Wank "Wales" with a POD no earlier than 800 AD
- Thread starter Eivind
- Start date
Rhodri the Great ruled most of Wales either directly or as tributaries until he was killed by invading Anglo-Saxons. Have the vikings come a little sooner and this invasion won't happen, since the main problem, Mercia, won't exist under them. If the vikings defeat Alfred then there's no chance for the later Mercian invasions either. The vikings may eventually attack Wales, but there are other more promising targets for them as well. At the same time have all but one of Rhodri's sons die so that there's no division of the kingdom after his death. Have the heir maintain close ties to the vikings for protection and finish uniting Wales. Once again have only one son survive, or else find a way to justify ignoring thousands of years of tradition and not split the kingdom. Then have the Welsh polity backstab the vikings when they're weakened by something. Have the celts retake Mercia and the fertile land in England. If you want have them split it between themselves and Wessex (probably the most believable way that would happen), or have them just conquer Wessex as well (awesome but improbable). Over time the celtic language and culture of the Welsh will seep back into the peasantry and you'll have a Wales that consists of some of the best land in Britain.
At this point I think independence and a bit more land to the east of the current border would be a pretty impressive achievement with a POD after 800.
Brunaburh
Banned
You want POD's that create anarchy in England. There was a degree of expansion of Welsh culture at times, an example being the re-Welshification of eastern Flintshire in Norman times, and the expansion of Welsh into the area round Shrewsbury in the early modern period, but nothing like what you need here.
The marcher lordships in the Norman period are a possibility. It was during this period that Welsh solidified its hold in Archenfield in Herefordshire, and Maelor Saesneg, Deeside past Chester and Wrexham were definitely included in Wales. The Domesday Book shows that Cheshire, Herefordshire, Gloucs and Shropshire all had some Welsh landowners and peasants, this trilingual situation in the Marcher lordships is perhaps your best bet. If, say, a marcher lord of Chester or Shrewsbury, marries into a powerful Welsh family (and I think you need to ATL-up a spectacularly strong Welsh family) then we could have a King of Wales and the Marches, ruling from a city on the English side of the border.
Welsh has always been spoken by some in Chester, though it is not normally transmitted generation to generation. If we can turn Chester Welsh, and that is the capital of *WATM, I can envision a Wales that includes Southern Lancashire, Cheshire and Shropshire. The Welsh culture would become dominant in multilingual areas. If it can also get hold of Herefordshire and Gloucs, the kingdom has a chance of lasting, though it would be English-speaking on its Eastern border.
The marcher lordships in the Norman period are a possibility. It was during this period that Welsh solidified its hold in Archenfield in Herefordshire, and Maelor Saesneg, Deeside past Chester and Wrexham were definitely included in Wales. The Domesday Book shows that Cheshire, Herefordshire, Gloucs and Shropshire all had some Welsh landowners and peasants, this trilingual situation in the Marcher lordships is perhaps your best bet. If, say, a marcher lord of Chester or Shrewsbury, marries into a powerful Welsh family (and I think you need to ATL-up a spectacularly strong Welsh family) then we could have a King of Wales and the Marches, ruling from a city on the English side of the border.
Welsh has always been spoken by some in Chester, though it is not normally transmitted generation to generation. If we can turn Chester Welsh, and that is the capital of *WATM, I can envision a Wales that includes Southern Lancashire, Cheshire and Shropshire. The Welsh culture would become dominant in multilingual areas. If it can also get hold of Herefordshire and Gloucs, the kingdom has a chance of lasting, though it would be English-speaking on its Eastern border.
According to Wikipedia, it is a bit uncertain at what time Rhodri the Great died, but it seems like it might have been before the battle of Ethandun (Edington), but not necessarily before the Viking conquest of Mercia (874). It would also be necessary to weaken Wessex, so that it will not be a threat to a strengthened Wales/Cymru (or whatever the united Celtic country wil be called).
Not sure how realistic it would be yet could this ATL "Wales/Cymru" hold on to / regain Somerset, Devon and Cornwall (along with parts of Dorset), if Wessex is significantly screwed?
Destruction of Mercia and Wessex is necessary(bonus points in Cornwall nabs Devon). maybe a continuing pagan Norse occupation which eventually is driven back by unified Christian Welsh/Cornish/Strathclyde kingdoms.
The west of Britain becomes like the north of Spain during the reconquista. A last outpost of Christianity that is sent massive aid by European Christian powers. When the reconquista is achieved much of what was Anglo Saxon land in the West Country/midlands now has a Brythonic ruling class.
A British reconqusita does sound like an awesome tl tbh
The west of Britain becomes like the north of Spain during the reconquista. A last outpost of Christianity that is sent massive aid by European Christian powers. When the reconquista is achieved much of what was Anglo Saxon land in the West Country/midlands now has a Brythonic ruling class.
A British reconqusita does sound like an awesome tl tbh
TruthfulPanda
Gone Fishin'
A strong Wales allies with Vikings to crush Wessex, carves up the island along a Birmingham-Portsmouth line?
Owain Glyndwr receives more enthusiastic support from the French and Scottish as they try to interfere with English politics through him. This alliance provides him and his allies from the Tripartite Indenture, i.e. Edmund Mortimer and Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland, with ships and artillery (a lack of both of these things was the crucial weakness of his rebellion IOTL) and this results in more English nobles siding with the Percys and Mortimer to challenge the claim to the throne of Henry IV as they see the rebellion as a viable rebellion with the potential to win. Henry IV dispatches his son, Henry V, to fight the growing rebellion and meets the combined armies of Glyndwr, bolstered by French and Scottish forces, Percy and Henry Hotspur and is defeated and killed in battle. With his heir dead and his army defeated Henry begins to despair as the armies of the Percys and the Mortimers match on London under the command of Edward Mortimer, whose nephew has a, albeit a little distant, claim to the English throne. With the tide clearly turning against the usurper King, his allies abandon him and he and his sons are taken prisoner as they try to flee. After their victory, the Tripartite Indenture allies split England, as their treaty had stipulated, with Glyndwr ruler over a greater Wales, Percy ruling over the north of England and Mortimer's nephew, also named Edmund, becomes King over the rest of England. This tripartite partition is cemented with royal marriages. Over the years the three states grows more powerful and eventually the two halves of England reunite, but by this time the Kingdom of Wales has become a strong united state and maintains a close relationship with the newly reunited Kingdom of England under the House of Mortimer.
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In OTL Hywel Dda united most of wales. and after his death his three sons Owain Rhodri and Edwin divided his kingdom between them wich severly weakend wales.
So lets suppose Rhodri and Edwin pre-desease Hywel so leaving Owain as the only hair and his decendants consolidate their kingdom and unite wales.
So lets suppose Rhodri and Edwin pre-desease Hywel so leaving Owain as the only hair and his decendants consolidate their kingdom and unite wales.
Simple - Wales conquers the rest of the British Isles, and uses them as a stepping stone to conquer a quarter of the world.
PoD - none required, unless Henry Tudor was secretly an Englishman.
PoD - none required, unless Henry Tudor was secretly an Englishman.
Well, strictly speaking England was being ruled by Germans when they did that, having gone through the Welsh and Scottish kings already.
Rather difficult with an 800AD POD.
Henry Tudor was king of England and of Ireland. Not of Uber Wales.
If Wales conquer Britain too quickly, it will not be able to assimilate the area, and it will not remain Celtic. A more gradual increase of territory will ensure that the kingdom will remain Celtic and will also be a more realistic scenario. In another thread, Brunaburh suggested that Wales conquers parts of Western Mercia. Then, after some time, maybe it will be able to expand more. A scenario where Southern Britain remains divided, but where Wales was the dominant power, would create many butterflies compared to OTL. Maybe also Ireland will be an important and separate kingdom.
Unsure on all the finer details here but have the predations of the Vikings less potent in the kingdom of Strathclyde and yet more devastating (if that’s possible) on the Scots and Angles. The Norse take Northumbria and hold it resulting in a border with the Britons of Strathclyde. Due to this mutual and inherited danger the Britons of the north and of the various welsh kingdoms unite under an influential military commander who consolidates the welsh speaking lands making them less susceptible to Viking raids.
British speaking polities trade with the Norse and engender good relations whilst the Anglo Saxon kingdoms find themselves surrounded by Norse or British belligerents.
British speaking polities trade with the Norse and engender good relations whilst the Anglo Saxon kingdoms find themselves surrounded by Norse or British belligerents.
For those interested, I'm working on a TL based on this POD and a rough outline of the war and the draft of the prologue can be found in my test thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/gwyns-test-thread.433841/#post-16382080
Or more devastating on Wessex, as they need to be screwed in order to stop them from unifying the Angosaxon areas. I would say that less Norse focus on Wales, Ireland and the Celtic areas in the north of Britain (like Strathclyde ) and more focus on Wessex in particular would be helpful. Wessex need not necessarily be finished off entirely, but should be weakened sufficiently so that Wales gradually can increase its strength and build up a strong and extended Celtic kingdom.