TL-191: Yankee Joe - Uniforms, Weapons, and Vehicles of the U.S. Armed Forces
- Thread starter Alterwright
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Hard to say. I'm guessing you say this because of the USMC's use of camo during WW2? If they did start using camo uniforms I'd imagine it wouldn't be universally adopted in the Corps for a time besides being used on helmet covers and tent flaps and tarps, which seemed to be the common use in our time line for the marines. I can't say for certain though as I don't have much info on why the USMC adopted camo where the Army didn't.
My guess is that USMC in TL-191 would have to see a point to using camo on their uniforms, judging by how they are deployed and how where they are deployed to. Fortunately it seems like we have good examples of major operations, mostly in desert/arid or humid/tropical environments - Baja California and Haiti, smaller raids on the Eastern Seaboard on Confederate shores in the form of covert operations.
Waffen SS camo patterns seem to have a common theme of blending in to more temperate heavily forested European environments. My guess is that if the USMC were to adopt a pattern of camo different than that of our timeline's version of what the USMC used, it would have to be in color palates suited to dry deserts or sweltering jungles.
Interestingly enough though the Germans in WWII did have marine formations of their own, but they seem to be more closely related to the Navy. No camo though.
A problem with Confederates using the B-17: when Potter is informed about the impending raid on the U.S. atomic research facility at Hanford, WA, he laments that the bombers have to fly 1200 miles just to get to the target with a light bomb load. OTL they had to fly 2200 miles one-way to Hawaii when deploying pre-Pearl Harbor to the Philippines, and after, they were using bomb-bay tanks. The Confederates' main bomber has been called the Razorback, and it seems like the He-111 is what Turtledove's comparing it to.
Mm-hm. I just remember the cover art for one of the books I got
it had a B-17 bomber done up with Confederate decals. I think it was one of the those marketing decisions to grab buyer's attention to get them to look at the book.
I've personally always been reminded of the Italian Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 when I thought about Confederate bombers.
Yep. Weren't Confederate bombers informally referred to as alligators? Been a while since I read the book.
Any thoughts on Yankee paratroopers in TL-191? What they look like and such?
The SM.79 is considered by many aviation historians to be the best torpedo bomber of WWII.
The Italians made some good airplanes.
Another deviation - while I have no idea where it would fit in in terms of usability on the North American continent, I think another Italian designed vehicle would be good for TL-191 US.
The AS-42 "Sahariana", or a design philosophy similar to it.
After hard lessons learned in the North African desert, being raided by the Long Range Desert Group, the Italians decided they wanted in on some of that hot scout car action. Looking very similar to the German kubelwagen, the AS-42 was designed for long range recon, with a profile and an ability to chase and raid over long distances. It could support a variety of weapons systems to give it some punch.
I think the US Army in TL-191 could benefit from a design like this. I have no idea if it would fit in, but given what it was designed for I think could be good in the western fronts of North America, like Baja, Texas, Utah, Oklahoma and so on, basically where great distances over rough terrain need to be traveled.
The AS-42 "Sahariana", or a design philosophy similar to it.
After hard lessons learned in the North African desert, being raided by the Long Range Desert Group, the Italians decided they wanted in on some of that hot scout car action. Looking very similar to the German kubelwagen, the AS-42 was designed for long range recon, with a profile and an ability to chase and raid over long distances. It could support a variety of weapons systems to give it some punch.
I think the US Army in TL-191 could benefit from a design like this. I have no idea if it would fit in, but given what it was designed for I think could be good in the western fronts of North America, like Baja, Texas, Utah, Oklahoma and so on, basically where great distances over rough terrain need to be traveled.
I definitely agree that there would definitely be German and possibly to a lesser extent Italian influences in 191 US paratroopers. Though I think they may use their own styled combat vest/possible body armor similar to this. (Sorry I couldn't find a better picture)
That kinda reminds me of WW2 American amphibious vehicles, possibly meant to being able cross rivers and lakes as a part of its scout car role.
While the Italians were mostly considered to be the clown of the Axis they did have some decent parts.
I think the Germans in a victorious WWI would have still developed their uniform further using the lessons learned in WWI. Case in point, the brown shirt uniform used by the SA was a new type of uniform that was going to be issued to German troops in Africa but the war ended before they could be issued. The brown shirt uniform is more similar to the WWII uniform than the WWI version.
So then, in your opinion, what's your interpretation of what they would look like? Visual examples?
Since you guys seem to have more of a love of vehicles and aircraft, here's a crazy idea for alternate aircraft for the US Military in TL-191.
So, I know everyone likes to talk about the inclusion of the American copy of the Me-262 into the war in North America. Gets a lot of attention and stuff. I would like to now draw your attention to a crazy American design that I have not seen mentioned a whole lot despite being a true "X-Weapon".
The Vought XF5U "Flying Flapjack", intended for use in the US Navy in our timeline. What y'all think? You think the US Military might give this design a try? Realistically, with everything going on in TL-191 by the time of the Second Great War I still believe this aircraft might be nothing more than a prototype. Perhaps, however, it could see some action in the skies over Pacific against Japan or even against the Confederates. Again, in very small numbers if combat capable and I don't foresee it surviving use after the war due to the onset of jet propulsion and atomic weaponry.
So, I know everyone likes to talk about the inclusion of the American copy of the Me-262 into the war in North America. Gets a lot of attention and stuff. I would like to now draw your attention to a crazy American design that I have not seen mentioned a whole lot despite being a true "X-Weapon".
The Vought XF5U "Flying Flapjack", intended for use in the US Navy in our timeline. What y'all think? You think the US Military might give this design a try? Realistically, with everything going on in TL-191 by the time of the Second Great War I still believe this aircraft might be nothing more than a prototype. Perhaps, however, it could see some action in the skies over Pacific against Japan or even against the Confederates. Again, in very small numbers if combat capable and I don't foresee it surviving use after the war due to the onset of jet propulsion and atomic weaponry.
Agreed. Uniform design is a curious case. Germany wins in this world, but there is reason to believe, at least for me, that the uniform designs of their armies would develop roughly identically to the ones in our timeline. If anything, since Germany won their forces would be intact, not having to go through the same phase of disarmament and lack of funding for their military in our timeline. Imperial Germany would still devote time and resources to develop their armed forces over time, unlike Nazi Germany which had to rearm in a relatively short amount of time.
The most visible and obvious change to the German uniform that I can think of is that Nazi insignias and the like would not be a thing, instead being replaced with Imperial German or Prussian style insignia. To me, even in our timeline, the Nazis just plastered the swastika anywhere they could to lend their ideology, movement, and organizations an air of legitimacy and omnipresence. The iron cross was originally a Prussian decoration open to anyone to receive, but then the Nazis just stamped a swastika on it. Belt buckles and tunics were previously unadorned with Nazis symbols until they took power and started stamping that shit on everything.
In TL-191 this is an army that would still learn the lessons of the first world war however. We would still see a uniform that would reflect those changes in style and doctrine for its soldiers, so its very likely we'd see something similar to we see in our timeline, if not a bit different in some notable ways. And I do believe that we would still see the Stahlhelm from Germany, as well as its inevitable iterations over the years to modernize the design to what we recognize. Something like that could only have come out of Germany's experiences in the war, whether they won or lost.
Plus, its just easier to envision. Not everything has to change in alternate history, right?
When I read the Great War and Settling Accounts books, I kind of see the USN sailors dressed pretty much as they were OTL. I've had images in my mind of LT Sam Carsten on the bridge of the Josephus Daniels in an officer's khaki uniform, just as USN officers wore in WW II when aboard ship. When he and his officers go ashore, that's when the dress blues or the tropical whites (Undress whites) come out. SN George Enos and the other enlisted would be wearing blue dungarees aboard ship, and dress blue or white as appropriate when ashore.
When Turtledove mentions Marines, they're described as wearing some kind of forest green when they went ashore-either on the raid at Ocracoke Inlet or the Baja landing.
When Turtledove mentions Marines, they're described as wearing some kind of forest green when they went ashore-either on the raid at Ocracoke Inlet or the Baja landing.