Does anyone know where I could find the Order of Battle for the CSA and the USA at the start of the Second Great War? As I'm sure that someone would have spent the time to do so. I'm after it so I can wargame out the Battle of Pittsburgh and then the follow on the follow on Battle at Harrisburg*.
TL-191: Filling the Gaps
- Thread starter Craigo
- Start date
What's Birmingham Small Arms have to do with this? Also, to be honest, I've never been a big fan of the idea of Hughes being a Southener, since his grandfather (who lived until the 1920's BTW) was in the Union Army in real life.
Conversely, I could potentially see Albert Bond Lambert (of Charles Lindbergh fame) as a Confederate in TL-191, as his parents were from Virginia. And since his father worked in pharmaceutics, and since gasoline used to be bought from drug stores, it's not inconceivable that he could have developed an interest in internal combustion and its many applications.
I believe Birmingham Small Arms is mentioned in the books to be a maker of cars. Historically they made Motorcycles, so it's not too much of a Stretch that they made the jump to cars.
Yeah like Japanese companies did took make sense
This is a very good idea, wonder how would Listerine fare ITTL
I doubt Morrell would have to pull troops from elsewhere even if part of the army in Pittsburgh is captured because the terrain Patton would face going eastward is a mountainous mess until he gets to well into Pennsylvania. Patton's advance would slow to a crawl and with Morrell's admittedly somewhat degraded army, Morrell could win a series of hit-and-run style battles picking at Patton's flanks or detached forces until the balance of forces was sufficient to launch an all out attack.
This has been a bit of sticking point for me in general about the Second Great War. Why would Patton risk an offensive into Pittsburgh, when it is essentially a strategic cul-de-sac? He either has to force his way across the Appalachians to the east, which is going to be terrible armored country, or back out to Youngstown to mount a proper mechanized offensive into the relatively flat land of upstate New York. And equally importantly while Cleveland, Pittsburgh and to a lesser extent Cincinnati are big cities, they aren't war winning ones (OTL the 1940 census had them at 6, 10, and 17 respectively). Terrain-wise, going west at Lake Erie would be better than going east because the terrain to the west is massively better suited to maneuver warfare (being largely a plain until the Rockies) and there are even bigger cities that way too - Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, and Milwaukee (OTL 2, 4, 8, and 13 respectively).
bguy
Donor
Well IOTL 41% of US steel production during World War 2 occurred in or near Pittsburgh. Assuming the city developed similarly in TL-191 (and it's pretty much inevitable that Pittsburgh will be a major center of steel production given the mineral resources near it) that would certainly make it a very tempting target for the Confederates.
https://explorepahistory.com/displayimage.php?imgId=1-2-BF7
You're probably right about the infeasibility of driving much further east after Pittsburgh though. Maybe once the Confederates have taken Pittsburgh they would stand on the defense in Pennsylvania and launch their next offensive (in the spring of 1943) towards Chicago and Detroit.
I'm reading through the Settling Accounts saga now and, one thing that caught my interest was the idea raised by General Forest III with General Potter that they needed to launch a coup to remove President Featherston from office. If the military launched a coup and took power - I've been trying to work out how practically that would work. Whether you would use the Vice President Don Partridge to stop the rank & file of the Freedom Party from rioting, while you cleaned house as it were? Either way I suspect the USA will push for an unconditional surrender, but whether by removing Featherston from the top would improve the CSA's chances of ekeing out a draw.
I had another thought the other day following the aftermath of the Confederate surrender.
That is, what would happen to all the Confederate embassies and consulates around the world after the Confederate government surrendered?
More importantly, what would become of the ambassadors and their staff, support personnel, hired help, etc.?
Do they turn themselves in to the United States embassy in the host country? Would the people from the United States embassy show up and take over the embassy. Would the staffers and other support personnel flee and take their chances somewhere else?
Similarly, what would become of the embassies of other nations in Richmond upon the surrender of the Confederate government?
I mean, the Confederate government no longer exists. Therefore the host country no longer has an obligation to recognize them or host them.
What happens next?
That is, what would happen to all the Confederate embassies and consulates around the world after the Confederate government surrendered?
More importantly, what would become of the ambassadors and their staff, support personnel, hired help, etc.?
Do they turn themselves in to the United States embassy in the host country? Would the people from the United States embassy show up and take over the embassy. Would the staffers and other support personnel flee and take their chances somewhere else?
Similarly, what would become of the embassies of other nations in Richmond upon the surrender of the Confederate government?
I mean, the Confederate government no longer exists. Therefore the host country no longer has an obligation to recognize them or host them.
What happens next?
MaxGerke01
Banned
Id think it would all very much depend on the host countries previous relationship with the USA and the CSA.If it was somewhere in England,France,Russia,South Africa,Mexico or other countries the CSA had decent relations with they wouldnt have much to worry about and probably landed on their feet,However it we are talking Germany or other pro US countries things wouldnt go so easy for them for a while.Once Richomnd was captured Id imagine embassy staff there would be treated well by US forces.
I doubt that the US would take over those CSA embassies, but they might well move to shut them down - or ask their local allies to shut them down - where possible.
Still, this concept would make a potentially marvellous hook for a novel or short story - especially as I imagine former CSA embassies in Entente or neutral nations would rapidly become hubs for getaway efforts by Stalwarts who made North America too hot to hold them (Or opportunists looking to launder their war record and/or smuggle out assets).
Still, this concept would make a potentially marvellous hook for a novel or short story - especially as I imagine former CSA embassies in Entente or neutral nations would rapidly become hubs for getaway efforts by Stalwarts who made North America too hot to hold them (Or opportunists looking to launder their war record and/or smuggle out assets).
It struck me just the other day that the Second Great War would have taken an interesting turn had Great Britain decided to pull a volte face and join Germany against France & Russia (On the understanding that an alliance with the latter two had comprehensively failed to deliver), presumably on the understanding that Germany would allow GB a free hand against the United States.
How long this understanding would last in practice (and whether it would prevent Japan from turning on the British Empire in Asia or Italy from taking a slap at Austria-Hungary once the German Army was pulled deep enough into Russia) is an interesting question.
Now that I think on it, an Anglo-German of pact could play out in a number of ways, so I’ll have to give this idea some thought (I doubt it ends with a Liberation of Canada whatever the case though.
How long this understanding would last in practice (and whether it would prevent Japan from turning on the British Empire in Asia or Italy from taking a slap at Austria-Hungary once the German Army was pulled deep enough into Russia) is an interesting question.
Now that I think on it, an Anglo-German of pact could play out in a number of ways, so I’ll have to give this idea some thought (I doubt it ends with a Liberation of Canada whatever the case though.
Presumably the Confederate consulates and embassies in Germany would have had their staff deported. If not, they would all be imprisoned already, and then handed over to the Americans.
MaxGerke01
Banned
Right.Also by treated well I mean Entente diplomats in Richmond wouldnt be summarily executed or imprisoned indefinitely without charges.
MaxGerke01
Banned
One thing I have wondered about is that when it comes to relations between the UK and North America if the British public as a whole hates and dislikes Americans more than Americans hate and dislike the British or vice versa. Then again do the Confederate public admire and emulate the British more than they do the CSA or vice versa?
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My own characterisation of a Jackson Administration is effectively 'Grant in Grey' - i.e. a widely admired general who doesn't do quite so well as a politician (Though I suspect that Stonewall Jackson was eccentric enough to do even worse than U.S. Grant in terms of corruption, scandals & mismanagement, despite himself being scrupulously honest).
I don't think the topic has been tackled, as yet, so please feel free to take a shot!
I have a horrible suspicion that, at least in Timeline-191, the US-UK relationship can be categorised as a rivalry that slowly eclipses the Franco-British classic in terms of sheer traditional enmity; especially after the Great War, one imagines that Britain would regard the United States of America as THE Enemy (Since the American Front saw a far greater humiliation and made defeat on the European Front inevitable) ... right up until Germany dropped The Bomb on London.
While the United States would likely ease off a little on the vitriol after finally conquering Canada, I suspect that Great Britain's role in making the Confederate States viable and keeping it fighting through the Great War would leave more than enough scars to make relations between the two nations sufficiently 'difficult' that I have trouble imagining an Anglo-US rapprochement between the Wars barring some major Point of Divergence (At the least our American cousins would have to do better in the Pacific War - to make the British Empire think twice about a rematch - and Germany might have to make an even bigger mess of the Nicaragua Crisis or actually reach out to the CSA & Mexico at some point).
Basically the USA despises Great Britain, the British resent the (US) Americans success at their expense and the Confederates absolutely loathe the British tendency to treat them as a half-tame hound dog to be sicced on the United States as necessary ... even if they do love to make Billy Yank's life more miserable and desperately need British aid to claw back a little ground in the face of the that horrible, horrible imbalance between the Confederacy and the Northern Colossus.
Basically the Special Relationship is an especially nasty three-way in Timeline-191 (I'm quite convinced this timeline is, in many ways, a horror story of the American Civil War reaching out to catch up all the English-speaking peoples in a horrific cycle of bloodshed, grudge & reprisals almost amounting to a Hundred Years War of the 19th & 20th Centuries).
Thank Goodness Mr Turtledove wrote THE TWO GEORGES to help balance the scales! (Actually, I'd love to see his UNITED STATES OF ATLANTIS setting used as an excuse to show something very like the North American Union co-exist quite amicably with the United States, with only a certain sense of sibling rivalry after the last Atlantean 'buccaneers' - for which read 'Filibusters' - fail to prevent the formation of a Confederation from British Terranova).
Not really my line (I'm more of a rail guy), but hey, someone who is interested might notice at least.
I love the comparison of a 'Grant in Grey' and think it is entirely apt. Perhaps he was drafted into office as the incumbent died & he serves out the remainder of the term, retiring to write his memoirs & return to teach at VMI.
I’d suggest taking a look at the LIBERATING ALASKA articles on the Turtledove Wiki - while the story does not take place in Timeline 191, it does depict a Russian Alaska that endured into the 20th century and has at least a few place names worth borrowing (Although the LIBERATING ALASKA seems to have had a gold rush, which I don’t think the T-191 version did).
I have a few notions for FILLING THE GAPS in THE UNITED STATES OF ATLANTIS timeline, though nothing like a full history.
I really do enjoy those novels (and short stories), even if I remain disappointed that we don’t get a Crown Loyalist POV character to balance out Victor Radcliff’s take on the Atlantean Revolution (The way Roland Kersauzon helps balance our perspective on the French & Atlantean War).
Partly this is because of the fascination inherent to ‘Appalachia as Island Continent’, partly because we get to follow an unusually long sweep of time and partly because THE SCARLET BAND is a standing invitation to insert as many Conan Doyle references into the setting as possible (and not just ‘Helms’ and ‘Walton’ - Sir Arthur wasn’t a one series wonder, just ask Professor Challenger and the Brigadier Gerard!).
Thank You most kindly - my own take on things is that Jackson would be the figurehead for a Longstreet Administration 2.0 (Old Pete using Jackson’s popularity to make sure his successor wasn’t going to screw up Manumission, but obliged to turn a blind eye towards certain irregularities as quid pro quo for the support needed to keep the wheels turning on that controversial amendment).
So yes, Jackson almost certainly regards a chance to get back to schooling student as a blessed relief from having to suffer the slings & arrows of outrageous & outraged politicians.
MaxGerke01
Banned
All of that but Im also very curios about the Europe and Terranova of ttl in the late 19th and early 20th centuries looks like and any equivalents to WW1,WW2 and the Cold War...