TL: UK Overseas Regions [Redux]

Well it's no spoiler considering the original version, so here's a rundown:
Malta - requested integration in OTL, discussions were serious from both sides about it, but fell apart over referendum boycott and MoD wind down in the Med.
Gibraltar - had a political party which ruled 1969 -1972 in Gib, linky
Seychelles - James Mancham apparently requested independence and pursued in in the late 1960s, but was rebuffed like GIbraltar. Hansard - search for "integration" on the page to find the relevant parts.
West Indies - more difficult to tie down, but lots of remaining Overseas Territories or remaining Commonwealth Realms. Tiny populations, small islands - not too difficult to bring in, especially as lots of Windies people have migrated to the UK anyway OTL, and lots of family relationships.
Falklands - (post Falklands) - "more British then British", along with the other South Atlantic islands.
Belize - I think they more want independence, but scared of Guatemala, but also the mainland situation will worry those concerned about a de facto open border and illegal migration.
Channel Islands & IoM - not sure. OTL there's no desire, as they de facto have all the important advantages of UK integration (broadcasting, mail, little/no customs, Common Travel Area, full UK citizenship) with non of the drawbacks (they don't pay UK taxes, don't elect MPs to Westminster, don't deal with the Westminster clown show, etc etc).

The only other places:
Fiji - apparently explored integration with UK as a way of allowing full democracy without the Fijians being dominated by Indo-Fijians (I think I've got that right). Can't see this happening - it's just too far away.
Singapore - can't see this happening, it's too many people for the UK to swallow, and the UK has already demonstrated in WW2 it can't defend the place.
Hong Kong - would work theoretically if the lease was permanent, but realistically this can't work in OTL if the lease is up in 1997. There's no way for the UK to force China to the table to renegotiate it either.


Link to the original.

:)


There'll be some differences - as noted, I think the way I had Suez play out in the original was little to no Suez Affair, and everything continued roughly OTL in foreign affairs. That's one thing that I've rewritten - the Anglo-French relationship is far stronger as a result here; Eden hasn't been annihilated by Suez like OTL, but he's had his fingers burned by the USA, and is happy to keep the Americans at arms length and grow closer to the French.






Exactly as you all say - as soon as Malta joins, it provides not just a precedent on integration, but a template and model on how to accomplish it, it's pretty open to negotiations and discussions for most places.[/spoiler]
The most practical target for integration in the 1950s is the South Atlantic region (Falklands, Saint Helena, etc.), which could have been done with a much more lengthy time period for bringing about economic equality. Given the strategic importance of the South Atlantic in the Cold War and the very small population, this could be sold to Parliament. Likewise with Bermuda and, to stick it to Washington, the Bahamas. Given its history in later years, I would say Barbados would be a practical addition, but its later stable and democratic history could not be predicted. Possibly also Trinidad. Jamaica would be a disaster. Going back to the late 1940s, I've always wondered that, if the Conservatives had been in power, an offer might have been made to the Dominion of Newfoundland and Labrador to integrate into the UK, thus vastly increasing the UK's territorial size and its potential natural resources (and its clout in NATO). But Canada would have vigorously opposed this, and Cold War unity would have been threatened. Maybe Labrador would end up part of Quebec -- and Newfoundland Island part of the UK. Unfortunately, Britain did not have the development money to invest in the late 1940s in Newfoundland to bring it up to par with the UK standard of living. And the North Atlantic no longer had the strategic importance it had developed during the battle of the Atlantic.
 
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Devvy

Donor
It would be nice to see the Queen send some of the Royals out to govern in places like Guaina or NZ as Governors to help tie the countries and family closer together.

If not as Governors then perhaps just sending Royals to live out in the Commonwealth, not just visiting so the ruling family is not as distant as Britain is for so many of the people.

The Falklands might make a good posting for Andrew perhaps? :)
It's perhaps an ever so slightly tighter Commonwealth, but I don't think it's massively different. I don't think the core CANZUKAUS group of 4 were really dented by Suez; I think the only real impact of Suez was the UK image of itself, and the UK image in the Arab countries. The latter will certainly have effects in this ATL, as the UK will retain a little more influence, perhaps enough to keep Jordan "participating neutrally" in the 1967 war - "we're taking part! we're shelling Israel....where we agreed with Israel not to put anything valuable". That alone has huge consequences in keeping the West Bank and Jerusalem Jordanian, but has consequences for Jordan in making the nation perhaps more Palestinian then it otherwise would be.

The rotating governors - well the Governor General is at the request of the individual country, so depends if the realms want to invite a member of royalty to be the GG for a stint or two. Possible probably, but bear this in mind; Andrew was born after the PoD. Charles and Anne definitely exist; I haven't really considered yet what to do about Andrew & Edward yet. Nothing massive changes as Charles is around though.

with the shipyards I’d try to keep Yarrow, Vickers, Harland & Wolff and maybe Cammell Laird as the big ones and centralise all the smaller operations under them as well as try to get them to modernise.

Aircraft is Harder though one thing my uncle always said was that Hawkers Siddeley and de Havilland was horribly under used and in desperate need of more support same for british engine manufacturers.

Duly noted!

Will the Seychelles and Mauritius be absorbed into the UK at some point?

Seychelles, yes. Definitely chased integration, small population, island country in strategic area, and largely English in official settings (ie. business and governance) even if the home language is more French creole.
Mauritius, probably not. Apparently enquired over integration early on, before going for independence. But it's much larger - probably 3 times the size of Malta even then, with a far more mixed English-French language, and if Seychelles joins, there's no military advantage in Mauritius joining. However, to be honest, I've still been flip flopping over it still.

To be honest...while I feel like ITTL, even if the British would have decided to stay when Sheikh Zayed ask like in OTL (so probably the Trucial States would have a similar arrangement as OTL Brunei between 1971-1984), I feel like outside circumstances that would probably still happens (Yom Kippur War and the subsequent Oil Crisis, and in particular the Islamic Revolution) could actually pressure the Trucial States to ask for independence anyway...since even just having protectorate status could be perceived as the British having too much interference...
TLDR: I expect ITTL, the Trucial states will have a similar arrangement to OTL Brunei...(i.e.: still hold protectorate status but would eventually still gain its independence in the 1980s)

P/s: Perhaps the butterfly flapping around is enough that if independence would still eventually happen, Qatar and Bahrain could be integrated with the rest of the UAE ITTL...

Edit: Is the unraveling of the sterling area as OTL as well... I was wondering about that while (re)watching a video about Singapore reserve currency diversification that occur during the devaluation of the pound...
Are you monitoring my thought patterns? XD
The unravelling of the sterling area I think is at least partly going to happen anyway. One thing which struck me is whether the Trucial States might be pushed to sell oil on the world stage in pound sterling as part of an ongoing defence deal, which might help prop it up. Not sure on that, it's a topic of reading for me.

I think that ITTL some of the world events should not happen due to no Suez, the British-French relationship, the Commonwealth being closer, Anglo-American distancing, etc. Sure the US and USSR are practising dollar diplomacy which will have an effect on British influence and sterling, but a lot of the events of OTL are rolls of the dice that can go very differently ITTL due to said changed circumstances.
The major thing I'd point out here, is that Suez still happened in this ATL - it was a French-Israeli operation (Israel would have invaded regardless it seems), it's just that Britain didn't participate as Eden correctly understood the US view and threat to the UK if they did so, so stayed out - but equally had it illustrated that the US wouldn't back the UK when the UK wanted it. Hence the fallout of UK-US, the growth of UK-France as UK looks for a new partner. But in terms of world politics, it'll be different but recognisable.

The most practical target for integration in the 1950s is the South Atlantic region (Falklands, Saint Helena, etc.), which could have been done with a much more lengthy time period for bringing about economic equality. Given the strategic importance of the South Atlantic in the Cold War and the very small population, this could be sold to Parliament. Likewise with Bermuda and, to stick it to Washington, the Bahamas. Given its history in later years, I would say Barbados would be a practical addition, but its later stable and democratic history could not be predicted. Possibly also Trinidad. Jamaica would be a disaster. Going back to the late 1940s, I've always wondered that, if the Conservatives had been in power, an offer might have been made to the Dominion of Newfoundland and Labrador to integrate into the UK, thus vastly increasing the UK's territorial size and its potential natural resources (and its clout in NATO). But Canada would have vigorously opposed this, and Cold War unity would have been threatened. Maybe Newfoundland would end up part of Quebec -- and Newfoundland part of the UK. Unfortunately, Britain did not have the development money to invest in the late 1940s in Newfoundland to bring it up to par with the UK standard of living. And the North Atlantic no longer had the strategic importance it had developed during the battle of the Atlantic.
A lot of this I agree with; the main thing to note about the South Atlantic is that before the Falklands War, the UK was pretty open to flipping off the Falklands to some kind of joint sovereignty or more - but the invasion obviously junked all this and trashed the entire principle of it, cementing the UK'ness of the place.

As you say, I think Newfoundland would have been interesting, but to be honest if the UK had integrated it back then, it's a whole different universe given it would require WW2 to end nicer for the UK (for it to be not as bankrupt as OTL), and if that happens the entire shape of the modern world is different.

How much would this increase the Anglophone population of Quebec?
No idea, but maybe not that much given the rugged and difficult terrain. NF is never going to be highly populated or attract major immigration. Canada was almost definitely the best option for NF in the long run.
 
Are you monitoring my thought patterns? XD
The unravelling of the sterling area I think is at least partly going to happen anyway. One thing which struck me is whether the Trucial States might be pushed to sell oil on the world stage in pound sterling as part of an ongoing defence deal, which might help prop it up. Not sure on that, it's a topic of reading for me.
Nah...it just me putting the Malaysian (&Brunei and Singapore) context to make sure I get the sense of the content...
In the case of the Trucial states....I was thinking of the fact that Brunei (unfortunately in hindsight) just suddenly gained independence just 13 years after the aforementioned protectorate agreement (then again part of the reason Brunei gained its independence is because IIRC the royal are frustrated about the fact that the British is still the only one that could manage the royal family massive finances, which I do not think apply to the Arabs...)....Edit: If Qatar and Bahrain is managed to put in the union....I would not be surprised if the ensuing power dynamics meant that the presidency and the prime ministership had to be rotated among the royal family in a similar way it is done in Malaysia.

As for the Sterling area... Malaysia was in a currency union with Singapore and Brunei until 1974...and after that the Malaysian Ringgit and the Singapore (&Brunei) Dollar value diverged significantly then...the recent video series (albeit made by the Singapore state media, for some shady nudging reasons ) is a good explainer of the way the massive Singapore reserves is managed.
 
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perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
So does the UK get less blame for the botched Hungarian uprising, from the USA, not getting so involved in the "big distraction"?
 
Chapter 4: Douglas-Home

Devvy

Donor
Alec Douglas-Home
Conservative Premiership, 1968-1973, won election 1968

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Douglas-Home & Nixon relations were largely defined as "Friends can disagree with each other".

Douglas-Home, the accidental Prime Minister as some have labelled him, came to power as a compromise between candidates for the Conservative leadership, and wound up winning the 1968 election (*1). He assumed leadership over a rapidly transforming country - both from post war economic boom to economic malaise, as well as a social change from a stiff traditional structure to a modern reinvented Britain. A committed European, his attitude in many areas was the opposite of Gaitskell, but equally found common ground in many areas. On metrication in particular, despite calls from many to relax the commitment to switch systems, Douglas-Home let the programme rumble on regardless as it represented a key opportunity to standardise with the Europeans. Recognising he did not have a governing majority to back a full accession to the European Economic Community, Douglas-Home continued to pursue soft integration - standardising on things to simplify trade and encourage further links (*2).

Domestic actions were about to be sidelined by integration talks, however. The sovereignty dispute between the UK and Spain over Gibraltar had continued to rumble on, and gently escalate throughout the 1950s and 1960s with Spain continuing to make the the border difficult in a gradual tightening. This led to a counter-reaction from Gibraltarians, who despite UK politicians making clear that Malta was a sui generis case, saw a large upswing in support for UK integration on the so-called "Maltese Model", culminating in the 1967 referendum. The Chief Minister of Gibraltar, Robert Peliza, sought to emulate Malta and rapidly sought negotiations over integration of Gibraltar in to the United Kingdom on the back of the referendum result. In later years, Franco was said to have gone ballistic when he found out, but was unable to do much about it other then trigger a conflict with the UK - and then by extension with NATO, given Gibraltar's position in Europe, within NATO's geographical scope. Franco was left to diplomatically protest, fully closing the border between Spain and Gibraltar, as well as refuse air space permission for planes to/from Gibraltar airport - which simply redirected over Portugal or France instead en route to Great Britain, adding some time but eliminating any air space issues. The problem with this was that it merely hardened the attitude in Gibraltar towards British integration, seeing it as protection from Spain. Some Spaniards questioned the Treaty of Utrecht, which had granted Gibraltar to Britain, but it merely noted that Gibraltar was ceded by Spain "to the Crown of Great Britain" (preceding union between Great Britain and Ireland); Gibraltar would still be under the same crown, just in a different constitutional capacity.

The small population in Gibraltar - about 26,000 in 1965 - made negotiations between the United Kingdom and Gibraltar far easier then they had been with Malta, along with the important location guarding the entry to the Mediterranean. Despite all the legislation and statements of previous governmental statements about the uniqueness of a Maltese integration to the United Kingdom, the small and largely British-apparent population likely eased the political hurdles to integration of "the Rock", and full integration would be rapidly completed. This would introduce almost the smallest constituency to the British Parliament, a single Gibraltarian seat - the only smaller seat being what was then called the "Western Isles" (in Scotland).

The move, beyond that of the "unique position of Malta" began a series of dominoes, however, which would see major ramifications for the United Kingdom. Sir James Mancham in Seychelles, joined a constitutional conference over the future of the small islands in the Indian Ocean, with a desire for integration. In some ways, this freed up a quandary for the British military; ideas had been floated about creating a military base, in remote islands of the Mauritius as a stand in for RAF Gan given that Mauritius was chasing independence and Britain was more than happy to let the colony go. However, if the Seychelles were to become part of the United Kingdom, then the politics became far easier as the islands would be directly subordinate to Westminster law, whilst also providing a remote base for the far, far end of the Suez Canal to secure shipping routes and defend the new UK territory. Aldabra and/or Assumption Island were the targets, but environmental & political pressure led to plans to be scaled back to solely Assumption Island. The use of Assumption Island became included in the integration agreements for the Seychelles, and was duly voted through Mancham's Seychellois Government in 1971, and duly backed by the British government later in 1972. Despite the economic status of the Seychelles, Westminster voted to likewise accept the terms of integration, largely on the small population (circa 50,000 - again with only a single MP), defence policy requirements for an Indian Ocean base of operations and enthusiastic proposal from Sir James Mancham. The line of Gibraltar-Malta-Seychelles allowed a continued British presence and force projection right through the Mediterranean, Suez Canal and Red Sea - and were coupled by remaining British military bases in Cyprus at the eastern end of the Mediterranean. This all helped enforce freedom of navigation for British merchant shipping through what was once called the Highway to India, as well as for defence reasons with the British-protected Trucial States also opting to continue with British protection (*3). The ability to act militarily was rapidly put to test with military confrontation in the Middle East between Arab states and Israel; British diplomacy helped minimise the conflict (*4), but the actions of the Egyptians largely put a rapid end to Suez shipping by scuttling ships in the canal and other blockages causing further issues in the British economy, which relied on the Suez Canal for over a quarter of it's oil imports (and approximately 40% of French oil imports).

Following the integration of Gibraltar and Seychelles - both of which were again allowed to continue printing local money, technically promissory notes, by their central banks as a "local" pound sterling, drew attention from Welsh nationalists as the only home nation outside England which did not have it's own issue of banknotes. A rudimentary attempt in 1969 was made by the "Chief Treasury of Wales", but with the Board of Trade unhappy about the use of the word "Treasury" (indicating an official governmental department backing), it did not last long. 1972 saw a second attempt, under a more clinical names of the "Bank of Wales" (or Banc Cymru in Welsh) (*5). However, the more integrated England-Wales economy, then between other Home Nations - and growing following the opening of the Severn Bridge in the mid-1960s, led to unease about allowing what were effectively promissory notes to be circulating in England where they had no legal status. The sterling tweak of 1972 was a half-way house - permitting the continued printing of pound sterling by regional banks, but backed by an equivalent amount of pound sterling banked at the Bank of England - the British central bank. Regional banks would be permitted to transform their banknotes from local "customary" promissory notes to full legal tender, valid across the UK, by adopting a common design taking up approximately a third of the end of the note, with a common size and shape. The rest of the note would be allowed for individual design. The banknote common design area featured the declarations of the note value, currency name, official phrasings and some anti-counterfeiting technology, whilst coins would be distributed only by the Bank of England nationwide across the entire United Kingdom (*6). The Bank of Wales immediately agreed to these conditions, as did almost all the remaining UK regional banks over the following years, allowing a large array of bank notes to circulate around entire United Kingdom as legal tender; British entities outside the United Kingdom such as the Crown Dependencies had to continue to maintain their peg to pound sterling at their own cost and risk however as a one-way currency union.

One of the Douglas-Home's later works at Prime Minister were the guidelines for any future territory seeking UK integration. Formed in the aftermath of a foreign policy speech regarding criticism of the UK integration of Malta and the Seychelles as "new colonialism", Douglas-Home refuted the accusation. "Colonies are subject to the exploitative rule of external nations. Malta is no colony, the Seychelles are no colony, just as Northern Ireland or Yorkshire are not colonies; all are full parts of the United Kingdom, and part of the democratic process. If Malta makes clear her desire for integration in to the UK with elections and a referendum, who is anyone to tell them they are democratically wrong and a colony once more?" On the back of this, Douglas-Home put forth that any future territories wishing for integration should not upset the demographics of the home islands, should be "culturally compatible" and should not be a significant financial burden. This was a balancing act; he knew that the United Kingdom wouldn't affect any massive changes to the electoral power of the home nations, whilst several overseas territories were complaining that the UK was "allowing the whiter colonies in, and ignoring the black colonies". In light of this, following the disintegration of the West Indies Federation, several eastern Caribbean islands formed the "West Indies Associated Islands", with an unofficial agreement to modernisation and desired eventual UK integration due to their tiny island populations.

-------------------------
Notes:
Malta, Gibraltar and Seychelles have all integrated in to the UK. The UK has accepted all three due to a) smallish populations (Gibraltar and Seychelles especially), and b) defence policy. All three have had serious integration proposals in OTL around this time. The addition of these three territories means a) the UK military has a far wider scope to defend UK home territory, and so needs further investment, and b) the significant military installations at each serve as a significant economic subsidy to each of the regions. No Suez has meant that Britain didn't get the economic punch it got in OTL, and still sees itself as the powerful, liberal and democratic mother nation of the world; why couldn't you allow a few small territories to integrate to further the British interest?

(*1) The original version had something like18 years of continuous Labour rule from the early 1960s to mid 1970s - this is something which is incredibly unlikely in a period of economic stagnation. I think far more likely is a flipping from one party to the other as both sides struggle to deal with the sagging economy.
(*2) I don't think Douglas-Home, even in this TL, will have the Parliamentary numbers to seriously discuss with the EEC about accession. Alignment and soft integration will be as far as it gets.
(*3) Trucial States continuing as, well, Trucial States, the British Protectorates of the Persian Gulf.
(*4) European, or Franco-British, diplomacy here I would see as the French talking to the Israelis, and the British talking to the Arabs (considering they haven't discredited themselves completely with Suez). I'd like to think the biggest impact here would be the Brits managing to oil the wheels so that when Jordan shells Israel, Israel knows where they are shelling and keeps out of the way, so that Jordan isn't really participating. Impact here is that the West Bank and Jerusalem stays Jordanian, which opens a whole slew of consequences in the Middle East.
(*5) This roughly happened in OTL (see here); the difference now is that the extra overseas UK regions, each printing their own money has led to a more concentrated approach to Welsh bank notes.
(*6) However, considering the mess that is OTL UK bank notes, and this being increased with yet more regional bank notes, I think some kind of standardisation from the OTL "it just works enough" system is inevitable. A common design on maybe the left third of the note, with some security features such as intricate UK coat of arms or something (I don't think the Queen would appear in this area due to NI sensitivities, although the BoE would almost certainly print the Queen on their individual design area).
 
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Devvy

Donor
Nah...it just me putting the Malaysian (&Brunei and Singapore) context to make sure I get the sense of the content...
In the case of the Trucial states....I was thinking of the fact that Brunei (unfortunately in hindsight) just suddenly gained independence just 13 years after the aforementioned protectorate agreement (then again part of the reason Brunei gained its independence is because IIRC the royal are frustrated about the fact that the British is still the only one that could manage the royal family massive finances, which I do not think apply to the Arabs...)....Edit: If Qatar and Bahrain is managed to put in the union....I would not be surprised if the ensuing power dynamics meant that the presidency and the prime ministership had to be rotated among the royal family in a similar way it is done in Malaysia.

As for the Sterling area... Malaysia was in a currency union with Singapore and Brunei until 1974...and after that the Malaysian Ringgit and the Singapore (&Brunei) Dollar value diverged significantly then...the recent video series (albeit made by the Singapore state media, for some shady nudging reasons ) is a good explainer of the way the massive Singapore reserves is managed.
XD
I think with the UK not withdrawing from East of Suez in quite such a chaotic hurry, I think there's a chance for the UK to try and keep Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei in closer relations. I still think Singapore will be booted out of Malaysia as per OTL, but maybe some kind of mini EEC or EFTA area between the three, with UK, Aus and NZ as the defence guarantors? Shared currency, and retain "reasonably" open borders - Singapore's open door policy notwithstanding. Don't know, I've not decided to be honest, just thoughts flowing.

So does the UK get less blame for the botched Hungarian uprising, from the USA, not getting so involved in the "big distraction"?
Probably correct. But even so, even with absolutely no distractions in the Middle East - what could happen differently? The Soviet Union is going to stamp down on Hungary and any opposition to it's rule. What is the West going to do about it? Absolutely nothing apart from talk. There's nothing they can do bar starting World War III. So while there might be a bit less blame for the UK, I can't see much changing there.

Are any Pacific islands scheduled for potential integration?
I don't think so. There's no real advantages for them in terms of UK integration - but I think there's an increased chance of continued territory/dependency status for some. I know Fiji enquired after UK integration, but I just can't see any real advantages to it for Fiji or the UK really, and even less so for the outer Pacific islands in Polynesia and Micronesia.
 
(*2) I don't think Douglas-Home, even in this TL, will have the Parliamentary numbers to seriously discuss with the EEC about accession. Alignment and soft integration will be as far as it gets.
Integration via the back door... worked well in OTL

I wonder who will be Gordon Brown of this TL, signing the Lisbon treaty once the media have gone home🤣
 
This story gets better and better. I know it's probably too late to think about Mauritius (its later success as a democracy with rising living standards and a relatively corruption free economy could not easily have been predicted), but I can't help thinking what a good long-range UK bomber base Mauritius' second island, Rodrigues, could have provided.
 

Devvy

Donor
How much can we say that the UK is maintaining its Third Empire here?
Yes and no. The "Second Empire", to use your terminology, is well gone, but the remainder will be the economic relationships with the new nations. That's drying up, as new trade relationships become established, or are blockaded (South Africa, Rhodesia), but equally as UK trade globalises (rather than being so Commonwealth heavy) then Suez is just as important. Maybe even more so, considering the amount of oil coming in from the region. There will be a bunch of areas which will remain close to the UK - the Malaysia/Singapore/Brunei will remain close, Nigeria (sorry Biafra), Caribbean, and Australia & New Zealand will always remain close family. But the days of

Integration via the back door... worked well in OTL

I wonder who will be Gordon Brown of this TL, signing the Lisbon treaty once the media have gone home🤣
I'd see it as "preparing for a future integration"! The Parliamentary old school with history in the Empire are rapidly leaving, to be replaced with a bunch of MPs who think that the Commonwealth doesn't have much to offer. The UK is heading to Europe, Gaitskell has already found that there is no magic money to be found in the Commonwealth to aid the UK economy.

This story gets better and better. I know it's probably too late to think about Mauritius (its later success as a democracy with rising living standards and a relatively corruption free economy could not easily have been predicted), but I can't help thinking what a good long-range UK bomber base Mauritius' second island, Rodrigues, could have provided.
Thank you for the kind comment! :)

Mauritius....I had a long good old think about. I think it could have ended up in the UK, but it probably required an even earlier PoD to get things in motion for them. It's a big country (850k people in mid 1970s), so it would have been considered a massive economic drain on the UK at a time when the UK is struggling to transform it's economy. Even in the mid 1970s, Malta+Gibraltar+Seychelles is only around 420,000 people - around half of Mauritius by itself.
 
I'd see it as "preparing for a future integration"! The Parliamentary old school with history in the Empire are rapidly leaving, to be replaced with a bunch of MPs who think that the Commonwealth doesn't have much to offer. The UK is heading to Europe, Gaitskell has already found that there is no magic money to be found in the Commonwealth to aid the UK economy.
As I said that worked great in OTL 😁

Don't need any of those pesky commoners - Er I mean valued electorate getting in the way!

They will be absorbed into europe and by jove they will like it!
 
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Yes and no. The "Second Empire", to use your terminology, is well gone, but the remainder will be the economic relationships with the new nations. That's drying up, as new trade relationships become established, or are blockaded (South Africa, Rhodesia), but equally as UK trade globalises (rather than being so Commonwealth heavy) then Suez is just as important. Maybe even more so, considering the amount of oil coming in from the region. There will be a bunch of areas which will remain close to the UK - the Malaysia/Singapore/Brunei will remain close, Nigeria (sorry Biafra), Caribbean, and Australia & New Zealand will always remain close family. But the days of


I'd see it as "preparing for a future integration"! The Parliamentary old school with history in the Empire are rapidly leaving, to be replaced with a bunch of MPs who think that the Commonwealth doesn't have much to offer. The UK is heading to Europe, Gaitskell has already found that there is no magic money to be found in the Commonwealth to aid the UK economy.


Thank you for the kind comment! :)

Mauritius....I had a long good old think about. I think it could have ended up in the UK, but it probably required an even earlier PoD to get things in motion for them. It's a big country (850k people in mid 1970s), so it would have been considered a massive economic drain on the UK at a time when the UK is struggling to transform it's economy. Even in the mid 1970s, Malta+Gibraltar+Seychelles is only around 420,000 people - around half of Mauritius by itself.
Re Mauritius: you're right. It would have taken an earlier POD that left Britain in much better shape financially after the war. It would also have taken a vision like the French later developed of offering isolated colonies a mixture of home rule, parliamentary representation and generous development help. But when and why would the British have developed this in the immediate postwar period except in the case of heroic Malta? A British writer Michael Malim went to Mauritius after the war; he and his wife spent a year there supposedly so he could study the "customs." The result was a book that is sort of a travel classic, Island of the Swan (1952). I liked the book but always figured Malim was there for MI-6 to check on possible Soviet influence in nationalist circles. Malim's book gives no hint of Mauritius' potential beyond raising sugar, which would not be easy to spot until after independence and the evolution of a society in which the descendants of former slaves from Africa and former contract laborers from India demonstrated the ability to work together within a stable democratic framework.
 
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XD
I think with the UK not withdrawing from East of Suez in quite such a chaotic hurry, I think there's a chance for the UK to try and keep Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei in closer relations. I still think Singapore will be booted out of Malaysia as per OTL, but maybe some kind of mini EEC or EFTA area between the three, with UK, Aus and NZ as the defence guarantors? Shared currency, and retain "reasonably" open borders - Singapore's open door policy notwithstanding. Don't know, I've not decided to be honest, just thoughts flowing.


Probably correct. But even so, even with absolutely no distractions in the Middle East - what could happen differently? The Soviet Union is going to stamp down on Hungary and any opposition to it's rule. What is the West going to do about it? Absolutely nothing apart from talk. There's nothing they can do bar starting World War III. So while there might be a bit less blame for the UK, I can't see much changing there.


I don't think so. There's no real advantages for them in terms of UK integration - but I think there's an increased chance of continued territory/dependency status for some. I know Fiji enquired after UK integration, but I just can't see any real advantages to it for Fiji or the UK really, and even less so for the outer Pacific islands in Polynesia and Micronesia.
hmm pity Pitcairn would certainly be hilarious as the smallest Parliamentary seat.....
 
I think with the UK not withdrawing from East of Suez in quite such a chaotic hurry, I think there's a chance for the UK to try and keep Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei in closer relations. I still think Singapore will be booted out of Malaysia as per OTL, but maybe some kind of mini EEC or EFTA area between the three, with UK, Aus and NZ as the defence guarantors? Shared currency,
Yeah...I think I type it in a way that wrongly implied something (but I don't know what it is...)...but considering the massive differing opinion of all three governments in terms of economic policy (there is a reason while they are separate)... I think it would the fate of those countries would be like IOTL, as there would be absolutely no common currency between Malaysia and Singapore, if there are any proposal for future FTA...it would probably be a more along the lines of a broader in scope agreement between the members of the (newly formed by this point) ASEAN rather than those 3 countries alone...
as for defence...well I have said this before (but with added emphasis and minor changes ..)
even the best case scenario that I could think of where that if the RN is somehow expanded and keep expanding that a different FPDA (which were made in 1971) that states the UK will takeover the Woodlands Naval Base after the Royal Malaysian Navy (finally) transferred to Lumut later in 1984...is probably too much of a stretch....
That being said...
and retain "reasonably" open borders - Singapore's open door policy notwithstanding. Don't know, I've not decided to be honest, just thoughts flowing.
As in there are border checks...but more along the lines of an ID check for the citizens rather than a proper passport check...(similar to how they done in OTL for the border between Sabah, Sarawak and the Peninsular since they each had different immigration and residency policies)...umm no comment other than fair enough....

TLDR: For these countries...the most likely scenario is that the fate of these countries remains the same as IOTL...and any changes would be absolutely minute... and I think for them to have major changes...I think @Alien and Sedition Bat put it in better terms than I ever will....
It would have taken an earlier POD that left Britain in much better shape financially after the war.



By the way...onto the main discussion
Yeah...there are more territories that are wanting to join Britain...while there are some changes in the internal affairs (the metrification is quite interesting to say the least...and hopefully it would be a successful one ITTL)
although with the addition of the new territories...I think there could be an official name change for the UK (I don't know what would be the name though..., the United Kingdom of Great Britain and the British Realms? (not to be confused with the broader Commonwealth Realm))
 
Great chapter.

Given Gibraltar is in I can see the Falklands, and other South Atlantic islands wanting in similar to the Caribbean islands, and so they should.

Given this Britain is in EFTA and the Commonwealth, I cannot see what being in the EEC would bring from the POV of Labour, or many Tories. Sure the Commonwealth is not the wealth generator that the Empire was, but it is very important, and EFTA is the gateway to Europe. No need to join what is obviously going to become a political union.

Re Wales: the famous Dragon flag was only adopted in 1959- is that changed or derailed here?

Could Fiji join Australia? If integration fever is going round, it would certainly make some sense for the two to join.

Speaking of which is the expansion of the UK echoing anywhere else? Guam or Puerto Rico for the US; or the USSR absorbing the Warsaw Pact or Mongolia into the Union directly?
 
Great chapter.

Given Gibraltar is in I can see the Falklands, and other South Atlantic islands wanting in similar to the Caribbean islands, and so they should.

Given this Britain is in EFTA and the Commonwealth, I cannot see what being in the EEC would bring from the POV of Labour, or many Tories. Sure the Commonwealth is not the wealth generator that the Empire was, but it is very important, and EFTA is the gateway to Europe. No need to join what is obviously going to become a political union.

Re Wales: the famous Dragon flag was only adopted in 1959- is that changed or derailed here?

Could Fiji join Australia? If integration fever is going round, it would certainly make some sense for the two to join.

Speaking of which is the expansion of the UK echoing anywhere else? Guam or Puerto Rico for the US; or the USSR absorbing the Warsaw Pact or Mongolia into the Union directly?
In 1946, France gave French citizenship to the people of Martinique, Guadeloupe and French Guiana, with each becoming a department of France, and they are represented in the French Senate and National Assembly and vote in French elections. Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean is also a department and region of France since 1946 and has the largest population of Overseas French entities (860,000). All the named entities are classified as outermost regions of the EU. No attempt will be made here to trace the history of other island entities that have remained tied to France in more complicated ways. According to Wikipedia, "2,834,000 people lived in overseas France in January 2024. Most of these residents are citizens of France and citizens of the European Union. This makes them able to vote in French and European elections." I apologize for inaccuracies; the subject is complicated.
 

Devvy

Donor
Nice bit of morning feedback to respond to :)

As I said that worked great in OTL 😁

Don't need any of those pesky commoners - Er I mean valued electorate getting in the way!

They will be absorbed into europe and by jove they will like it!
You had a referendum to join (well technically to remain in 1975!), and a referendum to leave. There was no referendum in OTL over trade deals, metrication, decimalisation or any other internal reform which made trade easier with Europe and other similar countries.

hmm pity Pitcairn would certainly be hilarious as the smallest Parliamentary seat.....
Hell of a trip to do constituency work! XD

Yeah...I think I type it in a way that wrongly implied something (but I don't know what it is...)...but considering the massive differing opinion of all three governments in terms of economic policy (there is a reason while they are separate)... I think it would the fate of those countries would be like IOTL, as there would be absolutely no common currency between Malaysia and Singapore, if there are any proposal for future FTA...it would probably be a more along the lines of a broader in scope agreement between the members of the (newly formed by this point) ASEAN rather than those 3 countries alone...
as for defence...well I have said this before (but with added emphasis and minor changes ..)

That being said...

As in there are border checks...but more along the lines of an ID check for the citizens rather than a proper passport check...(similar to how they done in OTL for the border between Sabah, Sarawak and the Peninsular since they each had different immigration and residency policies)...umm no comment other than fair enough....

TLDR: For these countries...the most likely scenario is that the fate of these countries remains the same as IOTL...and any changes would be absolutely minute... and I think for them to have major changes...I think @Alien and Sedition Bat put it in better terms than I ever will....




By the way...onto the main discussion

Yeah...there are more territories that are wanting to join Britain...while there are some changes in the internal affairs (the metrification is quite interesting to say the least...and hopefully it would be a successful one ITTL)
although with the addition of the new territories...I think there could be an official name change for the UK (I don't know what would be the name though..., the United Kingdom of Great Britain and the British Realms? (not to be confused with the broader Commonwealth Realm))
Thank you for this, all mentally noted :)

Great chapter.

Given Gibraltar is in I can see the Falklands, and other South Atlantic islands wanting in similar to the Caribbean islands, and so they should.

Given this Britain is in EFTA and the Commonwealth, I cannot see what being in the EEC would bring from the POV of Labour, or many Tories. Sure the Commonwealth is not the wealth generator that the Empire was, but it is very important, and EFTA is the gateway to Europe. No need to join what is obviously going to become a political union.

Re Wales: the famous Dragon flag was only adopted in 1959- is that changed or derailed here?

Could Fiji join Australia? If integration fever is going round, it would certainly make some sense for the two to join.

Speaking of which is the expansion of the UK echoing anywhere else? Guam or Puerto Rico for the US; or the USSR absorbing the Warsaw Pact or Mongolia into the Union directly?
There will inevitably be other islands now looking at the UK as a good option, considering the generally high level of devolution under the "Maltese Model". For Europe though, I'd just point out that EFTA is basically as per OTL, and in OTL, trade growth in EFTA was dwarfed by growth within the EEC. EFTA has free trade, but it has invisible barriers; the EEC removes far more of them.

I don't think the UK has massively changed from OTL, it's future still lies in Europe. It'll join the EEC soon, under a referendum - the primary difference will be that the UK knows it doesn't really have anywhere else to go as the Commonwealth free trade discussions went nowhere (the same as OTL).
The US is friendly but not a "special relationship" any more.
The Commonwealth resembles a bunch of siblings who have all moved out of the house - love to see them and interact with them, but they all have their own economic relationships now.
France is a close partner, and the EEC is the only economic potential partner left in town who can offer what the UK needs in terms of market access.

In 1946, France gave French citizenship to the people of Martinique, Guadeloupe and French Guiana, with each becoming a department of France, and they are represented in the French Senate and National Assembly and vote in French elections. Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean is also a department and region of France since 1946 and has the largest population of Overseas French entities (860,000). All the named entities are classified as outermost regions of the EU. No attempt will be made here to trace the history of other island entities that have remained tied to France in more complicated ways. According to Wikipedia, "2,834,000 people lived in overseas France in January 2024. Most of these residents are citizens of France and citizens of the European Union. This makes them able to vote in French and European elections." I apologize for inaccuracies; the subject is complicated.
I think for this UK ITTL, the UK itself will be constitutionally a little simpler than France. "If you want to integrate, you integrate." They are home nations, the same as Eng, Sco, Wal, NI, with all the bells and whistles which go with it. Outside the UK, the Crown Dependencies, Protectorates, Dependencies, etc, is where it'll be much more messy....rather like OTL.
 
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