United states breakup: map suggestions

[Analytical Engine]

The general idea was that the usa does get a constitution, but it is significantly neutered compared to the constitution of OTL. The usa would disintegrate around the turn of the century

Ok, assuming the Jay Treaty is never signed - which might explain why Britain still occupies the Old Northwest - you still need to take into account:

A) the northern border of Maine was disputed for much of the first half of the 19th century

As to how the border is resolved ITTL - well, on the one hand, New England is nowhere nearly as powerful as the US was at the time, but on the other, the relationship between Britain and New England would be better.

I'm still leaning onto the side of "the border is resolved more in Britain's favour than in New England's", because of bullyboy tactics.

B) the matter of the Erie Triangle was resolved by the Federal Government buying the land from New York, and then selling it to Pennsylvania. Without a strong Federal Government to buy all that western land, IMO, New York is holding onto that land. As a result, the Continental Congress - or at least Pennsylvania, at first - would want to expand westwards to gain access to Lake Erie.

C) The border between Pennsylvania and Virginia might not follow the exact OTL line ITTL. Specifically, the Northern Panhandle of OTL West Virginia may or may not be part of Pennsylvania ITTL, depending on where Virginia and the Continental Congress agree to set their border.

EDIT: I'm ok with Vermont staying independent for a while, but, eventually, it's going to have to decide whether it's a good idea to join New England, or even to become a British protectorate, to defend against potential New Yorker designs.

 

[Ficboy]

So I'm going to do a qbam map series on a usa that disintegrates in its early history, and this is a rough draft of what I have for 1812(ish). I'm personally debating whether the usa should exist here at all as a rump (labeled confederation congress) Any suggestions on how to make this more plausible would be greatly appreciated.

I suggest merging North Carolina and South Carolina given the similarities as much as there are differences. You might even see North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia unite into a confederation. Virginia is going to stay independent because its identity is distinct from the other Southern states despite the similarities.

 

[Dan1988]

As to how the border is resolved ITTL - well, on the one hand, New England is nowhere nearly as powerful as the US was at the time, but on the other, the relationship between Britain and New England would be better.

I'm still leaning onto the side of "the border is resolved more in Britain's favour than in New England's", because of bullyboy tactics.

OTOH, it's possible a similar (though not exact) compromise boundary for Maine could work for both New England and Britain. The main reason why? A crisis in this area (well, crisis in Britain's and New England's eyes) related to the Republic of Madawaska, which existed precisely because of the lack of clear boundaries in that area.

 

[Crazymachines]

Ok, assuming the Jay Treaty is never signed - which might explain why Britain still occupies the Old Northwest - you still need to take into account:

A) the northern border of Maine was disputed for much of the first half of the 19th century

As to how the border is resolved ITTL - well, on the one hand, New England is nowhere nearly as powerful as the US was at the time, but on the other, the relationship between Britain and New England would be better.

I'm still leaning onto the side of "the border is resolved more in Britain's favour than in New England's", because of bullyboy tactics.

B) the matter of the Erie Triangle was resolved by the Federal Government buying the land from New York, and then selling it to Pennsylvania. Without a strong Federal Government to buy all that western land, IMO, New York is holding onto that land. As a result, the Continental Congress - or at least Pennsylvania, at first - would want to expand westwards to gain access to Lake Erie.

C) The border between Pennsylvania and Virginia might not follow the exact OTL line ITTL. Specifically, the Northern Panhandle of OTL West Virginia may or may not be part of Pennsylvania ITTL, depending on where Virginia and the Continental Congress agree to set their border.

EDIT: I'm ok with Vermont staying independent for a while, but, eventually, it's going to have to decide whether it's a good idea to join New England, or even to become a British protectorate, to defend against potential New Yorker designs.

With regard to both the Erie triangle and northern Maine, I am aware that these areas are inaccurate

Mapchart has limitations yo

I rather am trying to figure out if the rump usa or united new england are realistic in such a scenario

And yes, South Carolina and vermont would probably join neighboring states eventually, the map reflects the immediate aftermath of the secessions

 

[Ficboy]

With regard to both the Erie triangle and northern Maine, I am aware that these areas are inaccurate

Mapchart has limitations yo

In my opinion Maryland would be independent given its distinct identity and culture related to Catholicism and slavery making it incompatible with Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania would be its own country with Delaware as a part of it.

 

[Crazymachines]

In my opinion Maryland would be independent given its distinct identity and culture related to Catholicism and slavery making it incompatible with Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania would be its own country with Delaware as a part of it.

So no rump us at all?

 

[Ficboy]

So no rump us at all?

I would say that Pennsylvania should be the Continental Congress the last remaining remnant of the old United States in this universe.

 

[Analytical Engine]

So no rump us at all?

I'm personally ok with a "we are totally the continuation of the United States. Don't believe the haters who say otherwise!" state, comprising Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware and New Jersey, with a capital at Pennsylvania (possibly spun off as a separate capital district).

 

[Crazymachines]

I'm personally ok with a "we are totally the continuation of the United States. Don't believe the haters who say otherwise!" state, comprising Pennsylvania, Maryland, Delaware and New Jersey, with a capital at Pennsylvania (possibly spun off as a separate capital district).

"Oh we totally still have legal rights to the ohio territory, we swear!"

 

[Ficboy]

"Oh we totally still have legal rights to the ohio territory, we swear!"

Even then Maryland is probably going to leave due to the cultural differences. New Jersey might swing towards New York. Delaware is likely to remain with Pennsylvania though given the similarities. Arguably the Continental Congress is only going to have just Pennsylvania at this point.

 

[Crazymachines]

Even then Maryland is probably going to leave due to the cultural differences. New Jersey might swing towards New York. Delaware is likely to remain with Pennsylvania though given the similarities. Arguably the Continental Congress is only going to have just Pennsylvania at this point.

Why even bother with pretending at that point, nobody is actually going to believe that a single state is the United States

 

[Ficboy]

Why even bother with pretending at that point, nobody is actually going to believe that a single state is the United States

Well at least in the sense of "Oh we are totally the continuation of the United States. We are based in the birthplace of the Revolution and we fly the old banner (i.e. Star Spangled Banner). Those other states that have seceded and formed new nations they're traitors and must be brought back into the Union. Believe us, there is still a United States!"

 

[Analytical Engine]

In my opinion Maryland would be independent given its distinct identity and culture related to Catholicism and slavery making it incompatible with Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania would be its own country with Delaware as a part of it.

You mean the Maryland that's only 15% Catholic by the present day? The Maryland that had been officially persecuting Catholics for decades prior to independence? That Maryland?

Plus, Pennsylvania still had slaves living within its borders. The act of 1780 allowed for gradual abolition. Slavery wasn't completely ended in Pennsylvania until 1847 (although, admittedly by this point, there weren't many slaves left).

 

[Ficboy]

You mean the Maryland that's only 15% Catholic by the present day? The Maryland that had been officially persecuting Catholics for decades prior to independence? That Maryland?

Plus, Pennsylvania still had slaves living within its borders. The act of 1780 allowed for gradual abolition. Slavery wasn't completely ended in Pennsylvania until 1847 (although, admittedly by this point, there weren't many slaves left).

Pennsylvania was quickly becoming antislavery anyway by contrast slavery in Maryland was well-established and ingrained into society.

 

[Crazymachines]

So apparently the British wanted to establish an Indian buffer state in the northwest territories, does this shoot virginian/Pennsylvanian expansion in the foot?

 

[Dan1988]

I rather am trying to figure out if the rump usa or united new england are realistic in such a scenario

Oh, United New England is definitely realistic, that's for sure. United New England with a separate Vermont is also definitely realistic, as is Vermont eventually absorbed into New England (thus avoiding expanding Vermont). Heck, New England could also even claim itself to be the real US, as much as the Continental Congress - just not the right type.

As for Maryland with the rump US - that's actually possible. Whatever Catholic identity existed in Maryland had been extinguished a while ago, so it and Delaware, at the very least (maybe even some of the area which we now call the Southern Tier - though I know going that detailed may wreck some programs), along with NJ could work as a base for a rump US. Where the devil is in the details is how it got to that point.

So apparently the British wanted to establish an Indian buffer state in the northwest territories, does this shoot virginian/Pennsylvanian expansion in the foot?

Surprisingly, no - there will be a chance for the UK and the rump US to fight over that territory. The US may eventually not reclaim all of the Northwest, but over time it could probably reclaim some of it. At the very least, one of them could reclaim Ohio as a first step.

 

[Crazymachines]

Oh, United New England is definitely realistic, that's for sure. United New England with a separate Vermont is also definitely realistic, as is Vermont eventually absorbed into New England (thus avoiding expanding Vermont). Heck, New England could also even claim itself to be the real US, as much as the Continental Congress - just not the right type.

As for Maryland with the rump US - that's actually possible. Whatever Catholic identity existed in Maryland had been extinguished a while ago, so it and Delaware, at the very least (maybe even some of the area which we now call the Southern Tier - though I know going that detailed may wreck some programs), along with NJ could work as a base for a rump US. Where the devil is in the details is how it got to that point.



Surprisingly, no - there will be a chance for the UK and the rump US to fight over that territory. The US may eventually not reclaim all of the Northwest, but over time it could probably reclaim some of it. At the very least, one of them could reclaim Ohio as a first step.

So in the qbam what would britain, Virginia, and the rump usa de facto control realistically in the northwest territories

 

[Crazymachines]

Q-bam progress so far

 

[Thomas1195]

I can see New England trying to claim Upstate New York.

 

[Ficboy]

View attachment 582429
Q-bam progress so far

Given the differences between Pennsylvania, New Jersey and especially Maryland they're going to break off from the Continental Congress to pursue their own path. Maryland as an independent nation and New Jersey linking up with New York. It will happen gradually.