TL-191: Yankee Joe - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the U.S. Armed Forces

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Alterwright, Sep 30, 2018.

  1. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Like the Confederate uniforms, there has been much talk and speculation about this as well, with varying ideas taking shape. So, like the Confederate uniforms, equipment, and weapons, we'll be opening up an exclusive thread for this topic too!

    Its simple and straight forward enough: What do you think the uniforms, equipment, and weapons of the United States Armed Forces would look like in TL-191?

    This includes all branches of the US Armed Forces - Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and other sub-divisions. This also includes ranks patches, insignias, decals, badges, coats, helmet covers, hats, camouflage patterns, trousers, tunics, leggings, pants, buttons, ammo pouches, bread-bags, holsters, the works. Be as vague or detailed as you need to be! Visuals are welcomed of course!

    If you want you can narrow it down to a time period between 1941-1944, but you can also broaden it to include the Great War years, so 1914-1944.
     
  2. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    So, while the subject of the uniform is always up for the debate, I think its very interesting that there is a somewhat common consensus on the helmet used by the US Amry in TL-191. Now, I'm not saying this is a definitive common consensus, and in fact I could be wrong. I just find it interesting that the Stahlhelm seems to be the most popular helmet among some fans of the series that would be used by the US Army.

    f_803_1.jpg

    And I agree really! And why not! The stahlhelm itself was not exclusively used by the Germans was exported to a number countries across the world in our timeline, though in limited but notable amounts.

    To me, it makes sense. The United States and Germany, although perhaps not the closest or the best of allies, still cooperated enough with each other to warrant some trade and military exchange. I can definitely see the US buying a contract or license of some kind to produce the helmet en masse. It would be the US's version of the "steel pot" helmet, while the iconic M1 would be used by the Confederates.

    To me, its also a bit symbolic. We often associate the helmet with "the bad guys" and has garnered a reputation as such because of the history behind the users of the helmet. Its visually striking to potentially imagine a US GI wearing this helmet and it kind of forces us to see the US Army in shades of gray. After all in the books the US Army acts more like a took for stamping out resistance places like Canada and Utah, while taking a hardline, highly militaristic stance against the CSA. This a US that acts less democratic and more heavy handed.
     
  3. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    I like the the stahlhelm myself but found it unlikely that the US would conceive of the design, it would've made more sense if the Germans first came up with it and then the US adopted it. I say this because the stahlhelm was based on the sallet, an Italian helmet from the mid fifteenth century and further developed by the Germans.

    [​IMG]
    Its's a cool design though so what the hell.
     
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  4. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    I wonder what the USN is like as IIRC, there is no analogue to the WNT but OTOH, Tillman's a CSA politician.
     
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  5. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    I was thinking that the US Army uniform during the Great War instead of being a direct copy of German Wermacht uniforms, instead look like a mix Chilean, Hungarian and Soviet elements, with maybe some cold war East German elements for the officer uniforms.

    Chile since both countries heavily based their militaries off of the Prussian model, starting around the 19th century.
    chilegeneral.jpg 800px-Mike_Mullen_with_Chilean_honor_guard_in_Santiago_3-3-09.jpg 500c6fe615b1206f61417ae1c4f3d62f.jpg

    Hungary since their uniform were heavily influenced by German designs during WW2, yet still retained many of their own elements. That and I do like the idea of American tank drivers actually still wearing the old fashioned union blue.
    s-l1000.jpg cab961776b20b292aa215cead8ec8904.jpg th (10).jpeg

    The Soviet Union because of the heavy parallelism between the Soviet-Japanese boarder skirmishes/Great Patriotic War and the Pacific War/Second Great War.
    different-soviet-soldier-uniforms-world-war-ii-50144487.jpg wwii-early-war-russian-infantry-uniforms-1.jpg

    Then finally East Germany mainly just for fun.
    EGAF2.jpg east_german_mot__schuetzen__utv_field_equipment_by_moscownights92-d6t7bg5.jpg
     
  6. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Sorry, can you clarify this a bit? You're wondering what the US Navy in terms of uniforms looks like? And what its like in general?
     
  7. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Right, and honestly that's probably the most likely route too. While I do like Irving Morrell as a character in the books, him creating the US's first infantry helmet seems a bit too much. And lends itself too much to building him up into a "Mary Sue St. Rommel".

    Getting off topic. Point being is that the export of the stahlhelm is not unlikely and with the US's industrial capacity it is very possible for them to produce a licensed version of the helmet, more so the WWII design actually.

    Plus the helmet is a good design, regardless of its symbology. It protects the neck and is able to protect against shrapnel falling onto the head.
     
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  8. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Okay! So you actually touch upon a really good source here with the Chilean Army I feel. Not only did the Chilean Army have a surprising amount of German influence in their uniforms, but that influence also extended to their military organization and administration. They pursued and active policy of emulation to in order to reform the military. Despite winning the War of the Pacific, the Chileans saw massive problems with how they ran their army and sought to change things based on the Prussian/German model. This was around 1880s as well, the same time that the US was beaten by the Confederacy in the Second Mexican War. They too sent out feelers to the newly unified German Empire to reform and reorganize their army, with instructors taking the lead. This change also extended to uniforms as well, at least where officers are concerned.

    So the Chilean uniforms, especially some of the older ones, may provide some look into what a TL-191 US uniform may roughly look like in terms of style. In fact looking at the cut and style of uniforms from South American countries around the 1930s and 1940s may be worth a look too.

    Actually the East German camo scheme might work nicely! And the cut of the uniform as well! If you make it more of a gray-green color and darken the "rain" pattern stripes this could work as a simple alternative camo scheme for the US Army. For me, in the context of the 1930s and 1940s, I would probably get rid of the arm pockets on the uniform and make the webbing un-camoflagued. Its a post-war look and those features were just not commonly done in the 1930s and 1940s. But hey its whatever, you know.
     
  9. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Besides the possible German, Chilean, Hungarian, and even East German uniforms as a source for possible uniforms for the US Army in TL-191, I think the German-trained divisions under the Chinese KMT during WWII in our timeline deserve a mention as well.

    This is strictly uniform design though. I'm aware that the Chinese might actually take inspiration from the German's for these uniforms in TL-191, but for now, just focusing on elements of a possible "look" for the US Army and where that "look" can come from.

    454eb092ddf3479291135777335381f3.png

    ^^^ --- collars and pocket placement, as well as insignia locations

    main-qimg-6d06e64647552d152a142df1e1a9454e-c.jpeg

    ^^^ --- simple and distinct design

    0019b91eca570df2c6de15_zpsac4bc7f1.jpg

    ^^^ --- Of course the stahlhelm, with appropriate US insignia

    China-soldiers-German-trained-px800.jpeg

    ^^^ --- Webbing and alternative headgear here on display

    hqdefault.jpg

    600px-FlowersOfWar-ZB26-2.jpg

    qin hao flowers of war2 3r.jpg

    ^^^ --- These three colored pictures here I especially like too, because its gives a look into what a "worn and gritty" looking US uniform would look like as well as a gives us a look into the dye used, especially that all important "gray-green" color. I feel that in most cases here in the colored ones they get the shade of gray-green just about right.
     
  10. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    @pattontank12 pointed this out already, but here are some more Chilean examples of the stahlhelm and uniform.

    chilegeneral.jpg

    ^^^ --- Irving Morrell's parade dress uniform, as well as possible army generals' uniforms

    chilhelmet.jpg

    ^^^ --- Chilean stahlhelm in color, with insignia

    photo90.jpg

    ^^^ --- soldiers on parade

    With a nice gray-green tint for the cloth and the helmets, this look might just work.
     
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  11. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    One thing I do believe the US Army would keep regardless of the timeline is a US-style design on boots. Maybe jack-boots for officers, but for me I don't see the US infantry adopting european style jack-boots for frontline combat. That's just me though

    $_3.JPG

    ^^^ --- Specifically, the US Army would use this design. Regardless of side, I do believe the CSA and USA would have boots styles that are entirely and are uniquely "American". To suit the environment the soldiers find themselves in and to accommodate the American foot. Maybe that's just me, but hey. This is cool style in terms of boots.
     
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  12. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    Not sure if this fits here but I'm thinking US tanks are actually a mix of OTL French and Soviet elements. Referencing the sloped armor of the French and actually being superior to German armor at the start of OTL ww2.

    Think a cross between the French Renault and the Soviet KV-1 bcc99a4e2cb206b3e253d1cf521784f5.jpg 9705297029_649e564b33_b.jpg

    I actually figured that along with the boots I actually figured that the US would still be using the classic cavalry hat for the officer's. At least until the Great Wat because it was so distinctively "American" and in the same vein has German officers wearing heavily decorated picklehaubs, plus they are pretty cool hats.
    Cavalry-Hats-Image.jpg
     
  13. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    A lot of countries licensed the Stahlhelm, no prob the US doing the same.
    Those color pics, especially the last one are awesome! :cool:
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
  14. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    I'm not too sure the US would be influenced by French and Russian designs, they're both allies of Britain and the CSA and the US might be prejudiced against anything produced by them and the US has always had a "We can do better" attitude. I think the CSA would most like be influenced by Russian, French and British tanks and some of the CS barrel designs I did on the "Featherston's Finest" thread reflect this but that's just my opinion and I'm no authority or expert on the subject.

    I did some US or Union as I call em barrels for a friend a few years back and they mostly had a US German look to them.

    The Mk.V Medium barrel.
    MK.VI.jpg

    The Mk.VII.
    MK.VII.jpg

    Neither of these is cannon of course and I post them to inspire further discussion.
     
  15. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    Well, I'm wondering what its capital shups are like.
     
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  16. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    You mean the U.S. Navy's battleships and carriers? I don't imagine they'd be any different than in our timeline, although there would probably be some notable differences. Can't say what they'd be off the top of my head though. Without a doubt though, the US Navy would have "big guns" ships in its fleet, same as the other major sea powers. I'd have to read again, but I don't think aircraft carriers play as vital a role as they did in our timeline, although I could be wrong on that.
     
  17. pattontank12 Better Dead than Red!

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    I didn't mean they'd copy the TL-191 Entente but more along the lines of their designs developing similar to the French and Russian's of OTL.
     
  18. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    I see. I often wondered what weapons got butterflied away, did the Russians still use sloped armour before anyone else? did big tanks with sponsons continue to be built long after the Great War ended?
     
  19. RamscoopRaider Some Sort of Were-Orca, probably an Akhlut Donor

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    They don't, the US isn't trying to project power a great distance, there are a few CV battles, but they seem a sideshow, the US losing its carrier in the Pacific is not seen as that big a deal

    US ships should be shorter ranged than OTL, since their primary mission is close to home not across the Pacific. The USN should actually get its Battlecruisers, given it should have at least Germany's Naval budget to play with, fleet would be much more balanced than the OTL USN got until the late 30's, since it actually expects to fight a major war nearby without much leadup time to crash build small fry. Capital ships would probably be shorter and fatter than OTL for a given tonnage without Panama constraining beams, so they'd pack slightly more in per ton thanks to a more efficient shape and have much better torpedo defenses. No idea if there is a naval treaty, or what the terms of said treaty would be, which would effect designs. Might see the US willing to violate OTLs 100% reserve buoyancy principle if operating close to home
     
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  20. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    One thing that seems pretty clear for the US Army in TL-191 is their arsenal of small arms. Its explicitly stated numerous times that the Army uses "Springfields", "Thompsons", and ".50 cals". From the sound of it they seem to be our timeline's very own M1903 Springfield, M1A1 Thompson, and Browning M2HB. I believe at one point a "carbine" was mentioned too, likely the M1 Carbine, but I could be wrong.

    four_rifles_med.jpg

    1771.jpg

    Browning_M2_360_720_50-1.jpg

    Rifle.jpg

    So we're looking at an arsenal here that might be roughly comparable to our timeline's US WWII arsenal. However, we'd be missing an iconic and important weapon - the M1 Garand. The Garand is not mentioned at all in TL-191 and its absence is sorely felt by US soldiers. The Springfield is a good rifle, a reliable one at that, proven in the trenches of the Great War. By the Second Great War, it is outclassed by the TAR and US soldiers feel the terrible gap in firepower.

    I think that's a pretty interesting butterfly effect here. As for the why the US Military didn't develop its own semi-auto or full-auto rifle we might never truly know. Either way, unlike the Confederates, the weapons used by the US Army are comfortably familiar.