Visual art alternate history discussion

Night Gaul

You know what we don't see a lot of here? Discussion of visual arts in alternate history. Sculpture, painting, drawing, etching, architecture, fashion, ceramics, and countless other media are rarely touched upon here. We've gotten quite a bit about literature, theater, music, film and other things, but these aspects are rarely brought up.

This is my little way of filling that gap. If anyone has any thoughts about what visual arts might look like in alternate timelines, feel free to share them here.
 
RedKing

RedKing

Don't know enough to say, but definitely an interesting thread! What would art look like if Leonardo was a full on inventor?
 

historyfool

First think to come to mind is an after 1900 example, but to get the thread started:

The main architecture style associated with the Nazi era in Germany was/is a stripped down, monumentalist neoclassicism. Which to be fair was the style they favoured for representative buildings. After the war that led some architects and planners in West Germany to a radical condemnation of all kinds of historism in architecture, especially classicistic architecture. At most a reconstruction of historical buildings was defensible. The initially favoured style, especially in public projects, was a weird mix of Nazi era utilitarian architecture and Bauhaus style. Even well into the 70s, if not 80s there were prominent architects advocating stripping the faces of houses built at the turn of the century of "classicistic crap". To this day new building proposals using classicistic elements are attacked at times as totalitarian architecture.
Now I think that neoclassicism and other historisms were already in decline naturally in the early 30s, but I think without the 3rd Reich the radical break would not have happened and some of the Reformarchitektur styles that tried to marry modernism and traditional architecture would probably have remained more popular for a longer time.
 
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H.Flashman(VC)

H.Flashman(VC)

historyfool said:
First think to come to mind is an after 1900 example, but to get the thread started:

The main architecture style associated with the Nazi era in Germany was/is a stripped down, monumentalist neoclassicism. Which to be fair was the style they favoured for representative buildings. After the war that led some architects and planners in West Germany to a radical condemnation of all kinds of historism in architecture, especially classicistic architecture. At most a reconstruction of historical buildings was defensible. The initially favoured style, especially in public projects, was a weird mix of Nazi era utilitarian architecture and Bauhaus style. Even well into the 70s, if not 80s there were prominent architects advocating stripping the faces of houses built at the turn of the century of "classicistic crap". To this day new building proposals using classicistic elements are attacked at times as totalitarian architecture.
Now I think that neoclassicism and other historisms were already in decline naturally in the early 30s, but I think without the 3rd Reich the radical break would not have happened and some of the Reformarchitektur styles that tried to marry modernism and traditional architecture would probably have remained more popular for a longer time.
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There was also another reason for the style change. With so many buildings destroyed and so many people needing homes directly after 1945 in Europe, buildings with to many decorations were not that practical for large government supported building projects, that had to be made as fast as possible.
Btw. I have the impression that Historicism is now back in architecture, not so much in the classicist variant.
 
UniversalCommons

UniversalCommons

I would like to think the Minoan painting style would have spread over a much wider area. It would meet with the Sumerian gardening style to create a kind of painted courtyard with murals, fountains, and gardens. The colors would be very bright, reds, browns, blues, and the courtyards might even be tiled with a central fountain and early potted plants.
 
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Neoteros

Neoteros

UniversalCommons said:
I would like to think the Minoan painting style would have spread over a much wider area. It would meet with the Sumerian gardening style to create a kind of painted courtyard with murals, fountains, and gardens. The colors would be very bright, reds, browns, blues, and the courtyards might even be tiled with a central fountain and early potted plants.
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Now that would be cool.

A Soviet-less and WWII-less world (say, Germany is taken over by the same old school conservatives that would've eventually tried to kill Hitler rather than by actual Nazis, while Russia becomes a shaky republic dominated by democratic socialists and rural pseudo-anarchists rather than by the Bolsheviks, et cetera) could've resulted in some alternate developments, too.

What would it take to keep Africa and Asia's historical architectural heritage as present at the core of the continents' cities and towns as in Europe?
 
Denliner

Denliner

I'd love to see how we can butterfly the powdered wigs trend of the 18th century because it was truly a product of its time and could've been butterflied if the trendsetter didn't exist.
 

Silver01

Visual art i feel that with out islam or the crisis thar fell upon the byzantine empire in general in the 7th century , the Romans would have continued to realistic states for longer sure not always of marble but metals as well , the reason why it faded was lack of recourses and iconoclasm.

Also in places like italy survival means that one can potentially see a combination of surviving roman architecture with the east.
 

Silver01

Neoteros said:
What would it take to keep Africa and Asia's historical architectural heritage as present at the core of the continents' cities and towns as in Europe?
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Well in china i would have to say don't let anything like the cultural revolution happen , japan does have it's areas like that .
As for africa eh which particular area the answer would vary .
 
Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)

Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)

Welp, I wanted to post in this thread when it was first opened, but then I forgot about it completely. I think I can contribute a little in discussing alternate architecture and painting.

This post of mine is very much inspired by the TL in my signature "And all Nations Shall Gather to It", which posits a world in which the first Crusades are more successful and result in a unified and more formidable Crusader State, allied to Byzantium and which eventually annexes Damascus and Homs. As of the current chapters, it is about to attempt a military conquest of Egypt.

So, in this world, I figured the alt-Crusader State would have a dynamic, if peculiar, architectural framework, in civil, military and religious buildings, not only due to the multicultural influx of Catholic European peoples that found it - notably Francien, "Provençals" (i.e. Occitans), Italians, Normans (both from France and southern Italy) and Bavarians - but also due to the heavy influence of the cultures attached to the Levantine universe: from Syrians to Arabs. These influences will be sometimes global, such as the absorption of the Gothic and Italian Romanesque styles in religious building, courtesy of the French, Lombard and Norman immigrants, but also regional or localized, such as the Armenians in northern Syria and in the area of the Sea of Galilee, the Byzantine one in the larger urban centers (such as Caesarea) and especially Arabic, which inspires the usage of gilded ornaments with pseudo-kufic inscriptions, continuous arches and bleached stones.

Still in the topic of architecture, I'll point out a few examples I think would be useful to picture this complex aesthetic habitat for Medieval architecture. I apologize in advance for the image spam, but I believe they'll be useful right now.

Exhibit 1: the city of Homs/Emesa, ITTL, is occupied by French aristocrats, and they import the nascent Gothic style to construct the very first contemporary cathedral of the city. I figure that it could be similar to the Frankish cathedrals of Cyprus, which, albeit constructed in later date, are remarkable for the integration of the Gothic style to the local materials and tastes. As for military architecture, I suppose that a castle as formidable as the famous Krak des Chevaliers would not be out of place in Homs, considering that the city grew around a hill-top citadel.

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Exhibit 2: the region around Lake Tiberias/Sea of Galilee, sees the arrival of a number of Armenian immigrants, and they grow to form a sizable minority in Palestine as a whole. So, there is a place where religious architecture is profoundly influenced by the Armenian style, with common use of blackened stones, detailed carvings and engravings, bas-relief, and conical domes and it shows by the fact that they use khachkars (memorial stelai) as tombstones and as road-markers.

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Exhibit 3: in the region of Mediterranean Palestine, the local emporia will have a pronounced Occitan (Southern Gothic) influence, as well as Italian one, and this intermingles with the extant Romano-Byzantine influence, with just a touch of Arabic styles. With time, it becomes something similar to what if we threw Cathar architecture in the midst of Oriental aesthetics. The Mirepois, Pamiers (tower pictured below) and Rieux cathedrals are the closest to what I have in mind, considering that they seem somewhat similar to the Moorish aesthetics.

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Anyways, this are my two cents. Hope it was a good contribution to the thread. Sometime later, I'd like also to talk some about visual arts, such as frescoes and mosaics, which are very fitting with the time-frame and the place.
 

LDLF

Great topic! Here are some of my thoughts on some potential pivotal events or people, in chronological order:

  • Ancient Egypt - the Sun: If solar deities such as Horus and Sekhmet were not depicted with sun-discs on their head, then the Greeks may not have adapted this into an aureole for Helios. Then, the Romans can't adapt it into the Christian halo. A little difference, perhaps, but perhaps it affects religious developments, practices, traditions.
  • Ancient Egypt - Contraposto: The popular 'counterpoise' pose in sculpture (one foot in front of the other, to look more alive) was likely derived by the Greeks from the Egyptians. I think without the Egyptians coming up with it, it probably still develops, but probably takes a little longer. There are feed on effects here for Western Art in particular.
  • Ancient Egypt - Amarna Style: What if the peculiar art style from Akhenhaten's reign had somehow stayed and become the tradition in Egypt thereafter, rather than swept away after his reign as it was IRL? Again, there are big implications here for the development of Western art given Egypt's influence on it.
  • No Alexander the Great: In a world without the Macedonian Empire, it is likely that Hellenic influence does not spread east. This profoundly affects the scope and feel of Asian art, from Buddhist art in India to the Terracotta Army in China. There could in turn be changes in the practice and philosophy of Buddhism, depending on how much you think images and icons shape religious practice.
  • Burgundy: A history of Europe in which the Dukes of Burgundy do less well in the late Middle Ages has a big effect on Western Art because so many of the early artistic developments of the Renaissance were funded by the Burgundian court. Great artists like Van Eyck and Bosch need rich patrons. Or does the Renaissance proceed as before, just with different wealthy patrons (perhaps whoever controls Flanders at the time)?
  • Northern Italy: As with Burgundy, changing the history of Northern Italy likely changes or removes the Renaissance. The POD here could be in the reign of Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor.
  • Albrecht Durer: The first international German brand with a slick and well-designed logo. Durer also published instructions on linear perspective. Without him certain standards in the subsequent history of Western art we take for granted may not be there. He may also be the first instance of art being sold not merely on the quality of the artwork but also the charisma and personality of its creator; so the rise of the artist as some sort of higher being, rather than a mere craftsman.
  • Hans Holbein: Holbein first came over to England as a set decorator for the Field of the Cloth of Gold. Had he not stuck around to paint the court of Henry VIII I suspect we would not find the Tudors as charismatic as we seem to today - without Holbein, in the popular, non-academic imagination Henry could seem as distant a personality as most Medieval monarchs. This doesn't really affect the Tudors at the time; it affects how historians and the public view them today. However, one could make an argument that his painting of Anne of Cleves was what persuaded Henry to decide (briefly) to marry her; I don't know enough about this to say.
  • Hieronymus Bosch and Philip II: For me this is one of the most intriguing. Philip II of Spain collected Bosch's paintings and kept them in his private quarters, including his bedroom in El Escorial. He would have viewed the paintings in his most private, intimate and contemplative moments. This is completely speculative but I wonder if the paintings had any effect on him - how he viewed religion, sin, people, politics. We know from the documents during Philip's reign how many decisions across his global empire were directly made by him, often presumably from these very same private rooms. If Bosch's paintings did affect Philip in any way, what would happen if these paintings had never existed, or had been destroyed by iconoclasts before the Spanish found them?
  • Council of Trent: To a certain extent, this brought about, or at least codified, what we know today as the Baroque.
  • Andrea Pozzo: Quite apart from his fresco paintings, Pozzo wrote a manual on architectural perspective that has been consulted by theatrical producers ever since, up to and including Cecil B. DeMille. A world without Pozzo could result in different styles of composition in stage design and cinema that place less emphasis on dramatic scale, or which do so less successfully.
  • Gustave Dore: Dore was musically gifted, so could potentially have decided on a career other than art. A 19th Century without his art means a 20th (and 21st) Century with very different cultural output. He was the most published illustrator of his day (perhaps of all time), and his style has been referred to ever since in comics (which he effectively founded as a modern medium), theatre, and particularly films (every Disney animated film, every fantasy and science fiction film, and a great many horror films).
Finally, there are a few individual artworks, the absence or disappearance of which could I think serve as potential PODs. Click on the titles for links to the artworks:


Finally, thinking of Architecture: one point of interest here is how the design and layout of a building affects the procedures and power relationships between servants of the state and/or ruler, in turn dictating the style of governance. Versailles seems to me to be an obvious example of this.
 
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