TL-191: Yankee Joe - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the U.S. Armed Forces

One thing that seems pretty clear for the US Army in TL-191 is their arsenal of small arms. Its explicitly stated numerous times that the Army uses "Springfields", "Thompsons", and ".50 cals". From the sound of it they seem to be our timeline's very own M1903 Springfield, M1A1 Thompson, and Browning M2HB. I believe at one point a "carbine" was mentioned too, likely the M1 Carbine, but I could be wrong.

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So we're looking at an arsenal here that might be roughly comparable to our timeline's US WWII arsenal. However, we'd be missing an iconic and important weapon - the M1 Garand. The Garand is not mentioned at all in TL-191 and its absence is sorely felt by US soldiers. The Springfield is a good rifle, a reliable one at that, proven in the trenches of the Great War. By the Second Great War, it is outclassed by the TAR and US soldiers feel the terrible gap in firepower.

I think that's a pretty interesting butterfly effect here. As for the why the US Military didn't develop its own semi-auto or full-auto rifle we might never truly know. Either way, unlike the Confederates, the weapons used by the US Army are comfortably familiar.
Do you recall if the books mention the CSA using the 50 cal. or a heavy MG?
 
Do you recall if the books mention the CSA using the 50 cal. or a heavy MG?

Yes, the Confederates do use a weapon chambered for the .50 caliber bullet, same as the Yankees. Whether the Confederates use the exact same weapon, like if it was an exact copy, is unknown to me, but very unlikely. In my opinion, US Army weapons are probably closer to our timeline's version of the guns, if not the exact same, whereas the Confederate guns are more open to interpretation and imagination.

Interestingly enough, there is no mention of the US using the M1911 Colt .45. So there is still an opportunity for the US to have some uniquely designed weapons either way you look at it.
 
Yes, the Confederates do use a weapon chambered for the .50 caliber bullet, same as the Yankees. Whether the Confederates use the exact same weapon, like if it was an exact copy, is unknown to me, but very unlikely. In my opinion, US Army weapons are probably closer to our timeline's version of the guns, if not the exact same, whereas the Confederate guns are more open to interpretation and imagination.

Interestingly enough, there is no mention of the US using the M1911 Colt .45. So there is still an opportunity for the US to have some uniquely designed weapons either way you look at it.
Interesting. I wonder if they still use revolvers or maybe the US bought the license to make the Luger in 45 cal?
 
Interesting. I wonder if they still use revolvers or maybe the US bought the license to make the Luger in 45 cal?

Again, in my opinion, its very possible the US still issues revolvers, but I'd caution against them using them as, say, their standard side arm. Still issued large numbers though, no doubt.

The M1911 had a very interesting history to its development, with the US actively trying to replace their revolvers with a semi-auto, magazine fed pistol. Notably, one of the reasons for this search for a new pistol was from the experiences of the Philippine-American War of 1899-1903. The revolvers troops used did not have the stopping power they needed and were unsuited to the nature of the fighting - close quarters with fanatical fighters that took drugs to null the pain of being shot. They needed a pistol with a bullet large enough to stop a man dead in his tracks, could be loaded quickly, and could hit harder.

With no Philippines though, pistol development might go a different way. I believe the US will still have a semi-auto, magazine pistol, but I believe they would develop it in a different way. And that doesn't mean revolvers are left out of the plans either. Unlike the European countries I think both the CSA and USA would value pistols or revolvers with bullets that can hit harder despite a slower velocity. The pistols aren't just for show on a dress uniform - they'd be there to kill. That's the design philosophy I think US and CS would have anyway.
 
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There's a decent chance the M1 Carbine could have been butterflied away or look completely different. The US Light Rifle Program could have still occurred in 1941 but the carbine would be completely different. For starters, the M1 as he know was a child of Jonathan "Ed" Browning (brother of John Browning) and David Marshall Williams (of North Carolina). A mormon and a southerner developing a rifle for Union use is highly unlikely. Not to mention the bolt was a Garand design and we all know the TL191 story behind that one. Some ideas could be:

Bendix Hyde Carbine

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Turner Carbine
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Hillberg Carbine

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Auto Ordnance

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Or any of the other Light Rifle candidates
 
There's a decent chance the M1 Carbine could have been butterflied away or look completely different. The US Light Rifle Program could have still occurred in 1941 but the carbine would be completely different. For starters, the M1 as he know was a child of Jonathan "Ed" Browning (brother of John Browning) and David Marshall Williams (of North Carolina). A mormon and a southerner developing a rifle for Union use is highly unlikely. Not to mention the bolt was a Garand design and we all know the TL191 story behind that one. Some ideas could be:

Bendix Hyde Carbine

450px-Hyde_Carbine.jpg



Turner Carbine
3427.jpg



Hillberg Carbine

hillbergcarbine1.jpg


Auto Ordnance

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Or any of the other Light Rifle candidates
If I could find a few pics of a couple of these guns in a clearer format or in line drawings, I would like to take some features from each and make a new carbine, I'll hunt around and see what I can find because you've sparked some ideas here on my end.
 
There's two versions of the Bendix Hyde, the one pictured above and one with a pistol grip. Kind of a Thompson look to it, could provide a counter to the TAR. I can especially see it in use by airborne, special forces, or assault units. The picture below has the short test mag, there is a longer one like the picture I posted earlier.


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There's two versions of the Bendix Hyde, the one pictured above and one with a pistol grip. Kind of a Thompson look to it, could provide a counter to the TAR. I can especially see it in use by airborne, special forces, or assault units. The picture below has the short test mag, there is a longer one like the picture I posted earlier.

I actually like the look of this one the most. Probably has to do with the fact that it does look like a Thompson, but also because it looks like a combat ready weapon, at least from a glance. I guess its because the other ones look a little too "fragile" or too "sporty", but hey I could be very wrong about that. The first version of the Bendix-Hyde is a gun that looks good to me as a substitute for the M1 Carbine, if it was truly butterflied out of existence.
 
One personal theory I had was that following SGW the first US assault rifles would actually be descendants of the Tommy Gun. Figuring they'd try using tried and proven weapon has the template for future weapons.
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One personal theory I had was that following SGW the first US assault rifles would actually be descendants of the Tommy Gun. Figuring they'd try using tried and proven weapon has the template for future weapons.
I think the automatics in TL-191 that you guys are thinking about is something analogue to OTL's BAR. Turtledove seems to have given the CSA weapons reminiscent of OTL US weaponry and to a lesser degree some weapons that sound like they were inspired by German weapons like the Tiger tank and the Stuka.

This doesn't make complete sense to me because the CSA is allied to Britain and France and I would think there planes and barrels would have some influence on the CS but that doesn't mean the CSA wouldn't have some original designs of their own.
 
M1 Scout a light barrel from the mid war era design but still used for training purposes and by National Guard units.

M1 Scout Car.png
 
I think the automatics in TL-191 that you guys are thinking about is something analogue to OTL's BAR. Turtledove seems to have given the CSA weapons reminiscent of OTL US weaponry and to a lesser degree some weapons that sound like they were inspired by German weapons like the Tiger tank and the Stuka.

This doesn't make complete sense to me because the CSA is allied to Britain and France and I would think there planes and barrels would have some influence on the CS but that doesn't mean the CSA wouldn't have some original designs of their own.
I personally thought that the CS machine gun would be closer to the British Bren or French FM 24/29. While the US automatics would be closer to early MG series or BAR, possibly something like the Winchester Automatic Rifle.
 
I personally thought that the CS machine gun would be closer to the British Bren or French FM 24/29. While the US automatics would be closer to early MG series or BAR, possibly something like the Winchester Automatic Rifle.
I could see that and in the end I think Turtledove leaves things open enough for us to let imaginations fill in the blanks and just have some with what thing in an alternate timeline might look like.
over on the Alternate Armoured fighting Vehicles thread, I wrote up a post about a little proxy war fought by Mexico and Guatemala, it has nothing to do with TL-191 but its set in the same universe and was fun to write and the M1 Scout barrel and the CG39 (drawn up by friend Claymore and posted over at the Featherston's finest thread) duke it out in in Central America. :)

So I'm basically going to draw up what I think might fit and I'm happy to draw up anything you guys suggest. :)
 
I'd also suggest OTL interwar Austrian uniforms for another source for the US military. Especially with the same kind of engravings being used for Union ceremonial helmets, only replace the Austrian eagle and flag with the American eagle and shield.
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My first take on the assault carbine, not happy with it, looks a little too modern and not WWII-sh enough for my liking.
Started out with an AK (my first mistake but I like the butstock) and then added a 30 rd. magazine from an M1 Carbine, added the upper receiver from a WWII Tokarov semi-automatic rifle and the pistol grip and barrel from an MP-40 and fore-stock from a Thompson.

I imagine this gun being chambered in a pistol caliber but something bigger than the 30 carbine of OTL.
Suggestions for take two welcomed and encouraged.

Battle-Carbine.jpg


I'm calling this the M1 Battle Carbine.
 
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Just found this. Pedersen Rifle anyone?

I've always thought the Pederson was an interesting rifle. I wonder if a carbine version of it could be made? I found a line drawing of the Pederson and I'm going to have a play with it. Gonna try a shorter barrel and a longer magazine.

1920px-Pedersen_Rifle.jpg
 
I was thinking that a US heavy barrel could resemble something of a cross between either the experimental M6 heavy tank or T-29 and the both the Soviet's IS-2 and IS-3
M6E2A1 foto.jpg
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Also another thought on the Uniforms but this time for the early Great War era.

Notice the red trimming on the early German uniforms of ww2. Well I was thinking that the US would have the same kind of trimming but in the union blue, instead of red. Possibly with later designs still having that design element well into SGW.
Uhlan500.jpg
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Right, and honestly that's probably the most likely route too. While I do like Irving Morrell as a character in the books, him creating the US's first infantry helmet seems a bit too much. And lends itself too much to building him up into a "Mary Sue St. Rommel".

Getting off topic. Point being is that the export of the stahlhelm is not unlikely and with the US's industrial capacity it is very possible for them to produce a licensed version of the helmet, more so the WWII design actually.

Plus the helmet is a good design, regardless of its symbology. It protects the neck and is able to protect against shrapnel falling onto the head.

The text was pretty clear on this: the U.S. was the country that came up with the steel helmet and that it was the Germans who would be copying it. And honestly, Morrell's role--he talked to a doctor about it, then promptly forgot--seems trivial almost to a comical degree in the wider canvas of his career.
 
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