was vital to the actual landing as the same error message was experienced. )

So Mission Control would have ordered an abort and the LM crew have to land almost without assistance.

Probably not realistic or achievable.

For a lot of reasons, including those you cite there would have to be far too many involved in an unofficial conspiracy to have been possible. As Ben Franklin said "Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead." A more plausible, but still unlikely scenario, would have been an official contingency to try to land Apollo 10. This was implausible in my judgement because NASA was still operating in the shadow of Apollo 1. Even after the successful Apollo 10 Armstrong and Aldrin privately expressed fears that the need to abort their mission was at least 33%.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

For a lot of reasons, including those you cite there would have to be far too many involved in an unofficial conspiracy to have been possible. As Ben Franklin said "Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead." A more plausible, but still unlikely scenario, would have been an official contingency to try to land Apollo 10. This was implausible in my judgement because NASA was still operating in the shadow of Apollo 1. Even after the successful Apollo 10 Armstrong and Aldrin privately expressed fears that the need to abort their mission was at least 33%.

Precisely

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Even if fully fueled, Apollo 10s LM was overweight, and wouldn't have made it back up.
The astronauts aren't going to be court martialed, because they'll be dead in about 3 days - whenever their oxygen runs out.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Even if fully fueled, Apollo 10s LM was overweight, and wouldn't have made it back up.
The astronauts aren't going to be court martialed, because they'll be dead in about 3 days - whenever their oxygen runs out.

For the OPS scenario I think we have to find a way to lighten the ascent stage.

Can we think of a Cunning Plan as per Baldrick for our heroes to do this while on the Moon? What don't they need?

 

[e of pi]

For the OPS scenario I think we have to find a way to lighten the ascent stage.

Can we think of a Cunning Plan as per Baldrick for our heroes to do this while on the Moon? What don't they need?

It's not likely you'll be able to find enough to remove, in-flight, to make up for lacking the better part of a metric ton of propellant:

The ascent stage was loaded with the amount of fuel and oxidizer it would have had remaining if it had lifted off from the surface and reached the altitude at which the Apollo 10 ascent stage fired; this was only about half the total amount required for lift off and rendezvous with the CSM. The mission-loaded LM weighed 30,735 pounds (13,941 kg), compared to 33,278 pounds (15,095 kg) for the Apollo 11 LM which made the first landing.

Ascent stage data starts on page 113 if you want to start trying to find how to lose that weight. The entire inert mass of the vehicle is about 2075 kg, and I think you need to cut something like 30-40% of that.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

It's not likely you'll be able to find enough to remove, in-flight, to make up for lacking the better part of a metric ton of propellant:

Ascent stage data starts on page 113 if you want to start trying to find how to lose that weight. The entire inert mass of the vehicle is about 2075 kg, and I think you need to cut something like 30-40% of that.

I think the scenario assumes the ascent stage was fully loaded. By people in on the plan to land on the Moon rather than the actual NASA Mission Plan.

And I was being somewhat facetious.

 

[jsb]

If the Apollo 10 lander had been ready to realistic land (and get back) would it not have been sent to land by NASA officially anyway? The crew are unlikely to agree to try and land as they have the same information as NASA so know it's not ready to do so?

 

[Deleted member 2186]

I think the scenario assumes the ascent stage was fully loaded. By people in on the plan to land on the Moon rather than the actual NASA Mission Plan.

And I was being somewhat facetious.

That also would mean that they have the suits to go outside the lander, if not it will only be a land and go mission.