United states breakup: map suggestions

I'm trying to settle on a realistic POD, any suggestions? Keeping the articles of confederation to me is unlikely because everyone knew they were broken and needed to be fixed, a much more flawed constitution on the other hand...

Or maybe Aaron Burr pees in the proverbial pool, I dunno
Burr tries to be king of the heap, a number one. Winds up being the last president of the United States. The Brits later make him King of Louisiana.
 
QUOTE="TimTurner, post: 21027932, member: 86590"]
Burr tries to be king of the heap, a number one. Winds up being the last president of the United States. The Brits later make him King of Louisiana.
[/QUOTE]
The Brits would make Aaron Burr the King of Blennerhassett's Island... it could be his Elba
x'D
 
I think what's important with determining the borders of balkanized US scenarios is the context. Usually people go with a scenario along the lines of the Articles of Confederation staying in place and ultimately leading to the dissolution of the US, but what happens next is important. For starters, what was the event that caused the states to disregard the articles? Was it a dispute over the Northwest Territory? Did two states go to war against each other? Did New England band together and secede? And speaking of which, you'd need to explain why certain states would federate with each other. There's certainly plausible explanations for why states would do that, and if you offer one you should be good, but assuming the event that causes the US to balkanize isn't an earlier Hartford Convention or something, in all likelihood no federations of states will exist upon the immediate dissolution of the Union. I've seen a number of TLs where a balkanized US just immediately has the "Southron Commonwealth" or the "Confederacy of New England States" form without any explanation, which is something that I certainly think detracts from balkanization scenarios.
 
I'll be honest - Rupertia makes me cringe, as does anachronistic adding of "and Labrador" to Newfoundland, whereas IOTL that was just a very recent change (recent as around the beginning of this century).
Fair enough. Feel free to make revisions.
 
I think what's important with determining the borders of balkanized US scenarios is the context. Usually people go with a scenario along the lines of the Articles of Confederation staying in place and ultimately leading to the dissolution of the US, but what happens next is important. For starters, what was the event that caused the states to disregard the articles? Was it a dispute over the Northwest Territory? Did two states go to war against each other? Did New England band together and secede? And speaking of which, you'd need to explain why certain states would federate with each other. There's certainly plausible explanations for why states would do that, and if you offer one you should be good, but assuming the event that causes the US to balkanize isn't an earlier Hartford Convention or something, in all likelihood no federations of states will exist upon the immediate dissolution of the Union. I've seen a number of TLs where a balkanized US just immediately has the "Southron Commonwealth" or the "Confederacy of New England States" form without any explanation, which is something that I certainly think detracts from balkanization scenarios.
my thought is Hamilton and the federalists act even more like dicks during the constitutional convention , causing the alienation of the anti federalist states, leading to the document only being ratified by eight states. inter-party and inter-state fighting after the convention prevents a second one taking place, and eventually to federalist new england walking out of the union, along with New York and the south
 
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my thought is Hamilton and the federalists act event more like dicks during the constitutional convention , causing the alienation of the anti federalist states, leading to the document only being ratified by eight states. inter-party and inter-state fighting after the convention prevents a second one taking place, and eventually to federalist new england walking out of the union, along with New York and the south
That's an interesting start, and could be a starting point for independent New York, independent North Carolina, and initially an independent Rhode Island separate from New England before it gets absorbed into the latter (if only to better resolve the border disputes to its east, which would be all of what are now Pawtucket east of the Blackstone River - where I'm typing this from right now - and East Providence, as well as some quibbles elsewhere in Barrington and Tiverton). Preventing the last three states which IOTL ratified the Constitution from actually doing that ITTL would definitely help. Rhode Island would be easy to explain as beating to its own drum and being downright weird even by 18th century American standards, but New York would have to be explained somehow, and it could easily be tied in with Hamilton's ego trip.
 
I think what's important with determining the borders of balkanized US scenarios is the context. Usually people go with a scenario along the lines of the Articles of Confederation staying in place and ultimately leading to the dissolution of the US, but what happens next is important. For starters, what was the event that caused the states to disregard the articles? Was it a dispute over the Northwest Territory? Did two states go to war against each other? Did New England band together and secede? And speaking of which, you'd need to explain why certain states would federate with each other. There's certainly plausible explanations for why states would do that, and if you offer one you should be good, but assuming the event that causes the US to balkanize isn't an earlier Hartford Convention or something, in all likelihood no federations of states will exist upon the immediate dissolution of the Union. I've seen a number of TLs where a balkanized US just immediately has the "Southron Commonwealth" or the "Confederacy of New England States" form without any explanation, which is something that I certainly think detracts from balkanization scenarios.
Maybe the states don’t disregard the Articles, maybe the Continental Congress becomes vestigial like the HRE/German Confederation and the association between PA, NJ, DE and MD is more Zollverein than rump Congress.
 
If Rhode island didn't immediately join the new england federalists (and let's face it, it probably wouldn't) how long until it voluntarily joins/ new england coerces them
 
If Rhode island didn't immediately join the new england federalists (and let's face it, it probably wouldn't) how long until it voluntarily joins/ new england coerces them
Well, Rhode Island still had the Federalist Party as a major political force - the trouble here was the local Anti-Federalists, known as the Country Party, which had more support among the people and the political classes. I'd say about sometime in the 1790s into the early 1800's would be when Rhode Island joins the rest of New England - if New England's Constitution met their demands, which it probably could. Alternatively, Rhode Island could hold out if it joined New England alongside Vermont, whenever the Vermont Republic decides to do so.
 
Maybe the states don’t disregard the Articles, maybe the Continental Congress becomes vestigial like the HRE/German Confederation and the association between PA, NJ, DE and MD is more Zollverein than rump Congress.
It depends on why exactly states would be incentivized to reduce the powers of the Continental Congress. Historically, a primary benefit for keeping the US around for the states was the fact that it provided mutual defense, so I can see it go the way of the German Confederation and have its sole responsibility more or less be the provision of a common armed forces for otherwise sovereign states. Heck, I could see the US devolve into an 18th Century NATO-esque alliance where the member states commit to their mutual defense but otherwise don’t maintain much in the way of a unified military. If that happens, I think that an economic alliance between some states isn’t just plausible, but likely, due to the economic connections that already existed between said states.
 
my thought is Hamilton and the federalists act even more like dicks during the constitutional convention , causing the alienation of the anti federalist states, leading to the document only being ratified by eight states. inter-party and inter-state fighting after the convention prevents a second one taking place, and eventually to federalist new england walking out of the union, along with New York and the south
Ooh, I like that concept. I have to wonder if the secession of states from the Union due to disagreements at the Constitutional Convention would trigger a civil war, but given that the Continental Army wasn’t that strong I can see New England backing down from a fight it knows it can’t win. If this is what you go with, I think something important to take into account is what happens to the Northwest Territory. I believe that the federal government technically maintained this territory during the confederation period so it would therefore go to NE, but land claims by other states would be a source of contention and possibly war in the near future.
 
Ooh, I like that concept. I have to wonder if the secession of states from the Union due to disagreements at the Constitutional Convention would trigger a civil war, but given that the Continental Army wasn’t that strong I can see New England backing down from a fight it knows it can’t win. If this is what you go with, I think something important to take into account is what happens to the Northwest Territory. I believe that the federal government technically maintained this territory during the confederation period so it would therefore go to NE, but land claims by other states would be a source of contention and possibly war in the near future.
Hmm...would both New England and the Confederation Congress claim to be the "legitimate" continuation of the United States? In which case, both would continue to claim the Northwest for some time.
 
Hmm...would both New England and the Confederation Congress claim to be the "legitimate" continuation of the United States? In which case, both would continue to claim the Northwest for some time.
Assuming I read it correctly, in this scenario New England is what remains of the Continental Congress, just after having ratified a more centralized constitution.
 
Basically the new englanders got sick of the chaos in the confederation congress after the failed convention and the lack of, you know, a functioning government, and were like "to hell with this shit, we'll do it ourselves"
 
Ah, I thought the New England states were supposed to be the sole remnant of the US after they were the only states to ratify the constitution. My bad! In that case, the Northwest Territory goes to the remaining states of the US, although the same issues regarding land disputes with other states, such as New York and Virginia, still apply in this scenario.
 
on the topic of the erie triangle, it was federal land at the time of the constitutional convention, should it go to the rump usa or become part of ny?
 
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