West remains theocratic, other culture(s) leading charge for humanism?

Fenestella

Banned
Suppose the West remains theocratic for many more centuries, which cultures around the world are more likely to be leading the charge for humanism?

Basic criteria:
this is about principles, consensus, and legality in a culture - the very basis on which non-observance by powerful individuals, groups, and institutions within that culture can be called hypocrisy

against/ending cruel and unusual punishment, collective punishment
against/ending slavery
banning mutilation of human body
ending human sacrifice, immolation
ending public execution

It's fair to say any culture with humanistic aspiration should at least meet these criteria.

Which culture(s) would emerge as the champion(s) of humanism and when?
 
Very few western cultures were actually theocratic, as even during the apogee of pontifical power in the XIIth century, it had to struggle fiercly against the secular powers including on its own core (see Commune of Rome).

What you had was more religion as a central institution, but that was never able to take the political lead, being generally largely influenced by non-religious authority (if not largely, trough cesaropapist rules, such as Constantinople or Carolingia, and even these didn't managed to break all the clergy, far from it).
 
All of the things you aim for are, in EUropean history, associated with a change that was more complex than just secularisation. Incipient industrialisation, an increasingly abstract view on statehood, the rise of the bourgeoisie, a positive view on human nature, the century-long struggles for liberation from feudal rule (mostly by peasants at first) and, not to a small degree, also religious renovation movements all had their share here.

The rest of the world wasn`t uniformly theocratic. Theocracy wasn`t so dominant throughout human history. The Roman Empire, Greek polities etc. weren`t overly theocratic in antiquity, and nor were COnfucian regimes, and the same goes for many tribal societies, yet they didn`t bring forth what you desire.

Which other country in the world could have industrialised, developed a positive view on human nature, and developed a genuinely political sphere? Many countries could have, if you move the PoD back far enough in time. Basically, any civilisation has the potential to develop this way.

Who was closest? As for statehood and economic development, perhaps China.
 

Fenestella

Banned
caesaropapism=/=secularism=/=humanism
Please don't get sidetracked.
Is it fair to say any culture leading the charge for humanism should at least meet the criteria I listed?
Which non-Western culture(s) would achieve them first without Western influence and when?
 
caesaropapism=/=secularism=/=humanism
Please don't get sidetracked.
Actually, that's your own conception : many humanist concepts were issued from secularized or partially secularized contexts (or even "cesaropapists" such as the humanist use of late Roman legal codex).

Is it fair to say any culture leading the charge for humanism should at least meet the criteria I listed?
Humanism is too vague to have an entierly agreed on definition. It can arguably represent as much different toughts than Marxism and Libertarianism.

Now, if you want a non-Western culture meeting these critera, it's most doable, but I don't think it's directly related to the presence of absence of organized religion.

Which non-Western culture(s) would achieve them without Western influence and when?
I'd think India would be well placed, actually, rather than China. Mostly because of a lesser state impetus, but because of a more diverse philosophy (with religious branches possibly influencing non-violent outcomes).

Maybe some sinicized dynasty being established on a buddhist take, and "humanist" schools being develloped from that?

I'd say as well school from Arabo-Islamic world, why not a less militant Mutazilism getting develloped from Fatimid Egypt rather than Abbassid Iraq (as closer on some basic features from Ismailism), but as there's a strong western (hellenic) influence on this, I'm not sure it's what you search for.

As for when...It's anybody's guess, I'd think : a PoD ruling out Western influence might be a bit too big to have an entierly recognizable world.
If you accept Mutazilism as a valid alternative, then it's more precise : around the XII/XIIIth centuries, altough it might devellop slowly.
 

Fenestella

Banned
Actually, that's your own conception : many humanist concepts were issued from secularized or partially secularized contexts (or even "cesaropapists" such as the humanist use of late Roman legal codex).
Come on, bro, if you thought I meant caesaropapism, secularism, humanism had nothing in common whatsoever, that would be like I think you are saying they are absolutely the same.

Humanism is too vague to have an entierly agreed on definition. It can arguably represent as much different toughts than Marxism and Libertarianism.

Now, if you want a non-Western culture meeting these critera, it's most doable, but I don't think it's directly related to the presence of absence of organized religion.
terminology again. "humanism" is the term I had to use, faute de mieux, you know where I'm coming from.
We both have names of Latin first declension after all:cool:

I'd think India would be well placed, actually, rather than China. Mostly because of a lesser state impetus, but because of a more diverse philosophy (with religious branches possibly influencing non-violent outcomes).

Maybe some sinicized dynasty being established on a buddhist take, and "humanist" schools being develloped from that?

I'd say as well school from Arabo-Islamic world, why not a less militant Mutazilism getting develloped from Fatimid Egypt rather than Abbassid Iraq (as closer on some basic features from Ismailism), but as there's a strong western (hellenic) influence on this, I'm not sure it's what you search for.

As for when...It's anybody's guess, I'd think : a PoD ruling out Western influence might be a bit too big to have an entierly recognizable world.
If you accept Mutazilism as a valid alternative, then it's more precise : around the XII/XIIIth centuries, altough it might devellop slowly.
This is constructive.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
The Fall of Baghdad in 1258 ended up having traumatic implications on Islamic intellectual life. A lot of the less Conservative scholars found themselves dead, for one thing, but more than that, in the centuries following, while forward thinking scholars existed in the Islamic world, they more and more were disproportionately made up of Jews (Jewish life in Baghdad was quite vibrant up until the 1950s- at one point, the city was almost 40% Jewish), and Islamic academia became more and more conservative. A good example of this is to analyze the difference between the reactions to the First Crusade among scholars and the First Black Death among scholars at the time, two of the most traumatic experiences for the Arab World. It shows how far things had changed.

If you avert the Mongol Invasions of the Arab World, I think that this is helps put Arab culture on the path towards humanism.
 
Actually, that's your own conception : many humanist concepts were issued from secularized or partially secularized contexts (or even "cesaropapists" such as the humanist use of late Roman legal codex).


Humanism is too vague to have an entierly agreed on definition. It can arguably represent as much different toughts than Marxism and Libertarianism.

Now, if you want a non-Western culture meeting these critera, it's most doable, but I don't think it's directly related to the presence of absence of organized religion.


I'd think India would be well placed, actually, rather than China. Mostly because of a lesser state impetus, but because of a more diverse philosophy (with religious branches possibly influencing non-violent outcomes).

Maybe some sinicized dynasty being established on a buddhist take, and "humanist" schools being develloped from that?

I'd say as well school from Arabo-Islamic world, why not a less militant Mutazilism getting develloped from Fatimid Egypt rather than Abbassid Iraq (as closer on some basic features from Ismailism), but as there's a strong western (hellenic) influence on this, I'm not sure it's what you search for.

As for when...It's anybody's guess, I'd think : a PoD ruling out Western influence might be a bit too big to have an entierly recognizable world.
If you accept Mutazilism as a valid alternative, then it's more precise : around the XII/XIIIth centuries, altough it might devellop slowly.



The Mu'Tazila were very interested in causation and the Greek philosophy but on the other hand were rigid in terms of Tawheed and of the authority of the Sharia and the Khilafah. As well, the Mu'Tazila were highly noble in essence and opposed to any reform that could harm their power in Baghdad (as well Biddah in Tashree is limited as you know). So basically within Islam, though tempting, I seriously doubt any non "theocratic" state would come from the Mu'Tazila.

Also, why Fatimids? They might be tolerant in some ways but for them to adopt the methodology of the Mu'Tazila is quite out of character. The majority of the Ulema of Nizari and Ismaili Shiism at the time agreed that Allah or at least Jabril had made mistakes in the Quran and that Ali and Husayn were Muhammad's successors in prophethood. These assertions are unacceptable to the rational Mu'Tazila, thus the wholesale mixing of the two is doubtful.
 
The Fall of Baghdad in 1258 ended up having traumatic implications on Islamic intellectual life. A lot of the less Conservative scholars found themselves dead, for one thing, but more than that, in the centuries following, while forward thinking scholars existed in the Islamic world, they more and more were disproportionately made up of Jews (Jewish life in Baghdad was quite vibrant up until the 1950s- at one point, the city was almost 40% Jewish), and Islamic academia became more and more conservative. A good example of this is to analyze the difference between the reactions to the First Crusade among scholars and the First Black Death among scholars at the time, two of the most traumatic experiences for the Arab World. It shows how far things had changed.

If you avert the Mongol Invasions of the Arab World, I think that this is helps put Arab culture on the path towards humanism.


Define conservative, the Ulema has always affirmed similiar rulings, before or after the Mongol hordes. The Abbassid again, might have had a Mu'Tazila rational leaning but that does not mean that they were not rigid in terms of Sharia. Simply having Biddah does not equate to humanism or tolerance on a grand scale. As well, let me list some not Mu'Tazila Ulema that have much greater authority in the Deen of their time and ours:

1. Ibn Taymiyyah 1263 (most defining of the time in terms of the Tatar threat against Islam)
2. Al Ghazali 1058
3. Ibn Aqil 1039
4. Ali al-Barbahari 941
5. Awad Ibn Hubayra 1105
6. Abdul-Qadir Gilani 1078
7. Abdul Ghani al-Maqdisi 1146
8. Shaykh ul-Islam, Ibn Qudamah 1147 (studied by all jurists)
9. Ibn al-Jawzi 1116
10. Hammad al-Hirani 1202

The list could go on and on.....

Further the reason for the difference in rulings is clear; The Fatimids were considered Kufr and Munafiq by the Ulema within Ahl Sunnah wa l'Jama'ah by all the Ulema of the time period, thus why defend a Munafiq against a Kufr? It is better to let them fight as was the opinion of the Khilafah al-Abbasid. Further the Saljuk Turks despite leaning towards Ahl Sunnah were not following the Khilafah and had betrayed them through its control, thus they were already breaching the Sharia by its form of rule which was unjust. The reaction from the Khilafah is what is to be expected of a vassal state with little power and unwillingness to assist a sworn enemy.

Also, the argument that had Islam not suffered losses at Baghdad in 1258, we would be sailing in gold and swimming in books of beautiful Arabic literature, is not strong and doesn't hold up as well as when one with knowledge of the books of Fiqh is asked. The truth is that, while unfortunate and bloody and much literature was lost, the Ulema was still intact across the Ummah and immediately began writing to condemn the actions of the Tartar even if many of those killed were deviant. The amount of Fiqh and history written even right after the fall was extraordinary, after all Ibn Tayymiyah and Ibn al-Qayyim follow this period producing exquisite books of literature and Fiqh. The golden age of the Mamluks followed the fall, with Faras-Nama reaching its height and the concepts of Furusiyya being at its zenith. Further many innovations were made after the fall, just not enough...

Also, in order for you to say that Islam was only "conservative" after the fall of Baghdad than before, that statement would have to then say that the Ulema was more liberal at the time of the Umayyad than the Mamluk or Ottoman Khilafah, which is completely false. Even saying the Abbasid was more liberal than the Ottomans is not without disagreement.
 
The Mu'Tazila were very interested in causation and the Greek philosophy but on the other hand were rigid in terms of Tawheed and of the authority of the Sharia and the Khilafah.
Don't get me wrong : I didn't said it was entierly issued from an Arabo-Islamized Hellenic take, but that this element was determinent to its appearance. The OP asked no Western Influence, which let Mutazilism in a sort of a grey area.

Also, why Fatimids? They might be tolerant in some ways but for them to adopt the methodology of the Mu'Tazila is quite out of character.
First, as you said, because the political balance in Iraq prevented to have it fully reform or adapt itself efficiently.

Then, while Early Ismai'ilism is distinct enough, it's still somehow compatible with many takes of Mu'tazilism, while I'm not convinced that the more rationalist parts would be maintainable (altough mysticism doesn't rules out what the OP searches for)

Still, an influence on Fatimid ulamas could happen with a reasonable suspension of disbelief, if you manage to get rid of most obvious mystical parts (which wouldn't too much hard to partially butterfly).

Now, Zaidi schools are probably more close of Mu'tazilism than Isma'ilism (mostly because they cut out from main Orthodox schools before the great theological definitions, and keep most of shared features. Which without a radical distinction between Sunnism and Shi'a, was maintained trough centuries), and best of both worlds would be having a Berber dynasty pulling a Fatimid, but being more influenced by Zaidi Islam or toed to an *Isma'ilist school that would be more close to Zaidi.
Once in Egypt, permeability to a less militant Mu'tazilism (without Mu'tazili being radically opposed to the cult of Imam and Alist pretentions from what I gathered)...I could see that happening.

It would work better than just importating Mutazilism in Fatimid Egypt, which wasn't what I had exactly in mind (rather an ecounter point between both movements), but would require an earlier PoD.

Let's be clear that I'm not talking about the most plausible course of events in a TL similar to reality. But it may be the safest bet to see a lasting Mu'tazilist school at least partially or as a scholarly base for suceeding ones.
 
Don't get me wrong : I didn't said it was entierly issued from an Arabo-Islamized Hellenic take, but that this element was determinent to its appearance. The OP asked no Western Influence, which let Mutazilism in a sort of a grey area.


First, as you said, because the political balance in Iraq prevented to have it fully reform or adapt itself efficiently.

Then, while Early Ismai'ilism is distinct enough, it's still somehow compatible with many takes of Mu'tazilism, while I'm not convinced that the more rationalist parts would be maintainable (altough mysticism doesn't rules out what the OP searches for)

Still, an influence on Fatimid ulamas could happen with a reasonable suspension of disbelief, if you manage to get rid of most obvious mystical parts (which wouldn't too much hard to partially butterfly).

Now, Zaidi schools are probably more close of Mu'tazilism than Isma'ilism (mostly because they cut out from main Orthodox schools before the great theological definitions, and keep most of shared features. Which without a radical distinction between Sunnism and Shi'a, was maintained trough centuries), and best of both worlds would be having a Berber dynasty pulling a Fatimid, but being more influenced by Zaidi Islam or toed to an *Isma'ilist school that would be more close to Zaidi.
Once in Egypt, permeability to a less militant Mu'tazilism (without Mu'tazili being radically opposed to the cult of Imam and Alist pretentions from what I gathered)...I could see that happening.

It would work better than just importating Mutazilism in Fatimid Egypt, which wasn't what I had exactly in mind (rather an ecounter point between both movements), but would require an earlier PoD.

Let's be clear that I'm not talking about the most plausible course of events in a TL similar to reality. But it may be the safest bet to see a lasting Mu'tazilist school at least partially or as a scholarly base for suceeding ones.


This seems like a good response. I especially agreed with the point on the Berber polity as the force to create this entity. But again the main problem is how really emotional Shiism is and the obvious problem with Taqqiyyah and how that fits within Mu'tazili thought. But in essence I see your point and concede that this type of state would best fit this mold, but how will this state survive the test of time? Then how could it spread this new liberal Shi'i sect/Madhab to the rest of the Ummah? Most likely impossible. More than likely this state has its humanism taken advantage of and dominated by Nizari Shia or by Ahl Sunnah.
 

Czar Kaizer

Banned
Suppose the West remains theocratic for many more centuries, which cultures around the world are more likely to be leading the charge for humanism?

Basic criteria:
this is about principles, consensus, and legality in a culture - the very basis on which non-observance by powerful individuals, groups, and institutions within that culture can be called hypocrisy

against/ending cruel and unusual punishment, collective punishment
against/ending slavery
banning mutilation of human body
ending human sacrifice, immolation
ending public execution

It's fair to say any culture with humanistic aspiration should at least meet these criteria.

Which culture(s) would emerge as the champion(s) of humanism and when?
China already did this long before the west. The problem with your question is that you assume these ideas originate or are monopolised by the West,which is wrong
 

Fenestella

Banned
China already did this long before the west. The problem with your question is that you assume these ideas originate or are monopolised by the West,which is wrong

cruel and unusual punishment, collective punishment
mutilation of human body, male and female
public execution

China ended which long before the West did? When?
 
cruel and unusual punishment, collective punishment
mutilation of human body, male and female
public execution

China ended which long before the West did? When?
Water boarding, racist policing, circumcision, western countries which still execute people...
Those are categories that still go on in both cultures. The only difference is that at multiple points in both culture's histories "who has been worse" has kept changing.
 

Fenestella

Banned
Water boarding, racist policing, circumcision, western countries which still execute people...
Those are categories that still go on in both cultures. The only difference is that at multiple points in both culture's histories "who has been worse" has kept changing.
Do you expect water boarding being an issue in a society where cruel and unusual punishment is the norm?

Do you expect death penalty itself becoming controversial in a society endorsing public execution?

And please look at the underlined caveat in #1 in anticipation of responses like yours
 
But again the main problem is how really emotional Shiism is and the obvious problem with Taqqiyyah and how that fits within Mu'tazili thought.
That's a problem, indeed. That say, we're talking about an era where Shi'a and Sunna are relatively porous to each other

It cease to be the case around the Vth s.h/mid-XIIth , while the Sunnah as a social ensemble is already existing and doesn't have the same dogmatic and exclusive definition. It seems to give us some margin, if limited.

Roughly, the civilisational area of Islam allowed scholars (in particular, but not only) to move away within the former and to establish schools on long distances, as Is'mailism and Fatimids points (even if you had a Maghribi and Ifriqiyan Sh'ia at this point)

Now, what would push mu'tazili scholars to turn as du'at...
Maybe a stronger repression of the Abbasids on what looks like as religious movements, due to some traumatism (nearl-successful coup tentative? Huge rebellion close to their cores?) and a huge suspicion on what looks as reformation schools?

From there, having a mu'tzaili da'i fleeing an uncomfortable political context and giving the climate of religious turmoil in North Africa, and the unability of Abassids to really act there (even trough proxies or vassals, as Aghlabids) : you may end with some syncretism happening relatively easily, with a large Mu'tzaili influence.

Tough we know, trough North African biographs, that many scholars from Eastern Islamic world went in Ifriqiya, including mu'tazili. Ziyadat Allah I adopted mu'tazila (more in order to imitate the Caliphe than out of huge inner pressure, of course).
One shouldn't forget about Ifriqiya's role into the connection of North Africa and Eastern Islamic world.

Now you may be suspicious as such syncretism conveniently happening : but it did happened historically!

We know, trough al-Ash'ari that the Zaidi school was closer to Mu'tazilism (apparently thanks in no small part to the relations between Wasil ibn Ata' and Zaid ibn 'Ali).
Ancient texts specifically mention that Idris was both Sh'ii AND Mu'tazili, and it's likely that if he was described as part of the Sunnah, it was due to a change of definition of Sh'ia.

"Emotionalism" isn't something that was really bound to Sh'ia at this point, non in small part because Sh'ia as a dogmatic ensemble wasn't that well defined before the XIIth century. It can be more easily jury-rigged, IMO, than with more well defined schools in Bagdad.

So, rather than Isma'ilism (altough I don't rule out at all some similar syncretism), a more powerful Zaidi or a neo-Zaidi school may simply be the key, revivided trough Mu'tazili du'at.

The key problems being that this religious turmoil would make it vulnerable, that the struggle against khariji radicalism would make orthodox teaching more influents, and the limited ressources at hand in a particularily divided Maghrib.
That said, Fatimid success story points that's possible.

but how will this state survive the test of time?
Frankly, Idrisid Morroco did well until the Xth century. State organisation was rudimentary compared to what existed in Karwan, without mentioning Bagdad, but it managed to overcome periods of political division by itself.
Eventually both Fatimid and Umayyad pressure (mostly by proxy) plus khariji revolts, had to happen in the same period to end them , IOTL.

(To the point Fatimids attempted at some point to pull an Idrissid as their vassal in Maghrib against Ummayyads, as the more legit and safe choice).

Giving how Fatimids did in Africa, I'm not at all unconvinced that a neo-Zaidi school, a syncretic school, or any mix we discussed, couldn't raise as an official teaching at least in the Islamic West, and thanks to a less dogmatic ensemble than Fatimid Isma'ilism, couldn't have a more lasting influence (that IOTL Isma'ilism did, nevertheless, even if fragmentary and "hidden")
 

Czar Kaizer

Banned
Do you expect water boarding being an issue in a society where cruel and unusual punishment is the norm?

Do you expect death penalty itself becoming controversial in a society endorsing public execution?

And please look at the underlined caveat in #1 in anticipation of responses like yours
You are attempting push this racist notion that western "cultures" are morally superior to the rest of the world.
And when did western nations have humanistic tendencies? Was this during the height of the slave trade? Or during colonialism? Or what about the holocaust? What about the multiple genocides which took place in the colonial world? What about the bodily mutilation that took place in the Congo?
Surely none of this could have happened in a society which promotes humanism.
 

Fenestella

Banned
You are attempting push this racist notion that western "cultures" are morally superior to the rest of the world.

the society there is a generic term, applying to any past/present/future human society normalizing barbarity.

if that's not clear enough, look how it applies:
Do you expect water boarding being an issue in medieval Europe?
Do you expect death penalty itself becoming controversial in 19th century America?
 
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