TL-191: Yankee Joe - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the U.S. Armed Forces

[RamscoopRaider]

Ideas for the Union barrels. The descriptions of them definitely leave out the M4 Sherman. I always thought the main barrel would be somewhere in weight between the Sherman and the M3/M5 Stuart family.
It has a similar history to where the first model was lighter with a 37mm gun, the second model was updated with heavier army and a heavier gun.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/US/m7-medium.php

Or maybe the M24 MacArthur (name would have to be changed), credit for this design goes to joshshapiro of deviantart

View attachment 411921

Union Barrels we know from canon were the A7V esque Mark I, a Mark II "Custer" with a 50mm in prototype, 37mm in production version and a 60mm armed stopgap during SGW, then we have the Mark III present in most of the later books, with a 90mm gun and heavy sloped armor seen after encounters with the 75mm armed CSA Mark IV

 

[Gunman873]

The M7 medium began life with a 37mm, it would be too easy to replace the 75mm in the second model with a 60mm. Which leads to a second point: 60mm. What was turtledove thinking when he decided this? The 50mm or the 57mm was in common use with armies but 60mm is more of a mortar thing, not anti tank. Second point, I get that the shortened war time frame on US territory but skipping out on a true medium tank design does make technological sense to me. Going from a Stuart/Pz III size tank to a Panther/Pershing is a huge undertaking. You need factories to make the jump in weight class but also engines powerful and reliable enough to handle the strain of these designs, something that plagued the Panther and Pershing after the warring nations already had years of experience producing traditional medium tanks.


For weight comparisons on barrels that would be in the same weight class analogues:

M3 Stuart= 16.75 tons
M4 Sherman= 33-42 tons depending on variant
M26 Pershing= 46 tons


Panzer III= 25 tons
Panther= 50 ish tons
Tiger 2= 75 tons


It would be very difficult for any nation to jump from a Stuart to Pershing, or from Pz III to a Panther without bridging the engineering gap first.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

The M7 medium began life with a 37mm, it would be too easy to replace the 75mm in the second model with a 60mm. Which leads to a second point: 60mm. What was turtledove thinking when he decided this? The 50mm or the 57mm was in common use with armies but 60mm is more of a mortar thing, not anti tank. Second point, I get that the shortened war time frame on US territory but skipping out on a true medium tank design does make technological sense to me. Going from a Stuart/Pz III size tank to a Panther/Pershing is a huge undertaking. You need factories to make the jump in weight class but also engines powerful and reliable enough to handle the strain of these designs, something that plagued the Panther and Pershing after the warring nations already had years of experience producing traditional medium tanks.


For weight comparisons on barrels that would be in the same weight class analogues:

M3 Stuart= 16.75 tons
M4 Sherman= 33-42 tons depending on variant
M26 Pershing= 46 tons


Panzer III= 25 tons
Panther= 50 ish tons
Tiger 2= 75 tons


It would be very difficult for any nation to jump from a Stuart to Pershing, or from Pz III to a Panther without bridging the engineering gap first.

60mm was the caliber of the Bazooka. And 57mm was a Navy Caliber historically, 191 USA used 50mm in its early barrels from what I recall, OTL USA only adopted 57mm from the British during WWI, phased it out then had to readopt it from the UK for WWI. Besides it would be a newly developed gun so a new caliber is not out of bounds and there is the Soviet answer, have 60mm instead of 57mm so nobody asks for 57mm tank gun shells and gets 57mm coast artillery shells that are incompatible with the tank guns

We have no idea about any other designs/prototypes they may have had that didn't enter full production for whatever reason. We don't know if they had say a 30-40 ton barrel buster or assault gun on its own chassis, or a limited production series that never got its own mark or an export series, or a Marine series numbered outside the Army one. We have very little information on the subject. For all we know they had a 75mm armed design ready to go and decided not to disrupt production for marginal gain and to what until they had a huge leap in capability ready

 

[cortz#9]

Pederson carbine. A smaller and more practical version of the OTL Pederson rifle. This takes a ten or twenty round magazine instead of using stripper clips.

This gun still uses the mechanism and all internals of the OTL Pederson, only the magazine feed is different and the length of the barrel is shorter and the stock has been simplified.

 

[cortz#9]

How about this for a Union SMG? M3 Sub-gun with ventilated barrel shroud in a PPSH stock with a 50 rd. drum from a Thompson and dual triggers for semi and full auto from a Beretta Model 38/42.

 

[cortz#9]

A whole new take on an alternate carbine.

Only used WWII rifle parts this time except for the 30 rd. magazine, that's post war.

 

[Tiro]

No I will not call it the Taft. It does need a name though, the M7 Custer?

We all know that no matter what name the Brass care to hang on it, the Boys will be calling it "The Big Stick" from now until the end of Time!

There's bound to be some kind of agency in the US to deal with that kind of stuff, only it's probably closer to the NKVD or Gestapo than the FBI.

I doubt it would be QUITE that bad (the Timeline-191 USA is pretty beaten-up, but its still a Representative Democracy rather than a military dictatorship or a Totalitarian Regime).

 

[pattontank12]

I doubt it would be QUITE that bad (the Timeline-191 USA is pretty beaten-up, but its still a Representative Democracy rather than a military dictatorship or a Totalitarian Regime).

True. It wouldn't be THAT bad but considering the nature of TL-191 US and the threats their dealing with it would make sense for their intelligence agency's to be more "aggressive" than their OTL counterparts.

 

[cortz#9]

True. It wouldn't be THAT bad but considering the nature of TL-191 US and the threats their dealing with it would make sense for their intelligence agency's to be more "aggressive" than their OTL counterparts.

I agree the Feds who would be more aggressive than OTL because they have an enemy right next door unlike OTL where all our enemies were across a sea.

 

[cortz#9]

My take on a US medium barrel circa 1942-43. B7 "Custer". Armament 75mm gun and two 7mm MG's.

 

[Tiro]

At this point I truly regret not being able to look up that grand old term of praise General Custer applied during the Great War books to his very own namesake ("shockdeloger" or something on that order*), since it seems highly appropriate to this excellent rendition!

*One of his subordinates notes that "My father, rest his soul, used to use that word" in one of the more entertaining asides from the series (I've always imagined it spoken in tones of respectful suspicion, with the air of man who has been offered a Colt pistol and found himself handling an 1848 Dragoon instead of a 1911 Automatic ...).

 

[cortz#9]

At this point I truly regret not being able to look up that grand old term of praise General Custer applied during the Great War books to his very own namesake ("shockdeloger" or something on that order*), since it seems highly appropriate to this excellent rendition!

*One of his subordinates notes that "My father, rest his soul, used to use that word" in one of the more entertaining asides from the series (I've always imagined it spoken in tones of respectful suspicion, with the air of man who has been offered a Colt pistol and found himself handling an 1848 Dragoon instead of a 1911 Automatic ...).

Dam now I'm trying to remember that term. This going to drive me nuts!

 

[Tiro]

Welcome to my brain, do watch the medulla oblongata (it can make quite a mess when disturbed).

 

[Alterwright]

A whole new take on an alternate carbine.

Only used WWII rifle parts this time except for the 30 rd. magazine, that's post war.

Oh wow! I actually really like this one!!In fact this could look like more than just a carbine! Swap out the magazine and you might actually have a competing US contender for the TAR!

Well anyway, I'd say this is one of my favs when it comes to the carbine designs. That's probably due to the fact its very close in aesthetics to what the M1 Carbine looked like, but different enough to be completely unique. Definitely a handy little weapon. if you get it with a 15 rd. magazine as a like a war-standard magazine it might just do perfectly as TL-191 US Army's carbine!

What parts for this one? Got a name and designation?

 

[cortz#9]

Oh wow! I actually really like this one!!In fact this could look like more than just a carbine! Swap out the magazine and you might actually have a competing US contender for the TAR!

Well anyway, I'd say this is one of my favs when it comes to the carbine designs. That's probably due to the fact its very close in aesthetics to what the M1 Carbine looked like, but different enough to be completely unique. Definitely a handy little weapon. if you get it with a 15 rd. magazine as a like a war-standard magazine it might just do perfectly as TL-191 US Army's carbine!

What parts for this one? Got a name and designation?

No name, how about R2 Carbine? I used a pic of an SMLE No4 that was modded to look like a Jungle carbine No5 by a private company in South Africa. I also use the buttstock from an M14 and some bits from a Mas-49 and a Walther Kar-43
Here's a new pic with a slightly larger M1 carbine 15 rd. magazine, lets say its a twenty rd. mag.

 

[Jack Brisco]

Okay! So you actually touch upon a really good source here with the Chilean Army I feel. Not only did the Chilean Army have a surprising amount of German influence in their uniforms, but that influence also extended to their military organization and administration. They pursued and active policy of emulation to in order to reform the military. Despite winning the War of the Pacific, the Chileans saw massive problems with how they ran their army and sought to change things based on the Prussian/German model. This was around 1880s as well, the same time that the US was beaten by the Confederacy in the Second Mexican War. They too sent out feelers to the newly unified German Empire to reform and reorganize their army, with instructors taking the lead. This change also extended to uniforms as well, at least where officers are concerned.

So the Chilean uniforms, especially some of the older ones, may provide some look into what a TL-191 US uniform may roughly look like in terms of style. In fact looking at the cut and style of uniforms from South American countries around the 1930s and 1940s may be worth a look too.

Actually the East German camo scheme might work nicely! And the cut of the uniform as well! If you make it more of a gray-green color and darken the "rain" pattern stripes this could work as a simple alternative camo scheme for the US Army. For me, in the context of the 1930s and 1940s, I would probably get rid of the arm pockets on the uniform and make the webbing un-camoflagued. Its a post-war look and those features were just not commonly done in the 1930s and 1940s. But hey its whatever, you know.

Speaking of Chile, many years ago I attended a function with a Chilean Navy captain. We were both wearing our ribbons. Interestingly, every one of that captain's ribbons were various red/white/blue designs, apparently after the Chilean flag.

 

[cortz#9]

I went back and posted a better pic of the B7.

 

[Alterwright]

I went back and posted a better pic of the B7.

Saw it! Very nice!

 

[Alterwright]

My take on a US medium barrel circa 1942-43. B7 "Custer". Armament 75mm gun and two 7mm MG's.

Okay, now this is an interesting design here! And one that I wasn't entirely expecting. Reason being is because of the "sloped" looking design. Not saying its bad, just observing how different it is. Visually speaking this would be good though. This US tank draws a hard contrast to the Confederate tanks from the Confederate thread, namely the FV38 Coyote. Its also interesting for the fact that it seems to use the tracks of a Sherman and what seems to be the turret of a PT-76 Soviet tank. can't tell what the hull is from though.

Overall, I actually kind of like this design! To me it gives the feeling of a tank like the Sherman or a T-34 combined into one. Its got a simple enough looking design that gives me the impression that it can be produced in larger numbers. Its unique shape would instantly recognizable to friend and foe alike as well, making for easy identification and possibly better protection.

From the caliber of the gun, it certainly seem like this is TL-191's version of the Sherman Tank. And not half bad either!

 

[cortz#9]

Okay, now this is an interesting design here! And one that I wasn't entirely expecting. Reason being is because of the "sloped" looking design. Not saying its bad, just observing how different it is. Visually speaking this would be good though. This US tank draws a hard contrast to the Confederate tanks from the Confederate thread, namely the FV38 Coyote. Its also interesting for the fact that it seems to use the tracks of a Sherman and what seems to be the turret of a PT-76 Soviet tank. can't tell what the hull is from though.

Overall, I actually kind of like this design! To me it gives the feeling of a tank like the Sherman or a T-34 combined into one. Its got a simple enough looking design that gives me the impression that it can be produced in larger numbers. Its unique shape would instantly recognizable to friend and foe alike as well, making for easy identification and possibly better protection.

From the caliber of the gun, it certainly seem like this is TL-191's version of the Sherman Tank. And not half bad either!

My thinking is that ITTL the US was the first to use sloped armour ( I think I remember Turtledove mentioning sloped) . The suspension came from a Sherman and the upper hull is the front half of a T-34 and the back half is the rear end of an Sd.Kfz. 234 armour car. The turret is half PT-76 and half 234 armour car again, the gun is a 75mm.