What if a city state discovers the New World?

[Grey Wolf]

I had this dream last night where Americans were known as Zarans, and intervened with armoured columns or elite engineer units in conflicts around the world where they wanted to bolster local regimes against expansionist European powers. Their name came from the city state of Zara (modern Zadar in Croatia) which apparently had not been sacked by the Venetians in 1204 in this timeline.

It got me wondering what would have happened if a city state, rather than a united monarchy, had been the one to discover the New World? It wouldn't have been Zara, of course, in our world, but maybe Genoa itself, which after all was Columbus' homeland.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Lalli]

How it could even happen? Had any Italian or German city state even reason go sail to Atlantic on 13rd century? And had them even capable ships for this?

But even if someone 13rd or 14th century city state is able reach New World, probably much wouldn't change. New World is quiet far and for city state not be simple thing hold colonies in far west.

 

[Grey Wolf]

How it could even happen? Had any Italian or German city state even reason go sail to Atlantic on 13rd century? And had them even capable ships for this?

But even if someone 13rd or 14th century city state is able reach New World, probably much wouldn't change. New World is quiet far and for city state not be simple thing hold colonies in far west.

Well Genoa had been a leading maritime nation, and Italy was the centre of the banking world, so tradition and finance could have been arranged. Its the impetus that I agree is lacking, but if there had been a strong local backer, it might have been done.

I agree with what you say about it being hard to hold colonies, which might in fact be the important PoD. In addition, unlike Spain which had great influence with the Papacy, a city state would not be able to get something like Tordesillas, so there could be a more general free-for-all

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[edvardas]

The best bet Hansa Hamburg. They had trading outposts all over north Europe. If they had heard of Vinland, they might be able to set up a trading post there. As they were more interested in trading then raiding, they could hold out longer. And if the natives have the die off, they could have a permanent colony

 

[Behemoth]

I was toying with an idea about the Republic of Ragusa having better luck than OTL. However, in my opinion, location is key if you are going to attempt colonization of the New World or even exploration for that matter. Spain, France, the Netherlands, Portugal, and England were right there on the Atlantic. Yes, there were exceptions in regard to colonization (Sweden, Duchy of Courland, etc.). Also, you would have to look at population. However, I digress...

The prospect of the Hanseatic League discovering the New World is intriguing.

 

[Byzantion]

I had this dream last night where Americans were known as Zarans, and intervened with armoured columns or elite engineer units in conflicts around the world where they wanted to bolster local regimes against expansionist European powers. Their name came from the city state of Zara (modern Zadar in Croatia) which apparently had not been sacked by the Venetians in 1204 in this timeline.

It got me wondering what would have happened if a city state, rather than a united monarchy, had been the one to discover the New World? It wouldn't have been Zara, of course, in our world, but maybe Genoa itself, which after all was Columbus' homeland.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

What if Tver or some other East Slavic City State discovers America and set up a Pelt trade economy?

 

[Kirook]

What if Tver or some other East Slavic City State discovers America and set up a Pelt trade economy?

How would Tver discover America?

 

[skozik]

How would Tver discover America?

Mayyyyybe through Alaska? Still an awful long way though.

 

[raharris1973]

Could happen. Not like Gibraltar was blockaded often. City states could probably hold smaller Caribbean colonies but not larger mainland ones.

 

[Arkenfolm]

The best bet Hansa Hamburg. They had trading outposts all over north Europe. If they had heard of Vinland, they might be able to set up a trading post there. As they were more interested in trading then raiding, they could hold out longer. And if the natives have the die off, they could have a permanent colony

It's very likely they did know of Vinland. After all, Greenlanders semi-regularly sailed there, and it was mentioned in chronicles long after it existed. And Didrik Pining, a Hansa sailor, was known to have gone very far west--some say he actually visited America decades because Columbus.

But there's nothing there you can't get cheaper from Russian or Nordic sources. Dealing with the natives is also hard. However, between cod and pelts, I think a colony in the heart of Vinland--Newfoundland--could be a solid investment, considering the huge increase in the share of the cod market you'd get. The natives of Newfoundland, the Beothuk, are small in number and apparently were easy to "deal" with considering their early extinction.

Unfortunately, you still have the issue of projecting power in the New World, and no doubt England or another power will try and take the place off their hands before long.

Other city states might as well go for random spots in the Caribbean. If Courland could do it, then so could a major Italian city state.

 

[James XI]

The greater Italian city states already were prone to setting up colonies, and might indeed have had the best idea of how to go about doing so. They'd definitely establish outposts along the Atlantic islands, possibly NW Africa. The nature of the colonial experience would differ, with less emphasis on religious conversion.

 

[Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)]

Well Genoa had been a leading maritime nation, and Italy was the centre of the banking world, so tradition and finance could have been arranged. Its the impetus that I agree is lacking, but if there had been a strong local backer, it might have been done.

I agree with what you say about it being hard to hold colonies, which might in fact be the important PoD. In addition, unlike Spain which had great influence with the Papacy, a city state would not be able to get something like Tordesillas, so there could be a more general free-for-all

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

I've always been fascinated by the story of the Vivaldi brothers, who led a Genoese crew into the Atlantic, likely to explore the African coast. Their expedition failed, and they never returned. There are some TL's in this very forum that explore what might have been if their expedition had been successful and antecipated the Age of Exploration by a couple centuries. Granted, the Europeans had yet to develop good oceanfaring methods, but if someone opened a route through Africa to the Orient, it might usher greater interest in going beyond the Pillars of Hercules, especially for the Italian merchant republics, namely Genoa and Pisa.

I personally find it interesting to have a scenario where Brazil is discovered in the 14th or 15th Century (in geographic scope, it seems to be the closest landmass near Africa and Europe), and, much like it happened with the Portuguese in the 16th Century, it might allow for a gradual colonization of the Americas, starting by the south instead of by Mesoamerica.

 

[Lucius Verus]

The problem is very simple, the Italians city states lack scale and would need a patron. Look at Courland, a small Baltic duchy that managed to setup impressive mini-empire only to lose it as soon as a strong kingdom took notice. You need something like the Genoese under the Crown of Spain, Portugal, Aragon, or Castile to provide backing. IOTL it was Flemish and Genoese merchants that provided much of capital for early Portuguese colonies, you just need them to take a greater and more formal role.

 

[Grey Wolf]

Rome was of course once a small city state and I was watching Mary Beard last night talk about this

So, how about Zara, or Genoa, whatever, adopts the idea of ANYBODY being a citizen of their state if they will go to the Americas and colonise the land?

The Italian banks could be willing to lend on this

The Pope could be willing to give his backing on this

 

[RiseofBubblez]

Rome was of course once a small city state and I was watching Mary Beard last night talk about this

So, how about Zara, or Genoa, whatever, adopts the idea of ANYBODY being a citizen of their state if they will go to the Americas and colonise the land?

I do wonder why they would do this? Okay I am not saying it is impossible or even improbable but with Rome it was a cultural thing in many ways, even many of the myths of Rome's foundations involve them joining with or assimilating other tribes or groups. Aeneas and the Latins in the Aeneid, Romulus and the Sabines etc. This idea of assimilation may well have been a Roman trait from early on so what drives Zara or Genoa or any other city state to do the same? I am not an expert on the Medieval or Renaissance periods though.

 

[Grey Wolf]

I do wonder why they would do this? Okay I am not saying it is impossible or even improbable but with Rome it was a cultural thing in many ways, even many of the myths of Rome's foundations involve them joining with or assimilating other tribes or groups. Aeneas and the Latins in the Aeneid, Romulus and the Sabines etc. This idea of assimilation may well have been a Roman trait from early on so what drives Zara or Genoa or any other city state to do the same? I am not an expert on the Medieval or Renaissance periods though.

Small Greek cities managed to set up huge colonies though holding on to any direct control of them was hard

I was just thinking aloud , in the idea of citizenship - cos to have it implies its a good, useful, beneficial thing

So it would need to be that, in the Americas, for it to work