Una diferente ‘Plus Ultra’ - the Avís-Trastámara Kings of All Spain and the Indies (Updated 11/7)

[Earl Marshal]

I would say that Henry Tudor could certainly survive a little longer than OTL. He really took the deaths of Arthur and Elisabeth very hard and that likely played into the poor health he experienced in his later years. I would also argue that Arthur dying in 1502 led to Elisabeth dying in childbirth a year later. If Arthur is still alive there is less of an immediate need for Henry to sire anymore children. So a surviving Arthur and a surviving Elisabeth likely prolongs Henry's life a little further than in TTL.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

I think Henry VII stayed alive as long as he could to ensure that Henry VIII would get as old as he could before dying. Here Arthur is a adult and he can die in peace in 1505, there is really nothing for him cling to live if I may be that brutal. Also I can picture Elizabeth of York dying before 1510 as well, the children of Edward IV did not seems to have great health.

 

[Earl Marshal]

I think Henry VII stayed alive as long as he could to ensure that Henry VIII would get as old as he could before dying. Here Arthur is a adult and he can die in peace in 1505, there is really nothing for him cling to live if I may be that brutal. Also I can picture Elizabeth of York dying before 1510 as well, the children of Edward IV did not seems to have great health.

Henry Tudor was 52 when he died in OTL so he probably wouldn't have had much longer anyway. There is something to be said about not needing to stay alive based on a sense of duty. With both Arthur and Henry alive, the Tudors are pretty secure on the throne, so there's no urgent need for him to stay alive as long as possible hoping for a new son or a grandson by Henry VIII.

I believe only one of Elisabeth's siblings lived into their 40's so while she could live a little longer than she did, it probably wouldn't be much longer. Maybe a year or two at best and then Henry Tudor becomes an emotional wreck and loses the will to live like OTL.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Yes they both die in 1505 now

 

[Torbald]

~ El Mundo en General ~
Parte II: To Reform or Compromise, c. 1500 - 1525​

- Religious Migrants and Swiss Revolts -
​

The Catholic Monarchs’ clerical reforms, which primarily cracked down on priests and monks guilty of absenteeism, marriage, or otherwise, also produced some unintended results, in turn creating groups of religious migrants. The sudden enthusiasm for clerical austerity and piety sustained by the reforms generated a great number of both clerical and lay organizations that sought to engage the public through preaching and acts of charity - using their own poverty and devotion as an example to the masses. However, certain brotherhoods that emerged in this religious awakening stressed the need for anti-materialism among the clergy to the point that it was deemed akin to the heretical teachings of the earlier Fraticelli and Dulcinians. Foremost of such groups was “La Hermandad del Rigor” (The Brotherhood of the Rigor”), which became targeted by the Inquisition, causing its members to either recant or to flee into Southern France - primarily into the region of Landes. Another religious undercurrent in Spain at the time was the growth of popular mysticism. For the powers-that-be, the most troubling result of this interest in mystical Christianity was the appearance of “los Iluminados” (retrospectively named), which was a secret society amongst the middle and upper classes that believed in an intense, mystical connection to God necessary for salvation that could only be achieved by a select group of people (almost exclusively never from the peasantry). Their belief in a pseudo-gnostic “elect” and their penchant for individual interpretation of the Scriptures made them suspect to the Inquisition as well, and their teachings were universally suppressed in Spanish universities and elsewhere, leading to their gradual emigration from Spain (usually to Southern France also, primarily around Toulouse and along the Garonne).

Meanwhile, in Switzerland, incompatibility in the aftermath of the Swabian War between the Hapsburgs’ more authoritarian policies and the Swiss tradition of autonomy and burgher freedom caused quite a deal of tension. The Hapsburgs’ insistence on religious orthodoxy did not mesh well with the livelihoods of many Swiss, who appreciated their remoteness from the imperious weight of both the crown and mitre - none more so than the so-called “Freie leute,” the free folk. The Freileute, as they would be known to posterity, lived primarily in a conglomeration of a few small villages between St. Gallen and Uznach and practiced a way of life that attracted the attention of hardline clerics in the vicinity: what made these “free folk” free was the fact that they did flout nearly every tax laid on them, especially the tithe. While the Freileute attended Mass and, ostensibly, believed in all of the Sacraments, they denounced the physical wealth and consequent corruption of the Church, and refused to further enrich it, emphasizing personal piety and independent acts of devotion. Also, they organized themselves communally, with every villager doing his or her part to ensure that every member of the village was fed, clothed, and sheltered in those rough hills in which they lived. None of this put the local bishop at ease, and the Freileute were gradually removed from their land with Hapsburg assistance from the years 1504 to 1506. However, the strong communal culture of the Freileute and the rapidity with which they were expelled meant that they migrated in unison and retained their way of living when they finally settled around Kassel and Göttingen, where they earned their moniker from the locals. The Freileute quickly became respected by their new neighbors for their honesty, holiness, good work ethic and a strong instinct for charity. The Freileute held a disdain for city life and rarely interacted with those outside their communities apart from matters of business, but they gradually made their presence very much in their environs do their tireless work as pamphleteers. The Freileute would regularly pool funds in their communities to have woodcuts made expressing their dissatisfaction with the haughtiness and materialism of the princes of the Empire and of the Church, and, coping regularly with persecution from the same nobility and clergy, the Freileute slowly intensified their attacks. The sight of a Freileute courier walking the country roads of Hesse and Brunswick, leaving his pamphlets and tracts nailed to the doors of country estates and churches, became of staple of the region, leading to the locals giving them another nickname: “Die Apostel der Zwecke” - meaning both the “Apostles of the Tack,” and also, somewhat subversively, the “Apostles of the Purpose” - from which the name of their spiritual successors “Die Zwecken” (Zweckers in the English speaking countries). The Freileute, along with their rare blend of Catholic orthodoxy with anti-authoritarian values, would mostly disappear in the coming decades, but their ideals would provide an important springboard in spurring a socioreligious revolution.

Freileute pamphlet condemning profligate and prodigal clergy, c. 1512​

The tensions between the Swiss and the Hapsburgs would finally boil over into a set of rebellions known as “Der Fällkrieg,” or the “Felling War” amongst the Swiss, due them ending in further dissolution of Swiss self-determination. The first rebellion of the Fällkrieg occurred in none other than the Three Leagues of the Grisons, wherein the Swabian War had begun back in 1499. The proximity of the Three Leagues to Hapsburg Tyrol meant that the Hapsburgs’ policies were felt more heavily than elsewhere in the Swiss cantons, leading to accusations and depredations on both sides. For instance, alongside reports of Hapsburg agents entering homes in the city of Chur in the dead of night and accosting Swiss men who they accused of mercenary work for the French, there was also an account of a certain Johann Meier, a Swiss laborer, striking down a Hapsburg-appointed tax collector with his work maul over a payment dispute, following which he was executed without a trial. Eventually, in June of 1514, a group of some 120 Swiss commoners formed a secret assembly in Filisur and declared the Three Leagues resurrected, with the resistance against the Hapsburgs renewed. What followed was nearly four years of bloodshed, with the Swiss waging a fairly effective war of attrition against the Hapsburg garrisons. Unfortunately for the Swiss, the entry of Louis XII’s army into Italy in 1515 meant that the Three Leagues and its passes became the point of intense traffic of Hapsburg forces, and the Swiss resistance found itself starved out. While the new Three Leagues officially surrendered in May of 1518 - resulting in the absorption of its territories into the duchy of Tyrol as the Bishopric of Chur - a new front to the Fällkrieg had already opened up in Central Switzerland. The Swiss Confederacy, albeit greatly weakened by the Swabian War, still existed, and was therefore still a beacon of hope to the Swiss that desired to wiggle out from under the Imperial thumb. Many idealist Swiss individuals and associations had supported the rebellion in the Three Leagues as soon as it had started, and, in April of 1516, Bern, Schwyz, Lucerne, and Freiburg had all officially voted in favor of sponsoring the Three Leagues and mobilizing against the Hapsburgs. However, even this front was doomed to fail. What had begun as a united effort to throw off the Hapsburgs was eventually riven by religious differences, with the originally uniformly Catholic ranks of the Swiss opposition becoming filled with growing numbers of Protestants, many of whom earned their Catholic compatriots’ contempt through acts of iconoclasm and claims to religious supremacy over Switzerland. The Fällkrieg would eventually end in Swiss defeat by March of 1520, with the four major cities of the Confederacy made into Free Cities with Imperial immediacy.

​

What differentiated the Fällkrieg from the Swabian War or other previous inter-Imperial conflicts was its socioreligious aspect. The Swiss were here fighting against forces that had already been granted, by fully ratified treaty, legal authority over them. The motivations of the Swiss were not solely focused on vague notions of patriotism or Swiss liberty as they had been during the Swabian War, but were now centered on issues of class agitation and divisive theological questions bound together by the more unifying aspect of “Swissness” (“Schweizheit”). For this reason, the Fällkrieg is often considered to be the beginning of a long, grisly period of German and Imperial history known as “Die Sozialkriege” - the German Social Wars.

- Die Große Deutsche Reformierung -​

Both Catholic and Protestant historians of the Reform period on the 16th century agree that Western Christianity had developed a very unhealthy spiritual and ecclesiastical tradition during the Renaissance. There were, of course, the more conspicuous grievances of simony, nepotism, and the sale of indulgences, but what was perhaps the more crucial issue was that of justification. Popular Christianity just before the beginning of the Reform period can be characterized by an intense moral agitation: the prevalence of indulgences, the profusion of Saint cults, an absolutely flooded market of relics, and the overall uncertainty of life and death in those times had produced a culture of scrupulosity which could not be borne by any sane society for long. In 1515, there were possibly no other two men who suffered under this agitation more than the clerics Andreas Karlstadt and Martin Luther. Although both faculty of the University of Wittenberg, Karlstadt and Luther were both from different theological traditions - Karlstadt being a scholastic secular canon, Luther being a monk in the Augustinian tradition - but they connected with one another over the issue of the Church’s corruption while on pilgrimage in Rome in early 1515, where they both properly met. Karlstadt and Luther failed to see the profit of such grand edifices and so many avenues offered for salvation when the Vicar of Christ tolerated so much debauchery and conscientious Catholics such as themselves felt so imperiled salvifically - especially Luther, who, despite hours in prayer and a plethora of fasts and pilgrimages, continued to agonize over the fate of his soul, remarking on this period: “I lost touch with Christ the Savior and Comforter, and made of him the jailer and hangman of my poor soul.”

Luther und Karlstadt
​

This ultimately transformed into fostering what they felt to be a dogma based solely on Sacred Scripture - as outlined in their 75 Theses - with faith in Jesus Christ re-centered as the primary prerequisite for salvation. By trusting in the reality of Christ’s sacrifice, there was therefore no reason to tear oneself apart in order to discern whether one was saved or not. Life was meant to be lived according to a strict, Christian moral code, of course, but it was also meant to be lived through a surrender to God’s merciful providence - salvation through Christ was a gift to be accepted, not a goal to be attained, one of “faith, not works.” The nascent doctrine of Karlstadt and Luther possessed an ecclesiastical and political angle as well. While Karlstadt and Luther both considered Jan Hus to have been an authentic heresiarch, they both believe that he should not have been burnt at the stake and, more importantly, that the outcome of the Council of Constance - the death of Conciliarism - had been a mistake. In their eyes, the Church would need to adopt a much more decentralized, conciliar structure, that was assisted by an empowered state and that emphasized the participation and, indeed, authority of each and every baptized Christian in regards to his or her own faith. - which, in turn, would require the mass distribution of the Scriptures translated into the vernacular. The Papacy might be tolerated in its capacity as “first among equals,” but, as it stood - that is, as a state in its own right with the power to manipulate European politics at large - it was in great need of a reduction of its powers.

During this process, while the local magnates were still wondering whether or not to accost the two, Karlstadt and Luther entered entered into correspondence with other interested, theologically minded individuals, but three stuck out the most: Thomas Müntzer, a priest in Braunschweig, Johann Maier von Eck, chair of theology at the University of Ingolstadt, Christoph von Scheurl, a humanist who had arranged for Luther and Eck’s meeting, and David Vinter af Aarhus, a Danish burgher. While the theology between Karlstadt, Luther, and these others remained roughly consistent (excepting Eck) , there were important differences that affected the path of this movement:

• Müntzer believed that the corruption of the Church was directly intertwined with the corruption of the nobility, and therefore both would have to be reworked from the ground up - even if that meant taking violent measures. Müntzer reached this position after a series of arguments with a certain Ulrich Zwingli, a Freileute, who had convinced him that a truly Christian, “Edenic” society required a “priesthood of all believers” - meaning the abolition of the entire Church structure - which in turn required the destruction of the nobility, which was the safeguard of the Church.
• Eck, while acknowledging the need for drastic reforms in the Church and society, believed that a strong state was needed - the larger and more powerful, the better - which would prop up the Church (instead of the status quo, often being vice versa) and promote faithful adherence to the Christian faith amongst its subjects.

Karlstadt, an idealist egalitarian, gradually drifted towards Müntzer and Zwingli in his thought, eventually renouncing his three doctoral degrees, dressing in peasant's’ clothing, promoting a more mystical, personal interpretation of Scripture, and insisting on being called only “Brother Andreas.” Luther, on the other hand, sided with Eck, although he disagreed with him on the largesse of power conceded to the monarch. These affiliations would have dire consequences for what would eventually be somewhat disparagingly named “Protestantism,” most dismal of which was a legitimate civil war.

With the Emperor busy helping his grandson Charles tame the Bohemian-Hungarian nobility, Müntzer, Karlstadt, and Zwingli felt confident that it was time to strike. Rallying tens of thousands of peasants with their fiery sermons, this Protestant triumvirate spent the early months of 1520 capturing arms and supplies, but their success would not last. These Reformers found out very quickly that popular rebellions were extremely difficult to control: what was meant to be an upswell of liberated, justice-minded peasantry taking possession of their homeland very quickly turned into a chaotic rampage, in which peasant groups fought against one another, nobles infiltrated the ranks in order to profit from the situation, and rape, murder, and looting became commonplace on both sides. This conflict, known as “Der Bauernkrieg” (“The Peasants’ War”) retained just enough of a moral centrifuge to allow it to mobilize possibly as many as 300,000 peasants across a vast swath of the Northern Empire, but that only increased the fierceness of Imperial opposition, with virtually every major noble in the region exercising disproportionate brutality in order to maintain control. Many of these nobles had, by this point, been leaning towards Protestant teachings - especially as a means of opposing domination by the staunchly Catholic Hapsburgs - yet the Bauernkrieg forced many of them to reconsider these beliefs, especially when it became necessary for them to request direct Imperial aid. For all the appeal of Protestant dogma, the association of it with a movement that aspired to turn the societal order on its head simply made it too much of an existential threat to the nobility. By the end of the war, Thomas Müntzer had been captured and executed, Zwingli had gone missing in Guelders, and Karlstadt had to seek refuge in Norway, although he would return 6 years later. In total, some 100,000 German peasants were killed - a remarkable butcher that would be hard to match anywhere for decades to come. The northwestern Empire, from Upper Thuringia to East Frisia, was utterly ravaged, and would take a more than a century to fully recover. Meanwhile, the presence of Imperial garrisons in the Palatinate, Franconia, and Württemberg[1] - as well as the confident, authoritative presence that Maximilian I seemed to exude - all worked to prevent anything nearly as large-scale from occurring in most of the southern Empire.

Luther had split with Karlstadt on the issue of the state, and, now having witnessed both the anarchic depredations perpetrated by the peasant rebellions and the innumerable, contradictory translations of Scripture that had shot up over the last 5 years, began to align even more with Johann von Eck: he recognized the necessity of strong, Imperial leadership to quell and correct uprisings that could not be handled by lesser rulers, of an ordained priesthood to ensure qualified religious instruction, and even set himself less firmly against the Papacy (eck himself would totally renege on his support for Conciliarism). Luther was therefore welcoming to the idea of leaving the protection of the Electorate of Saxony to meet with representatives of Maximilian I at the city of Bayreuth alongside his colleague Christoph von Scheurl in July of 1521, with Johann von Eck acting as mediator. Cardinal Thomas Cajetan, the Papal legate at Wittenberg, requested to be a part of this audience, but Maximilian I insisted on keeping this meeting separate from a formal discussion (which Cajetan was invited to) that he had arranged at Wittenberg, to occur two months later. Luther and Scheurl’s party met a compromise with the Emperor, allowing them freedom of speech and movement for the time being, to be safeguarded by his Imperial authority against detractors, so long as they did not denigrate any of the Sacraments and refrained from attacking the Pope by name, whether personal or of his office. This agreement, later called the “Pact of Bayreuth,” was a prudent decision on Maximilian I’s part, as it ensured the pacifism of a large number of Imperial subjects: by 1521, Luther’s followers, associates, and sympathizers made up very strong minorities in Saxony, Thuringia, and Franconia, and many more - including a number of Catholics - regarded Luther as a popular hero. However, this peace would not last forever, as Maximilian I was already ailing (having to remain, at most, seated for the duration of his meeting with Luther), and would die on the 15th of October, 1521 [2]. Maximilian I was no friend to heretics, but he harped on the need for “Ewiger Landfriede” for a reason, recognizing the need for peaceful discussion amongst his subjects.

Rebellionen in Mitteleuropa
(1: Der Bauernkrieg, 1519-1521; 2: Der Fällkrieg, 1514-1520; 3: War of the League of Olomouc, October 1518 - April 1519; light red: areas affected; dark red: areas of greatest intensity)​

_______________________________________________________________________________________​

[1] Having been the recipient of direct military intervention in local affairs by Maximilian I.
[2] The 21st anniversary of his victory over the Swiss in the Swabian War.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Where is Philip the dumbass in this scenario? Did you kill him of? Is Maximilian gonna live that long? Why do you make people live for ludicrusly long times?

 

[Janprimus]

*throws confetti* Arthur lives! Arthur lives!

But I don't think Henry VII should have survived until 1512, he was ailing already in 1505, so you can kill him of then. Now how is my homegirl Catherine doing?

Personally I hope that the Polish-Lithuanian Jagiellonian Dynasty will also survive.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Yes future prince of Wales can wed Sigismund the old eldest daughter Hedwig

 

[Torbald]

I'm of School od thougth that only direct-related butterflies are allowed... Don't see how Miguel's survival can influence will Lajos ne born... But you are the author...

There's a myriad of butterflies I could see potentially having an effect on whether or not Lajos is ever conceived. If the TL was focused exclusively on the Iberian personal union, I could see your point, but there's already been significant changes in both Italy, southern Germany and the Ottoman Empire, all regions bordering Vladislaus' kingdoms to some extent. Literally just receiving a messenger with news about this or that event could butterfly away Lajos being conceived.

That said, how about just having Lajos die after birth? He was born prematurely OTL, and barely survived.

IMHO with same parents, I don't see why he wouldn't be born? Same thing with survival, the method was very original, so he should stay alive.

Also, same thing with Sulejman, wasn't he the governor of Manissa or Feodosia Sanjak in 1514?

Just because it doesn't necessarily follow that Miguel da Paz surviving would prohibit Lajos II from being born, it also doesn't necessarily follow that Miguel surviving means Lajos II would be born. With something as 50/50 as conception, the slightest thing can affect the outcome - so preventing someone from being born is really, in a sense, the smallest butterfly possible. You could even chalk TTL's Vladislaus' failure to conceive to the fact that the Hapsburgs are now very much more focused on gaining his realm, the intimidation/anxiety of which might have caused him to fail to perform, if you will. There are potentially millions of things that could have prevented Lajos II from being born and, given Vladislaus' age at the time, it was a miracle he was born at all IOTL. The same goes for Suleiman: yes, IOTL he was filling a governorate at the time, but the true PoD was 16 years before that. There is no saying with exact precision where Suleiman would be or what he would be doing at this point ITTL.

Also I would like to point out that Miguel surviving is not necessarily the only PoD, there are actually 3 proper PoDs in total: the first being Miguel's survival, the second being France screwing up the Second Italian War worse that IOTL, and the third being a Hapsburg victory in the Swabian War - neither of the latter two necessarily follow from Miguel surviving. That's why those two events got their own update, as opposed to being part of an "Estado del Reino" or "Resto del Mundo" update.

From a writing standpoint, more divergences make for more enjoyable reading. I could regurgitate OTL history as much as would satisfy probability, but that's just overwhelmingly tedious.

Reminds me of my long-mothballed TL where Luther became a cardinal and Zwingli was the Reformation's leading figure.

I wish I had seen this before I wrote the most recent chapter You should continue writing that though! I'd read it!

Arthur can handle the Rantzwiller thingy. He will be 19-20 in 1505, so you can kill Henry off safely. Henry is more likely to stay out of the war, he was a greedy paranoid miser who did not engage in warfare after 1490. Arthur/Catherine is more likely to wage war against france/scotland. Are you gonna do battle of flodden? Please don't kill of James IV, I really like him. Did Elizabeth of York die with Arthur surviving? Babies? Teeeeelllll meeee moooore teeeelll meee mooooreee!

I would say that Henry Tudor could certainly survive a little longer than OTL. He really took the deaths of Arthur and Elisabeth very hard and that likely played into the poor health he experienced in his later years. I would also argue that Arthur dying in 1502 led to Elisabeth dying in childbirth a year later. If Arthur is still alive there is less of an immediate need for Henry to sire anymore children. So a surviving Arthur and a surviving Elisabeth likely prolongs Henry's life a little further than in TTL.

I think Henry VII stayed alive as long as he could to ensure that Henry VIII would get as old as he could before dying. Here Arthur is a adult and he can die in peace in 1505, there is really nothing for him cling to live if I may be that brutal. Also I can picture Elizabeth of York dying before 1510 as well, the children of Edward IV did not seems to have great health.

Henry Tudor was 52 when he died in OTL so he probably wouldn't have had much longer anyway. There is something to be said about not needing to stay alive based on a sense of duty. With both Arthur and Henry alive, the Tudors are pretty secure on the throne, so there's no urgent need for him to stay alive as long as possible hoping for a new son or a grandson by Henry VIII.

I believe only one of Elisabeth's siblings lived into their 40's so while she could live a little longer than she did, it probably wouldn't be much longer. Maybe a year or two at best and then Henry Tudor becomes an emotional wreck and loses the will to live like OTL.

I'll consider moving his death to 1508-1509. Also, as for Queen Catalina's children, there's one son and one daughter, Henry and Elizabeth, while the child on the way (as of 1510) is a boy.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Staph it! You made Isabella I live longer than whats realistic you can pull the trigger on Henry in 1505 no one will miss him. Also where is Philip the handsome?

 

[Torbald]

Where is Philip the dumbass in this scenario? Did you kill him of? Is Maximilian gonna live that long? Why do you make people live for ludicrusly long times?

I'm assuming you're referring to Philip I - he's referred to as Philip IV (of Burgundy) here on account of him never being king of Castile. He's still alive, as it was a typhoid fever that he caught in Spain (kind of a freak accident, really) that killed him in 1506 IOTL. The reason Maximilian has lived longer (only two years longer ITTL, he died at the age of 59 IOTL) is in part due to greater success during his reign (seeing his grandson placed on the thrones of Bohemia and Hungary, walloping the Swiss, finally getting the Empire to work towards the centralization that he had hoped for) and also due to Philip IV not dying as he did IOTL (Maximilian grew incredibly morbid after that, having his coffin brought with him wherever he travelled). Maximilian was also just a strong guy: reported to be some six feet tall and quite broad-shouldered.

Personally I hope that the Polish-Lithuanian Jagiellonian Dynasty will also survive.

I would really like it to as well. The problem is getting them to modernize/keep their hands off the old family property in Bohemia and Hungary. I'll keep thinking...

Yes future prince of Wales can wed Sigismund the old eldest daughter Hedwig

Yes, bring England further and further into the Hapsburg fold

 

[Janprimus]

The old family property in Bohemia & Hungary is a bit of stretch. Vladislaus II was the first Jagiellonian on those thrones, moreover IOTL Maximilian and Vladislaus II had agreed upon the Habsburg succession to Hungary in the event of Vladislaus would have left no male heir in the treaty of Pressburg (1491). It doesn't mean, that a match with Anne of Bohemia & Hungary wouldn't have been important, since otherwise opposition could rally to Anna and her husband.

Edit: IOTL a double marriage Louis marrying a Habsburg archduchess and Anna marrying a Habsburg archduke was agreed upon between Vladislaus and Maximilian after Louis was born in 1506. In 1515 there was the First Congress of Vienna attended by Vladislaus II of Bohemia & Hungary, Sigismund I of Poland-Lithuania and Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian. There mutual succession treaty was confirmed, in exchange Maximilian stopped supporting the enemies of Poland-Lithuania, he would arbitrate between them and the Teutonic Order.

 

[Earl Marshal]

Nice update. It seems like the TTL Protestant Reformation is going to be weaker at least in the HRE. That also should be a good compromise for the Hapsburgs and the Protestants that helps preserve the unity of the HRE but I'm guessing they are going to muck it up somehow and end up with a similar decentralized mess like OTL.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Made it through this TL. This is interesting as hell.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Philip IV (of Burgundy)

Or soon to be Kaiser Philip I right?

Nice update. It seems like the TTL Protestant Reformation is going to be weaker at least in the HRE. That also should be a good compromise for the Hapsburgs and the Protestants that helps preserve the unity of the HRE but I'm guessing they are going to muck it up somehow and end up with a similar decentralized mess like OTL.

Without the support of a major Imperial prince Protestantism will have a more uphill road. I can kinda see Scandinavia adopting it like OTL (moreso for Norway and Sweden than Denmark) though.

 

[AceofDens]

How will various cities develop in Spain (Lisbon, Madrid/Toledo, Naples, Barcelona)? Specifically Lisbon since I imagine it will be getting a good portion of that sweet Peruvian silver.

 

[Torbald]

The old family property in Bohemia & Hungary is a bit of stretch. Vladislaus II was the first Jagiellonian on those thrones, moreover IOTL Maximilian and Vladislaus II had agreed upon the Habsburg succession to Hungary in the event of Vladislaus would have left no male heir in the treaty of Pressburg (1491). It doesn't mean, that a match with Anne of Bohemia & Hungary wouldn't have been important, since otherwise opposition could rally to Anna and her husband.

Edit: IOTL a double marriage Louis marrying a Habsburg archduchess and Anna marrying a Habsburg archduke was agreed upon between Vladislaus and Maximilian after Louis was born in 1506. In 1515 there was the First Congress of Vienna attended by Vladislaus II of Bohemia & Hungary, Sigismund I of Poland-Lithuania and Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian. There mutual succession treaty was confirmed, in exchange Maximilian stopped supporting the enemies of Poland-Lithuania, he would arbitrate between them and the Teutonic Order.

Right you are. Do you think there will be any other points of contention for Poland and the Hapsburgs ITTL, the way things are shaping up?

Nice update. It seems like the TTL Protestant Reformation is going to be weaker at least in the HRE. That also should be a good compromise for the Hapsburgs and the Protestants that helps preserve the unity of the HRE but I'm guessing they are going to muck it up somehow and end up with a similar decentralized mess like OTL.

TTL Protestantism is definitely weaker, and will probably become even weaker (in most places) with come concerted Hapsburg opposition.

Oh ye of little faith! While you're right in guessing that the Hapsburgs won't be able to centralize the HRE quite as much as they'd like (as a bona fide absolute monarchy), they'll have just enough competence in that concentrated bloodline of theirs to make the HRE less resembling of the mess we saw IOTL.

Made it through this TL. This is interesting as hell.

Thank you very much Let's hope I can keep it that way!

Or soon to be Kaiser Philip I right?

Without the support of a major Imperial prince Protestantism will have a more uphill road. I can kinda see Scandinavia adopting it like OTL (moreso for Norway and Sweden than Denmark) though.

As much as I wanted to put Charles V on the Imperial throne immediately after Maximilian died, it felt dishonest, so Kaiser Philip it will be.
Scandinavia (religiously) will follow a very similar path as in OTL, and the relative weakness of Protestantism in the Empire and the different location of TTL's Peasants' War will in turn make Northern Germany less unified and an easier target for the Nordic states.

How will various cities develop in Spain (Lisbon, Madrid/Toledo, Naples, Barcelona)? Specifically Lisbon since I imagine it will be getting a good portion of that sweet Peruvian silver.

Better across the board, I imagine. Without the Comunero revolt, the Portuguese Restoration War, and a good deal of French incursions and Barbary raids (possibly no Peninsular War, too), Spain and its major cities will have to put up with a lot less devastation. Likewise, without the disinterested/distracted Hapsburgs funneling money elsewhere (into Imperial Wars or vanity projects), the infrastructure will also improve significantly and its unlikely that we'll see events like the devastating plagues of 1590-1690 (the population of OTL Spain dropped by more than a million from 1600-1700, while the population of OTL France grew by a million despite all their bloodshed, famine, and chaos in that same time frame).

 

[Torbald]

Also, I plan on shortening the length of my updates, just so I can put them out more regularly...

 

[Torbald]

~ El Mundo en General ~
Parte III: State Churches and Vainglory, 1520-1530

En Vintersk forsamling

- Stat og Kirke -
​

In between the Karlstadt-Luther split, a middle ground began to form in Protestantism. David Vinter, one of the correspondents and, now, coreligionists of Luther and Karlstadt, had taken it upon himself to begin preaching in his homeland of Denmark. What set Vinter apart from both Karlstadt and Luther was that, unlike Karlstadt, he believed the Protestant movement needed to be carried out by the middle and upper classes - transforming a Christian nation into a more godly society from the top down rather than vice versa, while serving to instruct the more “ignorant” classes - and, unlike Luther, Vinter believed that Imperial government violated the right of lords and that reconciliation with the Papists was impossible - any Protestant’s compromise with them would almost certainly require a violation of his or her conscience. These standpoints made Vinter’s particular brand of Protestantism much more palatable to the burghers, clergy, and nobility, while retaining the down-to-earth, uncompromising, fundamental-oriented exegesis that gave Protestantism its spiritual appeal. Beginning in 1518, Vinter had tremendous success in Denmark, and established a “Selskab for Kristne Breve” - a “Society of Christian Letters” - which wrote and printed a prodigious amount of proselytizing literature to be dispersed throughout Denmark and the cities of the Hanseatic League. Vinter would take up correspondence in turn with a number of leading Danish theologians, such as Hans Tausen, a monk from the monastery of Antvorskov, as well as the Pommeranian Johannes Bugenhagen, but the two most influential figures to lend their ears to Vinter were the bishops of Aarhus, Niels Clausen and his successor Ove Bille. Clausen had been bishop since 1490, and was consequently set in his ways, but he refused to jail Vinter despite his outspokenness. Bille was more conciliatory, discussing with Vinter what kind of society he hoped to achieve and his stances on the most important tenets of Christian doctrine. Bille was intrigued by Vinter’s belief in an organized clergy that no longer required a vow of chastity (and therefore also meant no more monasticism), as well as his (one might say) softening of “harder” Christian beliefs - such as the removal of the Sacrament of Reconciliation and a more “symbolicized” understanding of Holy Communion, with an emphasis on its communal aspect. Both Clausen and Bille (as well as the disinterest of Kings Christian II and Frederick I) protected Vinter for long enough to allow his teachings to disseminate sufficiently in Denmark for Frederick I to find himself waking up to a very different realm in the late 1520s.

David Vinter af Aarhus
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Frederick I and the Danish nobility had already heard all the lurid details of the disastrous Bauernkrieg in Germany, and also had firsthand experience with such social upheaval when they were driven out of a peasants’ republic in Dithsmarchen at the battle of Hemmingstedt in 1500. Frederick I consulted his leading bishops and court theologians, and condemned any and all Protestant sects in 1525. However, Denmark was no Spain or Holy Roman Empire - there was no apparatus like the Inquisition, and the Danish bishops, while influential, were nowhere near as important to the legitimacy and administration of the monarchy. Despite his proclamation, Frederick I elected to do nothing about these “Vinteringer” (or Vinterans/Winterans, as they came to be known in English), partly due to the fact that Denmark had lost nearly one-third of its military age knights at the battle of Hemmingstedt, and now lacked the expansive nobility necessary to counter a large peasant uprising. When Frederick I died in 1528 (at the age of 57), and was succeeded by his 24 year old son, Christian III, the official state conversion to Protestantism was inevitable. The youth of Christian III and his rumored proclivity for Protestantism combined with fears of the cementing of a dynasty in Denmark’s elective monarchy to cause a revolt amongst the Catholic nobility. However, what seemed to be a sure victory for the Catholic opposition quickly turned into disintegration, as the Catholic nobility further distanced the burgher and peasant class with wanton brutality while Catholic zealots soured their cause with acts of unprovoked violence against Protestants, all of which prompted a wave of anti-Catholic fervor, filled with acts of iconoclasm and revenge killings, the chaos in which the monarchy found it very easy to ransack the realm’s monasteries. By 1532, a “state church” - the first of its kind - following Vinteran theology had been founded in Denmark: “Den Danske Kirke,” headed by a (non-celibate) “Kongelig Bispesæde,” a “Royal Episcopate” selected directly by the king. This was a landmark event: while there were several princes and polities that had already adopted Protestantism, Denmark was the first major Christian kingdom to formally adopt Protestantism as its official religion, and in doing so had also practically turned religion into a department of the state. The failure of Protestantism to revolutionize the Holy Roman Empire, its consequent weakening, and its resurgence in Denmark meant that it would begin to take on a distinctively Northern appearance. The diffusion of Protestant missionaries and tracts now came primarily from Nordic cities as opposed to German farms and villages, spreading to coasts and ports it had not yet been able to reach - in the Netherlands, Livonia, Pommerania, England, Scotland, and elsewhere. As the other Scandinavian countries followed quickly in Denmark’s steps, with Sweden forming its own church under the king Gustav I Vasa in 1533, and Norway and Finland - as they were subjects of Denmark and Sweden, respectively - following suit. Karlstadt’s exile in Norway had brought Protestantism to its vibrant maritime culture, which now imported its newfound faith into the North Sea at large.

- Die Ruhe vor dem Sturm -​

Meanwhile, the German Protestants, still licking their wounds, were beginning to re-organize. The death of Maximilian I - an excellent arbitrator to some and a feared opponent to others - was of no comfort to either the Protestants or the Catholics of the Empire. However, while Philip IV was deemed “the Handsome” by contemporaries - implying he possibly inherited Maximilian’s stately stature - he was unable to project quite as much authority as his late father. Preferring French over German and spending the vast majority of his time in his native Netherlands, Philip IV - now, as Emperor, Philip I - supplied little confidence to his primarily German-speaking subjects, who were in desperate need of Imperial mediation. Philip the I & IV was not quite as incompetent as his detractors thought, while he lacked the same caliber of charisma as his father, the effectiveness of his rule in the Empire was greatly hampered by another war against the French (from 1524 to 1528). A number of Imperial princes used this temporary vacuum to continue their anti-Hapsburg designs, with Ernst I, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg, John III, Duke of Cleves, and Henry V, Duke of Mecklenburg all converting (either out of genuine belief or acquiescence to their subjects) to Vinteran Protestantism by 1535 - while Frederick III, the elector of Saxony, his heir Johann, and Philip I, landgrave of Hesse, all formally announced their support for Luther and Scheurl (not necessarily belief in the entirety of their teachings, however) and demanded the Emperor attend to the Church’s much-needed reform. Luckily for the Hapsburgs, while Philip the Handsome might have neglected the outcry of his German princes, his attentiveness to the Netherlands worked a multitude of benefits: while possibly reducing his effective authority in the Netherlands by allowing the Estates more privileges, Philip is otherwise known as a just and clement ruler amongst the inhabitants of Belgium to this day, as was his wife, Juana, who was infatuated with her Burgundian husband, and would consequently be known to his subjects as “Juana the Faithful” (Jeanne la Fidèle/Johanna de Getrouw).

Le couple bien-aimé​

- Vanité sans fin -

Roi Charles IX, c. 1529
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Louis XII was content to walk away with Savoy, his hegemony being untouched there and still very much in need of consolidation. But Louis XII was not king of France anymore. Having died in May of 1519 (aged 56), Louis XII passed the scepter to his only son, the 15 year old Charles IX. Luis XII had not endeavored to instruct his son in checking France’s aggressive activity against the capabilities of her enemies or the resolve of her people or (more importantly) her coffers - thus Charles IX grew up to be as pugnacious as any of his successors, and practically as soon as he felt comfortable on a horse he was leading an invasion of the Hapsburg possessions in the Franche-Comte and the Netherlands, while instructing Charles III, the Duke of Savoy, to begin organizing harrying activities into the duchy of Milan. On July 1st of 1524, the fourth war over Italy had begun. Unlike his father, Charles IX was not quite as caught up on the familial claim to Milan, and instead focused a good deal of his energies on attempting to seize territories which he felt were French by default (e.g. the remnants of the duchy of Burgundy), leading to this war’s oftentimes designation as the “Burgundian War.” This was a strategy that worked well for Charles IX, leading to a quick string of victories in Franche-Comte at Dole, Poligny, and (the most significant) Vesoul - wherein Charles IX personally led the charge, leaving 5,000 enemy troops dead and even succeeding in routing the feared Swiss pikemen. Nonetheless, Charles IX was still young and untested, failing to take Besançon when he had the chance, neglecting to send much-needed reinforcements to Artois, and never doing much of any consequence in Northern Italy, leaving the task almost entirely to his Venetian allies. Charles IX’s bombastic initial success ended - like each of the Italian Wars up to this point - in failure, with each front grinding to a halt and Charles IX only suing for peace in 1528 (long after any important action had taken place). Charles IX was lucky that the Hapsburgs had a very full plate at the time, as any aggressive action on their part would have ensured a French defeat, rather than the stalemate they received. Despite this disappointing and costly outing, Charles IX’s vigor for conquest had not abated. This was, in his eyes, an excellent opportunity to learn, and he would recoup his losses and try again in good time, yet the French lower classes increased their grumbling - Louis XII’s reforms could keep the realm afloat, but only for so long.

 

[Sceonn]

Seems Protestantism might actually spread even farther TTL, me likes.