TL-191: After the End

[CT23]

Overall, what are the US' jets like compared to OTL? I.E. similar/better/less than OTL's Eagles and Raptors?

 

[Ze Kaiser]

July 17, 1998 onwards—A massive earthquake and tsunami devastates German New Guinea [OTL Papua New Guinea<--------- Missing "]", killing over 2,000 people. A massive volume of assistance for the devastated region flows into the area from both the Germans and from the nearby member states of the CDS.

Just pointing out one tiny typo I found in case you ever plan to do a complied remastered edition. However, I have to say that this TL is definitely one of the best written, both grammatically and plot wise, on AH.com. I enjoy every second of reading it and always look forward to your next update.

 

[jycee]

I imagine there aren't enough Protestants left (given that they were all packing their bags in the 1950s and 60s) to form an Ulster Unionist Party...

How about a list of selected World Cup tournaments (sorry for lack of imagination):

This is my take on possible World Cups for TL-191. I used OTL (and George UKs proposal) as a base. Adjusted what was necessary to fit TL -191, and flipped some results/ hosts just for preference. It includes host, final results, and thrid place final results.

1950 – h. Brazil: Brazil 4-2 Austria-Hungary / Uruguay 3-1 Sweden. After a 16-year hiatus the third Association Football World Cup is organized. *

1954 – h. Germany: Germany 3-2 Austria-Hungary / Spain 3-1 Uruguay.

1958 – h. Sweden: Brazil 4-2 Sweden / Germany 5-2 Ukraine. First time Britain participates in world cup (unlike OTL, it is as a single team).

1962 – h. Argentina: Austria-Hungary 2-1 Brazil / Argentina 2-0 Portugal. AH’s victory helps solidify a true Greater-Austrian identity across the Empire, the two winning goals being scored by a Croat, Dražan Jerković, and a Czech, Josef Masopust.

1966 – h. Italy: France 3-2(aet) Germany / Portugal 2-1 France. A rather tense final, highly celebrated in France. Italy is the first country to host twice.

1970 – h. Colombia: Brazil 2-1 Italy / Germany 2 – 0 Uruguay.

1974 – h. Poland-Lithuania: Italy 2-1 Netherlands / Poland 1-0 USA. First cup to be co-hosted.

1978 – h. Chile: Argentina 3-1 Netherlands / Brazil 2-1 Italy.

1982 – h. Britain: Brazil 2-1 Germany / Britain 3 – 2 Austria-Hungary.

1986 – h. Mexico-Texas: Germany 3-2(aet) Argentina / Spain 4-2(aet) USA. The final is known for a record number of yellow and red cards issued. First World Cup with 24 participants.

1990 – h. France: Italy 1-0 Argentina / Portugal 2 – 0 Britain.

1994 – h. Brazil: Brazil 0-0 (4-3p) Italy / Austria-Hungary 1–0 Chile. Brazil is the second country to host for a second time.

1998 – h. Ezo-Korea: Netherlands 2-0 France / Austria-Hungary 2-1 Kamerun. First world cup held with 32 teams. First World Cup set in Asia

2002 – h. Spain: Italy 1-0 Germany / Britain 2-1 Ireland. An uneventful final overshadowed by the near-riots occurring the previous day during the 3rd place match.

2006 – h. USA: Britain 2-1 Netherlands / Elfenbeinkuste 4-1 Portugal

2010 – h. Tanganyika: Germany 2 – 1 Uruguay / USA 1 – 0 Spain. First World Cup hosted in Africa.

2014 – h. Russia

2018 – h. China - a controversial nomination winning the bid over Netherlands-Belgium.

*1930, and ‘34 are the same as OTL. Held in Uruguay and Italy. ’38 held in France was cancelled do to German/AH/Italian boycott.

 

[GeorgeUK]

Neither the Irish nor Northern Irish team are that great though, and Britain emerging as a force like Spain does OTL gives British patriotism a much-needed lift like Germany hosting the 2006 WC did OTL.

Here's my list of Britain-Ireland matches from WC tournaments and European Championships ITTL. (excluding 1982, as I posted that one previously).

WC 2002: Britain 1-1 Ireland (Britain win 3-2 on penalties) Round of 16
Euro 2012: Britain 4-0 Ireland Group Stage

 

[jycee]

Neither the Irish nor Northern Irish team are that great though, and Britain emerging as a force like Spain does OTL gives British patriotism a much-needed lift like Germany hosting the 2006 WC did OTL.

Here's my list of Britain-Ireland matches from WC tournaments and European Championships ITTL. (excluding 1982, as I posted that one previously).

WC 2002: Britain 1-1 Ireland (Britain win 3-2 on penalties) Round of 16
Euro 2012: Britain 4-0 Ireland Group Stage

You are right, Britain needs a much needed lift in TTL. Just edited for it. Still it takes them a while to get there. The Ireland thing, like including Quebec in one 3rd place final (now removed) was simply to highlight TL-191 differences. Though including A-H does it.
Speaking of which, Austria-Hungary has two good periods: the late 50s/early 60s, when in OTL Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia were top of their game. And the 90s when Croatia and Serbia were doing alright. So yeah, ironically their best players and source of unified pride will not be Austrian.

 

[Poor Little Rhode Island]

oh, my God..........................WAY too much alt soccer talk!

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Could you tell me what the presidents did after they left office? Did Hoover rehabiliate his image like OTL?

 

[MatthewFirth]

Those World Cup tournaments does seem slightly ASB. I would however suggest a football timeline based on TL-191 to explain it all.

 

[David bar Elias]

Terry DeFrancis, to me, seemed more like a tactical airpower type, like Maj. Gen. Elwood "Pete" Quesada, who commanded the XIX Tactical Air Command that supported Patton's 3rd Army OTL. Most of his air strikes seemed to be more tactical in nature, rather than strategic.

Ah, alright.

You might want to write LeMay in as the first CINC-SAC (or whatever they call it), especially if he oversaw the strategic bombing campaign in the Eastern Theater. (which also begs the question: what about guys like Doolittle, Ira Eaker, Carl Spaatz, etc, who were heavily involved in strategic bombing OTL?)

I would say that if Doolitle, Eaker, and Spaatz existed in TTL, they were probably more involved in tactical bombing operations, given the extent of the Second Great War's North American theater.

Another wonderful update, as always, and I want to concur with the comment that the cultural aspects ITTL are fascinating to read.

Thanks!

I've been wonder, how is the Bill of Rights treated by the US by 2000? There's a comment in the books about how the Supreme Court essentially shot the First Amendment in the head at the turn of the century, but you've mentioned that the US is finally starting to relax socially. Are there limits to things like free speech, or are Illinois Nazis allowed to march through Skokie (so to speak)?

By 2000 in TTL, US society is indeed more relaxed than it has been since the dawn of the twentieth century. A pro-Freedom Party group would likely run into a lot of restrictive local ordinances that would prevent them from marching legally in many locales throughout the country.

Thanks a ton for answering those questions, David !

No problem. Feel free to keep asking.

That's reassuring ! Can you give us some literary or movie examples of "Stupid Jetpack Featherston" and/or "Voodoo Freedomites" ? Perhaps in the next update or in an interlude of sorts ?

Yes, I think I can do that.

If I may ask a few more questions, picking up where TB left off :
- Could you also tell us what the political parties of France, Italy and Ireland are ? And some basic info on how their government's are doing (we already know of Ireland's deals with the US, but I'd like to hear more beyond that about these three countries).

Like Great Britain, France has been dominated by the political left since the end of the Second Great War, namely by the New Socialist Party. As of 2000, international political observers are speculating that the Ecological Party of France may gain control over the French government within a generation, owing to voter fatigue with the New Socialists.

In the Italian Empire, the main political parties include the center-left Socialist Party, the center-right Liberal Party, and the Agrarian Front, a peasant party.

There are two Arab parties in the Italian Empire: the Tunis-based Renewal Front, and the Tripoli-based National Democratic Party. There are also Berber and Jewish political parties (the Mizrachi movement represents the large North African Jewish communities within the Italian Empire.

Ireland is governed by a President, and as of 2000, the Irish Democratic Party (IDP), a center-right party dominates the country, with the center-left National Republican Party and the Ecological Party of Ireland (a vehicle for rural concerns) in opposition. Ireland in TTL is far more Americanized than in our world--there are clubs in Dublin that express support for the US Democrats, Socialists, and Republicans during American elections; the Fourth of July is an (unofficial) holiday in Ireland.

- Also, what about Spain and Portugal ?

The Spanish Republic is governed by a president, who serves one term: in the aftermath of the democratization of the country in the 1970s in TTL, there has been an upsurge in regionalist parties, with two regions, Andalusia and Catalonia, electing their own parliaments similar to Scotland's in OTL. The center-left dominated Spanish elections until the Tech Recession ushered in the center-right in the early 1990s. As of 2000, the Socialist Party, working in tandem with the growing Spanish Ecological Party, hopes to regain the presidency.

The Portuguese Federation is dominated at the federal level by the pro-business "Right Bloc", a coalition of center-right parties. The Right's power was momentarily reversed during the Tech Recession, with the brief ascendence of the Liberal Socialist Party.

- And how are the north European countries doing ?

In 2000 in TTL, the Scandinavian nations are dominated by their respective social democratic parties. Norway is still a staunch German ally in TTL, as is Finland (which has a Hohenzollern monarch on its throne).

I'll confess that I'm currently trying to organize the TL's fluff into a set of several pages on the wiki (there was just too much stuff on the main TL page). And I've decided to do a list of nations and political parties from the TL while I'm at it. That's why I'm asking.

Thanks! Much appreciated!

With a much more diverse US including a larger pool of talent, I wouldn't be surprised to see US Soccer being a regular contender, at least in the quarterfinals, with a finals appearance or two by 2014.

That being said, without baseball being as popular through the 1920-1970 era, a 40-48 team NFL isn't out of the question either, and thus would be a juggernaut when it comes to athletic money. Considering I don't think I read ONCE in all of TL-191 a mention of basketball, does it even exist? Or was it butterflied out? I'm pretty sure of a sporting hierarchy (by fan interest,) in the US as something like this:

1) American Football, 2) Ice Hockey, 3) Association Football, 4) Auto Racing, 5) Baseball.

I have baseball so low, because given it's dominance in the radio era OTL, it was radio that made it the "national pasttime," and thus would lack the staying power and tradition through the TV era.

Depending on the existence of basketball, I'd probably have it between Association Football and Auto Racing. Without nationwide prohibition of alcohol, a NASCAR analogue is butterflied out, so by "auto racing" I mean TTL's F1 and IndyCar.

Am I even remotely close, DBE? Following TL-191, then your continuation, this just seemed like a natural course.

That seems like a plausible setup for US sports in TTL. Basketball is popular in many large metropolitan areas, though American football is by far the dominant sport throughout the country.

Interesting thing would be that FIFA is a French organization - hence why British teams didn't play until the 1950s. However, here France suffers badly at the end of the SGW, would FIFA move out of France? I still think it would have the strength to stay the world's preferred sport. But perhaps a new world cup is not organized until the late 50s, this time likely by Germany and/or Brazil.

• We would likely see Briatin enter as a single team, not separate teams
• With how large the US is, and the demographic changes the later hald of the 20th century brings, it is likely it would be a regular top contender.
• Brazil and Germany would likely dominate much more than OTL, with larger populations (talent pool) on both. And Brazil being more devloped.
• AH could run either a national team, or separate teams ala Britian in OTL. However to aviod nationalistic sentiment my guess is AH would run a single team.
• African countries might be much stronger players than OTL. Would not surpise to see Tanganika or German Kamerun in quarter or semi finals often.

Also I always had the feeling American football evolved a bit differently in TTL (there was something mentioned about a type of pass being allowed). And in the absence of baseball, it would have likely been exported to elsewhere during the wars/occupation. Perhaps it is gaining a following in Asia and Russia.

The only other location where American football has gained a following in TTL is in China.

Overall, what are the US' jets like compared to OTL? I.E. similar/better/less than OTL's Eagles and Raptors?

Similar to OTL's Eagles and Raptors, through Stealth-type technology will be making its debut in the 2000s in TTL.

Just pointing out one tiny typo I found in case you ever plan to do a complied remastered edition. However, I have to say that this TL is definitely one of the best written, both grammatically and plot wise, on AH.com. I enjoy every second of reading it and always look forward to your next update.

Thank you! I'm glad you have enjoyed it so far.

Could you tell me what the presidents did after they left office? Did Hoover rehabiliate his image like OTL?

He did (and in TTL, he was not as badly remembered, since Hosea Blackford bore most of the blame for the worst effects of the Business Collapse).

I imagine there aren't enough Protestants left (given that they were all packing their bags in the 1950s and 60s) to form an Ulster Unionist Party...

How about a list of selected World Cup tournaments (sorry for lack of imagination):

1954: Germany 3-2 Austria-Hungary
1958: As OTL, also last World Cup to contain separate British teams, Ireland's first appearance
1962: Similar to OTL, first appearance of Great Britain team (eliminated in group stage)
1966 (Held in the US): France 3-2 Germany (aet)*
1982 (Held in Britain): First time Britain hosted the World Cup, also the combined British team's first venture from the group stages, despite losing to Ireland (Although they went into the game having secured qualification). Germany and Austria-Hungary ended up being regarded as the villains of the tournament (Think of Schumacher's foul on Battiston, plus the "Peace of Glasgow"**)
2010: Great Britain finally collected their first World Cup trophy, a victory made all the sweeter by beating Germany in the semifinals. Having won the 2008 European Championship (and going on to retain their title in 2012, as well as hosting the Olympics for the first time in over 100 years), national pride in Britain is booming once more.

*The "juge de ligne Britannique" is a legend in French football.
** The infamous West Germany-Austria match, in Glasgow instead of Gijon.

This is my take on possible World Cups for TL-191. I used OTL (and George UKs proposal) as a base. Adjusted what was necessary to fit TL -191, and flipped some results/ hosts just for preference. It includes host, final results, and thrid place final results.

1950 – h. Brazil: Brazil 4-2 Austria-Hungary / Uruguay 3-1 Sweden. After a 16-year hiatus the third Association Football World Cup is organized. *

1954 – h. Germany: Germany 3-2 Austria-Hungary / Spain 3-1 Uruguay.

1958 – h. Sweden: Brazil 4-2 Sweden / Germany 5-2 Ukraine. First time Britain participates in world cup (unlike OTL, it is as a single team).

1962 – h. Argentina: Austria-Hungary 2-1 Brazil / Argentina 2-0 Portugal. AH’s victory helps solidify a true Greater-Austrian identity across the Empire, the two winning goals being scored by a Croat, Dražan Jerković, and a Czech, Josef Masopust.

1966 – h. Italy: France 3-2(aet) Germany / Portugal 2-1 France. A rather tense final, highly celebrated in France. Italy is the first country to host twice.

1970 – h. Colombia: Brazil 2-1 Italy / Germany 2 – 0 Uruguay.

1974 – h. Poland-Lithuania: Italy 2-1 Netherlands / Poland 1-0 USA. First cup to be co-hosted.

1978 – h. Chile: Argentina 3-1 Netherlands / Brazil 2-1 Italy.

1982 – h. Britain: Brazil 2-1 Germany / Britain 3 – 2 Austria-Hungary.

1986 – h. Mexico-Texas: Germany 3-2(aet) Argentina / Spain 4-2(aet) USA. The final is known for a record number of yellow and red cards issued. First World Cup with 24 participants.

1990 – h. France: Italy 1-0 Argentina / Portugal 2 – 0 Britain.

1994 – h. Brazil: Brazil 0-0 (4-3p) Italy / Austria-Hungary 1–0 Chile. Brazil is the second country to host for a second time.

1998 – h. Ezo-Korea: Netherlands 2-0 France / Austria-Hungary 2-1 Kamerun. First world cup held with 32 teams. First World Cup set in Asia

2002 – h. Spain: Italy 1-0 Germany / Britain 2-1 Ireland. An uneventful final overshadowed by the near-riots occurring the previous day during the 3rd place match.

2006 – h. USA: Britain 2-1 Netherlands / Elfenbeinkuste 4-1 Portugal

2010 – h. Tanganyika: Germany 2 – 1 Uruguay / USA 1 – 0 Spain. First World Cup hosted in Africa.

2014 – h. Russia

2018 – h. China - a controversial nomination winning the bid over Netherlands-Belgium.

*1930, and ‘34 are the same as OTL. Held in Uruguay and Italy. ’38 held in France was cancelled do to German/AH/Italian boycott.

You are right, Britain needs a much needed lift in TTL. Just edited for it. Still it takes them a while to get there. The Ireland thing, like including Quebec in one 3rd place final (now removed) was simply to highlight TL-191 differences. Though including A-H does it.
Speaking of which, Austria-Hungary has two good periods: the late 50s/early 60s, when in OTL Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Yugoslavia were top of their game. And the 90s when Croatia and Serbia were doing alright. So yeah, ironically their best players and source of unified pride will not be Austrian.

Those World Cup tournaments does seem slightly ASB. I would however suggest a football timeline based on TL-191 to explain it all.

Thank you for the suggestions regarding a history of football in TTL. As someone who does not know that much about football (or sports in general), I'm willing to consider these lists of world cups canon, once everyone is in agreement.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

He did (and in TTL, he was not as badly remembered, since Hosea Blackford bore most of the blame for the worst effects of the Business Collapse).

Ah! That makes me happy! Poor Hosea Blackford though...
BTW, how is the Congresswoman/First Lady, Flora Hamburger Blackford, remembered? She's the wife of a president, AND the mother of one...

 

[David bar Elias]

Ah! That makes me happy! Poor Hosea Blackford though...
BTW, how is the Congresswoman/First Lady, Flora Hamburger Blackford, remembered? She's the wife of a president, AND the mother of one...

Extremely well. She's as well regarded as Winston Churchill is in our world.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Extremely well. She's as well regarded as Winston Churchill is in our world.

Great! Now, a little question. How do you view the 1948 election map? Which states would go which? Just asking...

 

[David bar Elias]

Great! Now, a little question. How do you view the 1948 election map? Which states would go which? Just asking...

It's another Democratic landslide, albeit a smaller one than the 1944 elections. The few states won by the Socialists are in the industrial midwest.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

It's another Democratic landslide, albeit a smaller one than the 1944 elections. The few states won by the Socialists are in the industrial midwest.

Alright. And Cuba, right? Plus, Dakota's safe Socialist, is it Soc in 1948?

 

[David bar Elias]

Alright. And Cuba, right? Plus, Dakota's safe Socialist, is it Soc in 1948?

Yes to both. The Socialist nominee also manages to narrowly win his home state of Iowa.

 

[Turquoise Blue]

Yes to both. The Socialist nominee also manages to narrowly win his home state of Iowa.

Alright. What about New Jersey, the home-state of Upton Sinclair? Plus, how much states did Stassen get on his second go around?

And is Illinois still named the Land of Lincoln, or does no state claim that?

 

[David bar Elias]

Alright. What about New Jersey, the home-state of Upton Sinclair? Plus, how much states did Stassen get on his second go around?

New Jersey goes Democratic, and Stassen only wins Minnesota.

And is Illinois still named the Land of Lincoln, or does no state claim that?

Not in TTL, no.

 

[Nerdlinger]

DBE -- What do you think of this for a present-day TL-191 (gridiron) football league? It's based partly on the few canon references to football teams, partly on Craigo's post here, and the rest is my invention. The modern American Football League incorporates the West Coast Football League and a revived version of the old Confederate Football League.

AMERICAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE

Atlantic Conference
North Division: Boston Yankees, Buffalo Braves, Montreal Royals, Ottawa Ospreys, Toronto Maple Leafs
South Division: Baltimore Orioles, Brooklyn Bulldogs, New York Gothams, Philadelphia Barrels, Washington Warriors

Northern Conference
East Division: Cincinnati Monitors, Cleveland Lakers, Detroit Wolverines, Indianapolis Indians, Pittsburgh Ironmen
West Division: Chicago Cardinals, Kansas City Cowboys, Milwaukee Brewers, Minnesota Saints, St. Louis Stallions

Southern Conference
East Division: Atlanta Chiefs, Charlotte Hornets, Habana Hurricanes, Miami Seahawks, Richmond Colts
West Division: Birmingham Barons, Dallas Rangers, Houston Stars, Memphis Mustangs, New Orleans Tigers

Pacific Conference
North Division: Portland Columbias, Sacramento Senators, San Francisco Seals, Seattle Sharks, Vancouver Cougars
South Division: Denver Bears, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dons, San Diego Marines, Tucson Sidewinders

I could go into a little more detail as to how the league evolved, if you like.

 

[Kaiser K]

How's Richmond doing? does it have some sort of special status, being the former capital of the Confederate States? did they tear down former Confederate Government buildings? or turn them into monuments? what about exsisting Confederate monuments and such, and how is Southern culture in general?

 

[Turquoise Blue]

How's Richmond doing? does it have some sort of special status, being the former capital of the Confederate States? did they tear down former Confederate Government buildings? or turn them into monuments? what about exsisting Confederate monuments and such, and how is Southern culture in general?

I would say no. In fact it won't be a special city for a while...
Tear them down, yeah.
Destroyed, I think...
And like OTL, I presume, in the face of MUCH stronger pressure to assimilate negating the 80 years of independence.