TL: UK Overseas Regions [Redux]

[Devvy]

Interesting chapter.

I wonder how much Callaghan decision was will be lauded as good in the long term when Brits can fly or sail to the UK in the hot, hot Caribbean sun? Should have an impact on Spanish package holiday's, ditto Malta!

How much is pop culture changed by the influence of the new UK regions? Is reggae and ska coming over sooner?
With the US not as friendly to the UK this should massively impact the effects of US TV shows and movies coming to the UK, esp in the 60's onwards. Does the UK see Dragnet, Battlestar Galactica, Dallas, etc?
How about computing? I could see the UK/Commonwealth having a stronger native computing environment from having to build their own kit- this should have an economic impact. Sure, the 70's would still be bad, it was globally, but it should not be anywhere near as terrible as OTL.

Given changed circumstances I can actually see Thatcher, monetarism, and the destruction of the UK industrial base being avoided.

I think in the long run, and post airline-deregulation, there'll be a lot more holiday makers going to Malta, Seychelles, and the West Indies on holidays instead of Spain as you say. On the flip side; Spain & Portugal are still going to be interesting destinations for lots of families on price grounds - closer (so cheaper flights), and cheaper way of life.

As for culture, I think it'll take some time to change. There was already the Windrush generation of immigrants from the West Indies to the UK; I don't think there will be a massive influx of immigrants yet in this TL, but the anti-racism seeds will be sown a little earlier with the likes of black people playing in the English football team, publicly visible black MPs from the West Indies debating in Parliament will be a tad earlier.

With regards to the cultural stuff; I don't see the UK and US being enemies or anything - just not quite as close as OTL. Maybe more like France-US or Germany-US - in this TL, US-UK relations are warm, respectful - they both know they need each other (the US is needed in NATO, and the UK is needed as an anchor for a west-leaning Europe). They just aren't quite as "special" as OTL - there's no nuclear sharing here, but there will still be extensive combined military training exercises and operations, signal intelligence will likely be shared (if Aus and NZ can share stuff on this level in OTL, then this TL UK will be able to). The UK will just be a tad more wary that sometimes US and UK interests do not align exactly, and the UK will need to act without the US, and so won't be quite so attached at the hip to the USA.

The whole film & television market is likely going to happen anyway - it's the same language (more or less!), and so stuff is going to easily hop back and forth across the Atlantic.

The computing bit - yeah I can see a load of butterflies there. To be honest, you could easily end up with separate "internets" - one driven by US technical standards, and one driven by European technical standards, with some kind of gateway interface between them. I've been doing a lot of reading on Minitel (and Prestel) lately .

Hmm with all these overseas territories RN with something like the Rivers or Frigates and RFA maybe more New Fort Class ships or smaller stores there will be bigger also probably more Martime and transport aircraft under devlopment for the RAF.

Malta already has a regiment as does Bermuda have to wonder if what left of the Caribbean territories will get a regiment or will the larger islands get a territorial company.

The West Indies will almost certainly be able to support at least a regiment, similar to Malta, and would be needed anyhow for local operations. As for the military, I have a chapter dedicated to that coming up.

Thinking about it, sport in the UK is going to be a lot of fun - would the FA Cup include teams from Scotland, NI, Wales, Malta etc?

Cricket tournaments will be epic competitions.

Would the Olympic Committee insist on a joint UK team?

For sport, you'll have the West Indies as a home nation, and there are some other butterflies to come. I'd just point out that the FA Cup is still an English only competition even in OTL - each Home Nation has their equivalent cup competition.

England (which includes Wales in cricket) vs West Indies will be the grudge cricket match here.

For the Olympics, there is already a joint UK team (which is why we don't enter the football tournament at the Olympics) - the biggest change here will be that they even more publicly won't be able to use the "Team GB" name. It'll be "Team UK" under the British Olympic Association, and will represent all of GB, NI and the Overseas.

 

[anyone]

Are there any more islands left to be looked at for integration? It feels like most of them have been covered by this point. Also if there is a 12 year program for the integrated west indies why couldn't something similar be done for jamaica?

 

[Analytical Engine]

What's happening with the Cayman Islands?

 

[sarahz]

Thinking about it, sport in the UK is going to be a lot of fun - would the FA Cup include teams from Scotland, NI, Wales, Malta etc?

Cricket tournaments will be epic competitions.

Would the Olympic Committee insist on a joint UK team?

Assuming the National lottery still gets founded along with its transformation of UK sport then you add a lot of Caribbean sprinters the UK will have a strong team. Probably would have been really unfair on the world if Jamaica had also joined

 

[sarahz]

What's happening with the Cayman Islands?

cant see them joining too reliant on dodgy off shore funds....

 

[sarahz]

Interesting chapter.

I wonder how much Callaghan decision was will be lauded as good in the long term when Brits can fly or sail to the UK in the hot, hot Caribbean sun? Should have an impact on Spanish package holiday's, ditto Malta!

How much is pop culture changed by the influence of the new UK regions? Is reggae and ska coming over sooner?
With the US not as friendly to the UK this should massively impact the effects of US TV shows and movies coming to the UK, esp in the 60's onwards. Does the UK see Dragnet, Battlestar Galactica, Dallas, etc?
How about computing? I could see the UK/Commonwealth having a stronger native computing environment from having to build their own kit- this should have an economic impact. Sure, the 70's would still be bad, it was globally, but it should not be anywhere near as terrible as OTL.

Given changed circumstances I can actually see Thatcher, monetarism, and the destruction of the UK industrial base being avoided.

hmm given it was down to the Liberals that the Islands joined will this have any impact on their Political leaning....

 

[Ogrebear]

The computing bit - yeah I can see a load of butterflies there. To be honest, you could easily end up with separate "internets" - one driven by US technical standards, and one driven by European technical standards, with some kind of gateway interface between them. I've been doing a lot of reading on Minitel (and Prestel) lately .

if the French had been prepared OTL to open up the standards, then I could see Minitel having spread across Europe and interfacing with Prestel/Teletext in the UK.

ITTL with more French-UK cooperation then I could Minitel spread across the UK and therefore the EEC. It would lead to many, many butterflies with the internet, by the time Tim Bernards Lee invented WWW OTL then ITTL there could already be a World Wide Web.

 

[Devvy]

Are there any more islands left to be looked at for integration? It feels like most of them have been covered by this point. Also if there is a 12 year program for the integrated west indies why couldn't something similar be done for jamaica?

I still flick forwards and backwards about Mauritius, but otherwise I think the only other viable prospects are the other British Overseas Territories or Crown Dependencies. Jamaica is perhaps possible, but it would be hugely expensive. Also, with a population the size of Jamaica, you have the population size to be able to run an effective government if you want to.

What's happening with the Cayman Islands?

cant see them joining too reliant on dodgy off shore funds....

Still a British Dependency at this point; detached from Jamaica as per OTL.

Assuming the National lottery still gets founded along with its transformation of UK sport then you add a lot of Caribbean sprinters the UK will have a strong team. Probably would have been really unfair on the world if Jamaica had also joined

Let's say yes with the National Lottery. It seems cruel to deprive the UK of Mystic Meg on TV.

hmm given it was down to the Liberals that the Islands joined will this have any impact on their Political leaning....

Well there's no SDP for them to merge with here, so the Libs will definitely end up in a different place then OTL.

if the French had been prepared OTL to open up the standards, then I could see Minitel having spread across Europe and interfacing with Prestel/Teletext in the UK.

ITTL with more French-UK cooperation then I could Minitel spread across the UK and therefore the EEC. It would lead to many, many butterflies with the internet, by the time Tim Bernards Lee invented WWW OTL then ITTL there could already be a World Wide Web.

👍

 

[Ogrebear]

A work colleague has told me that the reason Britain does not have a joint football league is that the English Clubs have a lot more cash than Wales, NI or Scottish teams and would dominate. Perhaps ITTL instead of a British Cup there is a cup played for among the Welsh, Scots, NI, West Indies, and Islands (non Caribbean, Malta etc) teams which happens off-set to the FA cup sequence?

Or perhaps ITTL the British Home Championship stays around longer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Home_Championship

 

[Analytical Engine]

Which reminds me, what's going on with Rugby here? Have the Overseas Islands been added to the Five Nations (as it would be called at this point)?

 

[Simon]

Are we likely to see Regional Govt for England instead of a 'national' English Parliament?

[SNIP]​

Would these Regions have Parliaments of their own or just Councils?

One of the problems with the English regions is that the South East really reaches up too far north around London and the East comes too far west. Martin23230 has in past threads made a good argument, based on general geography and current local organisational set-ups, for the creation of a new South Midlands region.

 

[omi]

Lovely to see this being redone. Are we seeing a redo of Amtrak the road to recovery next

This seems to be different way and interesting. I think Jamaica would be a strech to integrate and Trinidad Tobago will want to go it’s own way Guyana + Belize are 50/50. Belize more likely, the other West Indies nations can be done . This world in 2024 will have less Commonwealth realms due to integration. Not sure about Mauritius but Fiji I can see staying

Jamaica and Trinidad will be Commonwealth realms itll 2024

Bermuda and the caymans I can see staying as the offshore tax havens we know and love

Also devolution I can see a Yorkshire assembly and maybe London and Greater Manchester

Noticed the change in BR which standard was used for electricficafion

 

[Simon]

A work colleague has told me that the reason Britain does not have a joint football league is that the English Clubs have a lot more cash than Wales, Northern Ireland or Scottish teams and would dominate.

There's also the factors such as it meaning more teams during international competitions and it allowing them to form a blocking majority in the IFAB.

 

[omi]

There's also the factors such as it meaning more teams during international competitions and it allowing them to form a blocking majority in the IFAB.

There might be a home nations cup !! Separate from the 5 nations or a commonwealth cup

 

[The Oncoming Storm]

Really enjoying this, the idea of what could have happened if Eden hadn’t been smacked off his head on Benzedrine is one I’ve been long interested in. Hopefully NI can avoid the worst of OTL’s Troubles

 

[CultBoy]

Which reminds me, what's going on with Rugby here? Have the Overseas Islands been added to the Five Nations (as it would be called at this point)?

None of the additions so far could fairly compete it would be like putting a under 7s Team against Adults.

No one would gain from it and only sadists would enjoy it. But it could have some interesting butterflies down the line, the West Indies has had a unified Rugby League team in the past......

 

[focus9912]

Callaghan would see the suspension of the Parliament of Northern Ireland, and introduction of direct rule (later replaced by the Northern Irish Assembly) due to the increasing levels of Unionist-Republican rivalry and violence. The escalating crisis saw the introduction of the British Army to the "province" to establish law and order. Wisely, the choice was to send over a large number of the Maltese in the British Army, to work hand in hand with English/Welsh/Scottish troops on the street due to the largely Catholic Maltese soldiers. The Maltese soldiers undermined the Provisional IRA's message as "primary defenders of the Catholic community", and were rapidly used operationally in Catholic & nationalist areas. Whilst a civilian agreement on the future of Northern Ireland governance was difficult to come by, the presence of the British Army in Northern Ireland did at least retain some element of peace in contested areas, and assisted in efforts to transform and modernise the Royal Ulster Constabulary.

Well...

Hopefully NI can avoid the worst of OTL’s Troubles

Agree...perhaps there could be enough changes that by the time the ITTL 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement could be as comprehensive as the IOTL GFA....

Callaghan also introduced several smaller initiatives which survive today. The official name of the country became the "United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland & Overseas Islands". Post codes were introduced to the United Kingdom in the 1970s, after being testing around Norwich, with each area of the United Kingdom - including the overseas regions and many of the remaining dependencies - receiving a post code to help simplify the post system. The first installations of cable television also occurred in the 1970s, with several cities receiving the first licenses to install cable television. However, despite all the forward steps, the United Kingdom was becoming stagnant economically, and being outpaced by the nations of the Common Market. In the Labour party, disagreement between hard-left and soft-left factions came to a head after Callaghan continued to keep Labour within the soft-left policies; many hard-left members left Labour to form the Socialist Party which continues today (*1).

Well Callaghan would still have a very struggling time from the looks of it...

The introduction of Malta, Gibraltar and the Seychelles, as well as the presence of Northern Ireland all with devolved administrations (even though suspended in the case of Northern Ireland) emboldened nationalists in Scotland and Wales, and a Royal Commission on the Constitution - later known as the Devolution Commission - had been created to explore devolution within Great Britain itself under Douglas-Home - but only reported back after Callaghan became Prime Minister. It advocated for further devolution, predominately to Scotland, Wales and the English regions, and was pounced on particularly by Scottish nationalists. After government studies, a 1976 White Paper on the future of Scotland, the result was the Scotland Act 1978 - a key policy of the supporting Liberal party in return for their Parliamentary support. This brought forth the establishment of a Scottish Assembly, along the lines of the Maltese Model (*2) but reflecting Scotland's position within Great Britain - subject to a referendum which would be held in 1979. The referendum passed with a "Yes" vote of almost 60%, with many attributing the success to the successful examples of devolution in Malta as providing a clear example of how it would work. Similar to Malta, elections for the Scottish Assembly would be based on a single transferable vote across multi-member constituencies of 3 seats.

But hey, at least the Scottish devolution is successfully implemented earlier ITTL

Discussions continued over the role of the United Kingdom "East of Suez" indicated a reduction in the British role and presence in the Indian and Pacific oceans, but the situation improved when the Trucial States in the Persian Gulf agreed to opt-in to "dependency status", with the UK continuing to provide primarily defence and foreign relations in return for funding from the states, and basing rights there, although the principal British base in the area would remain at Masirah Island (Oman). This also conveniently provided justification for the Royal Navy presence in Malta and the Seychelles on the route to the Indian Ocean (thereby justifying the indirect economic subsidies from the armed forces), smoothing some debates over large workforce employed in the naval dockyards and related industries.

There will be more British naval activity in the Gulf...actually...if the British stays in the Gulf long enough...could the presence of the British Navy could actually affect the politics of the Gulf countries perhaps

An agreement with Malaysia, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand led to a shrinking of UK forces in the Indo-Pacific region, but the core base at Singapore was saved.

Well...hopefully that's goes well...although, putting military affairs aside, I do wonder if the upcoming Conservative government would still cut tuition subsidy for foreign (non-EEC) students ITTL as well (perhaps it already has a few years earlier thanks to the Overseas Islands integration cost)...one thing for sure, considering there would be not much change...the next (inevitable) Malaysia Prime Minister could probably lead to some interesting dynamics ahead (*cough* Buy British Last *cough*).

The path ahead was clear though; more and more British colonies were becoming independent; Callaghan would soon grant independence to South Yemen...

...presumably in a less messy way, considering only gained independence at least 6 years later than IOTL...

...Botswana...

this seems very interesting...since Botswana diamond mining was only started in 1969 (with the diamonds found just a year after IOTL independence...,perhaps there would be some changes of how does the diamond mines work...but I doubt it...

Retaining Singapore as a base was seen additionally as diplomatically necessary to avoid overly irritating the Americans and damaging a gently recovering "Special Relationship", whilst the US was embroiled in the midst of the Vietnam War,

Not really understand what this means...although I think I missing something very obvious...(part of me thinks that it would have actually the opposite effect...but ehh)

but the eastern half of the British Cypriot bases (Dhekelia) was to be handed back to Cypriot authorities with Britain only retaining the western base (Akrotiri), as part of British cost-saving efforts. Classified until later years, it also turned out that the US would part-fund the Akrotiri base in order to use an over-the-horizon radar to monitor Soviet air movements.

That's how you properly build a special relationship...

The whole film & television market is likely going to happen anyway - it's the same language (more or less!), and so stuff is going to easily hop back and forth across the Atlantic.

It would be interesting to see the broadcasting service in the Caribbean works ITTL...since some already had their own independent public service by this point IOTL, whether they would be absorbed to the BBC, or perhaps there would be their own arrangement...

Well there's no SDP for them to merge with here, so the Libs will definitely end up in a different place then OTL.
👍

Well, considering the nature of the Caribbean politics, I think there would be more parties represented in Westminster....

As for England devolution, just as Malta shows the way for Scotland, I can see West Indies could show the way for England....

 

[Devvy]

A work colleague has told me that the reason Britain does not have a joint football league is that the English Clubs have a lot more cash than Wales, NI or Scottish teams and would dominate. Perhaps ITTL instead of a British Cup there is a cup played for among the Welsh, Scots, NI, West Indies, and Islands (non Caribbean, Malta etc) teams which happens off-set to the FA cup sequence?

Or perhaps ITTL the British Home Championship stays around longer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Home_Championship

The simple answer is that we have separate league systems as they largely predate modern sport - the English football league system dates from 1888. And once it was in place, it wasn't getting changed easily, and there's not been any real requirement to merge the leagues. There's some scope for butterflies though, so hold your thoughts there, there's stuff on thh way

Which reminds me, what's going on with Rugby here? Have the Overseas Islands been added to the Five Nations (as it would be called at this point)?

Probably nothing - neither form of Rugby is particularly popular outside of the "Home Islands".

One of the problems with the English regions is that the South East really reaches up too far north around London and the East comes too far west. Martin23230 has in past threads made a good argument, based on general geography and current local organisational set-ups, for the creation of a new South Midlands region.

View attachment 897469​

Agree, I've also long thought a South Midlands is a necessity.

Lovely to see this being redone. Are we seeing a redo of Amtrak the road to recovery next

This seems to be different way and interesting. I think Jamaica would be a strech to integrate and Trinidad Tobago will want to go it’s own way Guyana + Belize are 50/50. Belize more likely, the other West Indies nations can be done . This world in 2024 will have less Commonwealth realms due to integration. Not sure about Mauritius but Fiji I can see staying

Jamaica and Trinidad will be Commonwealth realms itll 2024

Bermuda and the caymans I can see staying as the offshore tax havens we know and love

Also devolution I can see a Yorkshire assembly and maybe London and Greater Manchester

Noticed the change in BR which standard was used for electricficafion

For Amtrak, probably won't revisit that. I start one a while ago, but because of the nature of railways...railroads in the USA, it rapidly morphed in to what became the Milwaukee Road TL a couple of years back (hence it having a dose of Amtrak towards the end of it).

There's also the factors such as it meaning more teams during international competitions and it allowing them to form a blocking majority in the IFAB.

The Home Nations (Eng, Sco, Wal, NI) can veto FIFA at IFAB anyway - FIFA needs two home nations to back it's proposals to change the rules, and rules can't be changed without FIFA's backing.

There might be a home nations cup !! Separate from the 5 nations or a commonwealth cup

There's some scope for this in future

Really enjoying this, the idea of what could have happened if Eden hadn’t been smacked off his head on Benzedrine is one I’ve been long interested in. Hopefully NI can avoid the worst of OTL’s Troubles

Well...

Agree...perhaps there could be enough changes that by the time the ITTL 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement could be as comprehensive as the IOTL GFA....

Well Callaghan would still have a very struggling time from the looks of it...

But hey, at least the Scottish devolution is successfully implemented earlier ITTL

Just to lump these two parts together. My vision for NI so far in this TL is that obviously the Unionist-Republican divide is huge, and there'll be the usual massive dose of anti-catholic in NI by the protestant majority. There's still militia violence between the two camps. However, the introduction of the British Army, by being balanced between GB Protestant soldiers and Maltese Catholic soldiers means that the Army hasn't enflamed things - there's no Bloody Sunday here, so the Army is a little more of the peacekeeper type rather than making things worse. Which means that hopefully NI can be put on the right course a little earlier in the late 1980s - hopefully Sunningdale doesn't have to wait too much here.

None of the additions so far could fairly compete it would be like putting a under 7s Team against Adults.

No one would gain from it and only sadists would enjoy it. But it could have some interesting butterflies down the line, the West Indies has had a unified Rugby League team in the past......

👍

<snippy snip>

It's not going to have been easy for Callaghan, but he's lasted the course, put Scotland on the road to devolution and the West Indies on the road to integration. The last 15 years or so in the UK has seen the country lurching from Labour to Conservative and back, but a bit more stability soon....

Decolonisation continues, but as you say the continued East of Suez will have butterflies - the Middle East will likely look very different as Britain is less tainted by no Suez involvment, a closer relationship with Jordan, Oman, Trucial States etc. Just the fact that Jordan still has the West Bank and Jerusalem brings a ton of butterflies, as one of the largest modern flash points in Middle East diplomacy is substantially reduced (Israeli administration of the West Bank & Jerusalem).

 

[Belschaft]

So there appears to be three models of British decolonisation here:

Independence: for larger nations which are fully capable of assuming responsability for their own defence, such as India, Burma, the East African Federation, Jamaica, etc. Some of these (such as Jamaica) would have preffered Integration if it was on offer.

Protectorate/Dependency: for nations which want the British to stay involved in a (very) limited capacity but are independent in everything but their defence. A very informal situation and legally they are fully independent but have an individual treaty arrangement with the UK relating to military basing - the Trucial States, Singapore, Malaysia, Cyprus. The level of British involvement varies.

Integration: for very small colonies which aren't large enough to fully manage their own affairs and instead want to join the UK. Not open to everyone as Britain won't consider this as an option for colonies with too large a population - Malta, Gibraltar, the Seychelles and the British West Indies so far.

The question is how will the very, very small colonies be dealt with? Several of the OTL British Overseas Territories have been integrated so far, but some like the Falklands have populations so small that the ITL model of giving them an MP and local rule wouldn't really work. The only possabilities I see are to either leave them as BOT's without parlimentary representation or to group them into a single consitutency as "British Atlantic Islands" including the Falklands, St Helena, South Georgia,

 

[Devvy]

So there appears to be three models of British decolonisation here:

Independence: for larger nations which are fully capable of assuming responsibility for their own defence, such as India, Burma, the East African Federation, Jamaica, etc. Some of these (such as Jamaica) would have preferred Integration if it was on offer.

Protectorate/Dependency: for nations which want the British to stay involved in a (very) limited capacity but are independent in everything but their defence. A very informal situation and legally they are fully independent but have an individual treaty arrangement with the UK relating to military basing - the Trucial States, Singapore, Malaysia, Cyprus. The level of British involvement varies.

Integration: for very small colonies which aren't large enough to fully manage their own affairs and instead want to join the UK. Not open to everyone as Britain won't consider this as an option for colonies with too large a population - Malta, Gibraltar, the Seychelles and the British West Indies so far.

The question is how will the very, very small colonies be dealt with? Several of the OTL British Overseas Territories have been integrated so far, but some like the Falklands have populations so small that the ITL model of giving them an MP and local rule wouldn't really work. The only possibilities' I see are to either leave them as BOT's without parliamentary representation or to group them into a single constituency as "British Atlantic Islands" including the Falklands, St Helena, South Georgia,

....and back from Easter holidays.

Broadly speaking, you're correct. The first two are broadly speaking the same as OTL; the big difference is the third option (integration) being available for some places. I can't see any territory not on an island being welcomed in to the UK.

Independence: Sought and granted to anyone who asks, but predominately those are the larger (1 million+) countries can viably handle their own affairs.
Protectorate/Dependency: For those small & mid size territories who want the autonomy and soft-independence, but without the requirements for a large military - often countries where either there are local issues in progressing the country towards independence (ie. Fiji), or external factors which push the country towards retaining the link (Belize). For what it's worth, although the end result is the same, my view is that a protectorate is technically sovereign and has some kind of agreement between the two for the UK to act as defence and international relations (ie. Trucial States), and a dependency is where the UK still acts as technically sovereign over the territory (ie. former colony).
Integration: Available for those who really want it, subject to not being too much of a drag on the UK. Realistically this means smaller islands, with small populations, ideally with some kind of strategic advantage for the UK. Mainland territories probably unlikely, due to issue with policing borders etc, see: Ceuta & Melilla.

As you say, there are some places which I think will end up having to continue as Dependencies as they are just too small. The South Atlantic islands are mostly so small population wise I'm not even sure they'd really have the capability to act as an integrated part of the UK; there wouldn't be the means to implement UK law and the rest of the integration requirements. Falklands are perhaps the only exception as one of the larger populations who are about to leap to fame in Westminster itself. The rest have no other option apart from dependency status - which is basically identical to overseas territory status in OTL. Tristan Da Cunha doesn't even have an airport, I don't know how you'd even attempt to offer that place UK integration.