Should I retcon the language thing?
As for Casimir getting elected, I could pull some reason out of my ass, but I'm too tired.
Union of The Three Crowns: The History of The Nordic Empire
- Thread starter Gabingston
- Start date
As for Casimir getting elected, I could pull some reason out of my ass, but I'm too tired.
Nah it doesn’t matter that much, it’d make sense for him to learn Danish somehow.
That Casimir is good deal older than Sigismund III, so Sigismund II doesn't exactly need to give away his rights to Lithuania (as he did otl), he can name Casimir his heir there and that way secure his election in Poland.
Here’s a post on what I was thinking on a potential but still unconfirmed English Cape Colony:
1: I was thinking that the Puritans would be a big chunk of the colonists in South Africa, since they can't settle in New England and would still want land of their own where they could found their own ideal society. About 20,000 Puritans settled in New England IOTL, I imagine it'd be more like 5-10,000 going to South Africa, due to how much farther away it is. Even if it is just 5,000 Puritans settling in South Africa, that alone is more than the entire amount of settlers the Dutch Cape Colony of OTL got, and the Puritans wouldn't be the only ones settling in this English Cape Colony. As for other destinations for the Puritans, I've thought of having some of them settle in the New Netherland colony, since there were a sizable amount of Puritans in the Netherlands and the New Netherland colony is much closer than The Cape. The Puritans could also contribute to the New Netherlander ethnogenesis that one of the readers here was suggesting. Tens of thousands of Puritans settled in the Caribbean IOTL (I'm assuming most of them died of tropical diseases), and some more settled in Ireland and the American South (about 5,000 in the latter case). I'm guessing more would wind up in the American South in this world, since, once again, New England isn't there and it's closer than South Africa. Georgia and The Carolinas weren't settled at this time, which means that the Puritans could settle in the Deep South, which would have massive ramifications on the development of the region, but this is running a bit long, so I'll stop here.
2: The Scots-Irish were the main frontiersmen in the English/British colonies of this era, so they'd settle in the Upland South as they did IOTL. In South Africa, they'd push the frontier from the Cape out towards the north and east, adopting a pastoralist lifestyle and filling the role of the Trekboers of OTL's South Africa. They might end up mixing with the Khoisan peoples of the region, forming groups similar to the Griquas and Basters. On the other hand, the Scots-Irish would get themselves into conflicts with the natives, whether they be Khoisan or eventually Bantu. Being a people with a strong martial tradition and having a technological advantage, I’d expect the Scots-Irish to handily defeat the Khoisan in the Karoo and slowly but surely push back the various Bantu peoples from the Highveld, which would be made easier if something like the Mfecane still occurs.
3: The Cape would be a very convenient location for an English penal colony. IOTL around 50,000 British indentured servants were shipped off to the Thirteen Colonies, mostly to the Chesapeake region, and while that’d still be the case here, the English might send some of them to the Cape Colony. They’d work on farms and plantations around the Cape region for a few years before either being set free to chart their own course in The Cape or returning to England. I’m assuming the vast majority of indentured servants and convicts who were sent to The Cape would stay after their sentences were up. I could see around 5-10,000 convicts and indentured servants being sent to The Cape ITTL, most of whom would stick around permanently. Some would continue to work on farms and plantations as paid fieldhands (many of them likely owned by TTL’s equivalent to the East India Company), others would acquire their own land in the Cape region and finally some would join the trek into the interior, following the path blazed by the Scots-Irish I talked about earlier.
4: Finally, I’m gonna bring up some non-British immigrants to The Cape. I think the most likely non-British source of immigration would be French Huguenots. There were a large number of French Huguenots that settled in Britain after the Edict of Nantes was revoked in 1685, about 40-50,000 IIRC. Many of them later emigrated to the Thirteen Colonies, particularly South Carolina. There were also a small number of Huguenots that settled in the Dutch Cape Colony IOTL, founding the Cape Colony’s grape-growing tradition and eventually assimilating into the Afrikaner population. Seeing how conducive The Cape’s climate is to growing grapes, the Cape Colony’s government could invite some Huguenot viticulturalists to set up vineyards and wineries in the region, with the wine and grapes being used for both local consumption and as nourishment for East India Company sailors, for whom it’d be essential to not catch scurvy. I could also see a few Germans settling in the English Cape, although not nearly as many as in North America. I also expect a smattering of non-European settlers in The Cape, whether they be the South or Southeast Asian wives of English sailors or slaves taken from other parts of Africa (although I don’t expect the English Cape Colony to become a slave colony due to the temperate climate, it’d probably be more along the lines of OTL’s American Mid-Atlantic).
All in all, I see the English Cape Colony getting a number of settlers in the mid five digits (50,000 give or take a bit), far surpassing that of OTL’s Dutch Cape Colony, which had about 3,000 permanent European settlers. This Cape Colony will probably eventually grow into an Anglo state spanning all of Southern Africa at least as far as the Zambezi, maybe even into the East African Highlands (with a fair deal of atrocities along the way, but that’s to be expected for the time period). Having all the different groups that settled in colonial America like the Puritans, Scots-Irish, Cavaliers and Quakers all settling in the same area rather than in separate regions would be very interesting, seeing as these groups all had vastly different values and lifestyles IOTL. I must reiterate that an English Cape Colony is by no means confirmed, as I could still have the Dutch, French or Portuguese colonize it. I might do more of these non-threadmarked essays for the other colonial powers in the future. Still, an English South Africa is the most likely, and thus that’s what I’m working with right now. I’ll get working on another update soon (probably about TTL’s Dutch Revolt), and I’ll have more of these types of thought-spillings as well (as well as another update to EC/FC that I want to have out by the end of the month), but until then, have a great day, I’ll see you soon.
1: I was thinking that the Puritans would be a big chunk of the colonists in South Africa, since they can't settle in New England and would still want land of their own where they could found their own ideal society. About 20,000 Puritans settled in New England IOTL, I imagine it'd be more like 5-10,000 going to South Africa, due to how much farther away it is. Even if it is just 5,000 Puritans settling in South Africa, that alone is more than the entire amount of settlers the Dutch Cape Colony of OTL got, and the Puritans wouldn't be the only ones settling in this English Cape Colony. As for other destinations for the Puritans, I've thought of having some of them settle in the New Netherland colony, since there were a sizable amount of Puritans in the Netherlands and the New Netherland colony is much closer than The Cape. The Puritans could also contribute to the New Netherlander ethnogenesis that one of the readers here was suggesting. Tens of thousands of Puritans settled in the Caribbean IOTL (I'm assuming most of them died of tropical diseases), and some more settled in Ireland and the American South (about 5,000 in the latter case). I'm guessing more would wind up in the American South in this world, since, once again, New England isn't there and it's closer than South Africa. Georgia and The Carolinas weren't settled at this time, which means that the Puritans could settle in the Deep South, which would have massive ramifications on the development of the region, but this is running a bit long, so I'll stop here.
2: The Scots-Irish were the main frontiersmen in the English/British colonies of this era, so they'd settle in the Upland South as they did IOTL. In South Africa, they'd push the frontier from the Cape out towards the north and east, adopting a pastoralist lifestyle and filling the role of the Trekboers of OTL's South Africa. They might end up mixing with the Khoisan peoples of the region, forming groups similar to the Griquas and Basters. On the other hand, the Scots-Irish would get themselves into conflicts with the natives, whether they be Khoisan or eventually Bantu. Being a people with a strong martial tradition and having a technological advantage, I’d expect the Scots-Irish to handily defeat the Khoisan in the Karoo and slowly but surely push back the various Bantu peoples from the Highveld, which would be made easier if something like the Mfecane still occurs.
3: The Cape would be a very convenient location for an English penal colony. IOTL around 50,000 British indentured servants were shipped off to the Thirteen Colonies, mostly to the Chesapeake region, and while that’d still be the case here, the English might send some of them to the Cape Colony. They’d work on farms and plantations around the Cape region for a few years before either being set free to chart their own course in The Cape or returning to England. I’m assuming the vast majority of indentured servants and convicts who were sent to The Cape would stay after their sentences were up. I could see around 5-10,000 convicts and indentured servants being sent to The Cape ITTL, most of whom would stick around permanently. Some would continue to work on farms and plantations as paid fieldhands (many of them likely owned by TTL’s equivalent to the East India Company), others would acquire their own land in the Cape region and finally some would join the trek into the interior, following the path blazed by the Scots-Irish I talked about earlier.
4: Finally, I’m gonna bring up some non-British immigrants to The Cape. I think the most likely non-British source of immigration would be French Huguenots. There were a large number of French Huguenots that settled in Britain after the Edict of Nantes was revoked in 1685, about 40-50,000 IIRC. Many of them later emigrated to the Thirteen Colonies, particularly South Carolina. There were also a small number of Huguenots that settled in the Dutch Cape Colony IOTL, founding the Cape Colony’s grape-growing tradition and eventually assimilating into the Afrikaner population. Seeing how conducive The Cape’s climate is to growing grapes, the Cape Colony’s government could invite some Huguenot viticulturalists to set up vineyards and wineries in the region, with the wine and grapes being used for both local consumption and as nourishment for East India Company sailors, for whom it’d be essential to not catch scurvy. I could also see a few Germans settling in the English Cape, although not nearly as many as in North America. I also expect a smattering of non-European settlers in The Cape, whether they be the South or Southeast Asian wives of English sailors or slaves taken from other parts of Africa (although I don’t expect the English Cape Colony to become a slave colony due to the temperate climate, it’d probably be more along the lines of OTL’s American Mid-Atlantic).
All in all, I see the English Cape Colony getting a number of settlers in the mid five digits (50,000 give or take a bit), far surpassing that of OTL’s Dutch Cape Colony, which had about 3,000 permanent European settlers. This Cape Colony will probably eventually grow into an Anglo state spanning all of Southern Africa at least as far as the Zambezi, maybe even into the East African Highlands (with a fair deal of atrocities along the way, but that’s to be expected for the time period). Having all the different groups that settled in colonial America like the Puritans, Scots-Irish, Cavaliers and Quakers all settling in the same area rather than in separate regions would be very interesting, seeing as these groups all had vastly different values and lifestyles IOTL. I must reiterate that an English Cape Colony is by no means confirmed, as I could still have the Dutch, French or Portuguese colonize it. I might do more of these non-threadmarked essays for the other colonial powers in the future. Still, an English South Africa is the most likely, and thus that’s what I’m working with right now. I’ll get working on another update soon (probably about TTL’s Dutch Revolt), and I’ll have more of these types of thought-spillings as well (as well as another update to EC/FC that I want to have out by the end of the month), but until then, have a great day, I’ll see you soon.
An English Cape sounds very interesting! It would be fascinating to see a white majority country in South Africa compared to OTL’s minority rule and later apartheid.
It’s possible France gets Australia ITTL maybe but that’s for another time.
I am still seriously questioning the long term survival of New Netherlands, they’re right in the middle of English colonies and are strategically located.
A fully British South Africa would be amazing to see. They have the population and means to build and protect their colonial empire. Could we possibly see parts of South America populated by the British? Maybe OTL Argentina and Chile are taken by the British?
Northern Chile and Argentina maybe not, the Spanish already conquered the Inca. However Britain did have historical interest in Patagonia and attempted to colonise it and a fully established settler colony in South Africa on the level of their NA colonies will make that a reality.
@Gabingston , on New Netherlands, I retract my earlier words. I got confused lol. I forgot this is the Kalmar timeline. Yes I agree New Netherlands has more potential to survive ITTL, likely being maintained as a small buffer between English and Scandinavian colonies because neither wants the other to have the OTL New York area.
I imagine the Great Lakes would be an area of great competition between New Scandinavia, New Netherlands, and ITTL, what would be New England, all the colonies south of New Jersey down to Georgia.
Makes me wonder what France will go for to colonise instead. IMO I’m thinking greater focus on the Caribbean, Guiana, and French northern Brazil. I really want to see France taking northern Brazil and Guyana and competing with Portugal in southern Brazil, Spain in Venezuela. Britain in Patagonia and competing against Spain in Argentina and the Andes would be dope too.
Damn the more diverse Americas sound really interesting.
Hyped for English Cape colony too! Hoping we get smth like French Australia and NZ as well perhaps, really vary up the timeline with all those near misses from OTL.
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There will still be a sizable Black population in South Africa, probably around a third to half the population. There aren't really a lot of sources on how large the pre-colonization population of South Africa was, the only source I could find only goes back to 1800, when the population was apparently around 1.4 million, about 80,000 of whom would've resided in the Dutch Cape Colony. I'm assuming the population of the English Cape ITTL will be much larger by 1800, possibly as high as 500,000. I know for sure that OTL's pre-1994 Cape Province plus Namibia and Botswana will be White majority, though, possibly Free State as well. A lot of it depends on if there's some equivalent to Shaka Zulu ITTL and how brutal the Anglo settlers are. I'm guessing that TTL's South Africa will be similar to the one Whatifalthist laid out in his Alternate African Empires video, minus the earlier Dutch presence.
As for a French Australia, it's a bit too far out to really forecast. I could see a French colony in Australia, but it's no guarantee.
I've thought about the Southern Cone a little bit. The Spanish didn't really pay attention to it, at least compared to the cash cows that were Mexico and The Andes, so it wouldn't be too difficult for the English or French to poach it from the Spanish. One idea I have is a Scottish Patagonia if it remains independent from England, although that probably wouldn't happen until the 18th Century.
Yes, the New Netherlands is between the Kalmar colonies to the north and the English colonies to the south, and thus will survive ITTL. I imagine the Dutch centering their colony around the Hudson and Delaware river valleys, going as far south as Delaware and as far north as Albany, NY. The border between the Dutch and English colonies will lie somewhere in Maryland, whether it be the Potomac or Susquehannock/40th Parallel, and maybe a small border in the Delmarva Peninsula. The border between New Netherland and the Nordic colonies will likely be the Connecticut River, with the exception of the area around Hartford, CT, which was founded by the Dutch IOTL. The border there would likely be the Chicopee and Quinebaug rivers. I'm sure the Dutch would expand west to some degree, but the Dutch weren't really settler colonizers IOTL, so it wouldn't be to the same extent as their Nordic and English neighbors, unless Dutch policy towards settlement is different from our world.
France is an interesting one. They're pretty much locked out of the American East Coast, and while colonies along the Gulf Coast are possible, it'd be a bit too much like EC/FC for my liking. I agree that they'll focus more on The Caribbean and South America ITTL, although where in South America they colonize is something I'm still thinking over. Northern Brazil and Guiana is a strong possibility. The French colonized that region IOTL with both France Equinoctial and French Guiana, and Lord knows that it'd have potential in terms of being a cash cow for the French treasury. However, a French Amazon would in all likelihood be a giant slavery-driven cash crop colony like the Caribbean, so it's not really in the category of being a proper French settler colony (and, you know, slavery). What I've also though of is the French, looking to further their reach and weaken their rivals, poaching the La Plata colony off of the Spanish during a future war. I actually thought of making EC/FC a timeline about a French Southern Cone at first, before deciding on the French American South idea. I don't think the French Southern Cone would get a ton of settlement, though. French Canada IOTL only got about 8,000 permanent settlers, and while La Plata is certainly nicer climatically than Quebec, it's much further away, so it'd likely balance out to a similar number if the French keep their OTL trends in terms of immigration. As I said earlier, a French Australia is a possibility, but I'm likely going to have New Zealand colonized by the then likely fully unified Scandinavia, if only because I retconned a Nordic New Zealand in EC/FC.
I mean look at Portugese Brazil, it was a slavery mess but there was still massive white settlers so the same can happen in French Brazil. Plus the French modus operandi for colonization was always more for profit than actually settling it with their people though Brazil would necessitate Portuguese Brazil level immigration to control likely.
As for South Africa, yeah just look at how the Anglo settlers treated the Native Americans. Insert any Shaka Zulu expy and suddenly a white majority South(ern?) Africa seems more plausible. IIRC the Khoisan indigenous peoples of Southern Africa were devastated by smallpox much like the Native Americans but the Dutch didn’t have the population to take advantage of that and make the region white majority before they recovered/Xhosa and other smallpox resistant groups came down from the north. England will have no such population problems.
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As you mentioned, the French and Portuguese were different colonizers. Portugal constantly exported a huge percentage of its population, to the point where I think the crown had to restrict emigration. France, on the other hand, had very little emigration, apart from the Huguenots. Northern Brazil is largely mixed race IOTL because of how many Portuguese moved there, something a French Brazil likely wouldn't have to nearly the same extent if the French emigration trends are similar ITTL. In addition, Southern Brazil is actually quite temperate in many regions, thus making it suitable for European settlement. Northern Brazil is full on tropical, with all the disease it entails. A surviving France Equinoctial would look a lot more like Haiti or the French Caribbean in terms of ethnic demographics than it would OTL's Brazil.
As for South Africa, the Khoisan are going to be completely replaced by the Anglo settlers, with Western SA and Namibia being solidly White majority ITTL. The Bantus, on the other hand, are more numerous, technologically advanced and disease resistant, so I expect a lot of bloody frontier wars between the various Bantu groups and the expanding Anglo-African (hmmm, Anglo-African, I might just adopt that term from now on) settlers coming from The Cape. A Shaka Zulu analogue would make a White majority Southern Africa more likely, but considering that we'll have 300 years worth of butterflies by then it's no guarantee that any similar figure would arise. Either way, I expect the Anglo-Africans to win against the Bantus due to the technological and tactical disparity (I'm not butterflying the Industrial Revolution, that's for sure), but the Bantus won't go down without a fight, that's for sure. Expect something like OTL's American Indian Wars, but on a much larger and much more bloody scale, with all the war crimes and atrocities that implies.
I agree. Though Shaka Zulu expy isn't unbelievable IMO, even without him, you will see the Anglos slowly pushing them out.
It is also not impossible that France does have a change in settling policy for its Brazil colony inspired by the great success of Carolina's settler colonies. I imagine they will also end up discovering that governing Haiti with 9 slaves to 1 Frenchmen may be easy but governing northern Brazil and Guyana with that ratio will be downright impossible.
Also IMO, the creation of Britain is inevitable. Elizabeth's successor is already going to be James VI and I and if his popular son Henry Frederick survives via butterfly, chances are Britain will actually be created earlier than OTL (like what happened in @VVD0D95 's timeline). Even without that, the union of its crowns and increasing interest in stronger economic and military power together is likely to create Britain eventually.
I think British Africa will be white majority through various diseases and through the Scots Irish murdering everyone because they want living land in the Highlands.
On the French colonising Southern Brazil and Argentina I do think if the French do large plantations I could see a class of Frenchmen going there and bringing French slaves along even if African slaves would be used more.
On the French colonising Southern Brazil and Argentina I do think if the French do large plantations I could see a class of Frenchmen going there and bringing French slaves along even if African slaves would be used more.
I agree. It would be par the course for Anglo settlers let's be real (looks at North America and Australia)
The topic is French colonization of Northern Brazil as Southern Brazil is already under Portugal and Argentina is likely to still go Spanish.
There's no such thing as French slaves because medieval Frenchmen were not enslaved by fellow French, enslavement was for Africans in their minds. IMO we'd see Portugal but French and covering all of Northern Brazil and Guyana, Guiana, and Suriname and maybe contest with Spanish Venezuela and giving France massive power projection in the Caribbean to compete with Spain.
If France does still colonise New Orleans, they probably lose it to the voracious Anglos I'm ngl.
I mean the British were basically shoving their undesirables there to do work for them it's a very good strategy if anything.
Hmm I thought we were getting French Argentina/south Brazil not northern Brazil. I still do think the French can take these lands from the Portuguese and Spanish. Hell a Portuguese Argentina would be interesting too.
I actually doubt in France's ability to take Portugal's Brazilian colonies namely because of the Anglo-Portugese traditional alliance and well even Spain will have no true desire to see it happen. And in this era, Spain is dominant, it will be immensely hard for Brazil to dislodge Portugal and Spain from anywhere except northern Brazil/Guyana region.
What parts of the Caribbean should the Kalmar Union colonize? Obviously there are OTL's Danish and Swedish colonies in the Caribbean, but with a larger and more unified effort I imagine the Scandinavians could take more. Maybe even something like Guyana could be within the realm of possibility.
Potentially yeah. The sugar islands are of great interest and if they are smart they’d rule them as one administration.
In the meantime in the north the Kalmar continue to blob over Iceland, Greenland, Nee England, Canada, and the Great Lakes
I've decided on my next update. Here's a pretty obvious hint:
I'd love to hear your ideas and suggestions.
I'd love to hear your ideas and suggestions.