TL-191: After the End

4. Does the post-SGW TL 191 world have a popular craze for urban legends or conspiracy theories postulating that the Featherston regime had links to super-advanced tech or occult magic powers, analogous to the mythicizing treatment the Nazis received in the decades after WWII ? I'm really curious about this. :D

Freedom Zombies would make a great game series. :p
 

Flubber

Banned
Isn't the sheer size of the US ITTL going to cause various political and societal problems later on ?


That's somewhat linked to a question I have about this excellent TL.

Every time there's a war or unrest someplace, we read about how "X million people will emigrate over the next Y years" from the effected regions and their destinations are nearly always the US and Brazil. Here's an example from the last update:

This also marks the start of a massive wave of emigration from the Ottoman Empire, as millions begin to flee this civic breakdown. The Empire of Brazil and the United States receive the bulk of these refugees. Altogether, some seven million people leave the Ottoman Empire before the start of the Ottoman Dissolution in the 2010s.

There simply has to be some nasty side effects of such large scale population transfers. There's no way those numbers can even begin to be marginally assimilated during the time periods involved. Brazil and the US must be dotted with hundreds of ethnic enclaves full of people who don't speak the majority languages, who don't have marketable skills, and who have brought with them most of the sectarian bullshit they originally meant to flee. As with France's banlieues and for most of the same reasons, the shit should be hitting the fan in those many enclaves routinely.

The US and Brazil aren't the only ones who get hammered in this manner either. Hokkaido, an island slightly smaller than Ireland, somehow manages to accept another two (!!!) million deportees in three years from the JWR in the aftermath of the power struggle there.

The huge and seemingly trouble free population transfers in this TL are quite a poser.

That being said, the cultural aspects really make this time line stand out from the pack.
 
If we're talking about our own lives in the world of TL-191, I'd probably be born either in the Ottoman Empire or if my ancestors of TL-191 fled, probably somewhere in the Russian Republic or uber USA.
 
34: Thomas E. Dewey (Democratic) 1945-1953
1944: Charles W. La Follette (Socialist) & Harold Stassen (Republican)
1948: Henry A. Wallace (Socialist) & Harold Stassen (Republican)
35: Harry S. Truman (Democratic) 1953-1961
1952: Adlai Stevenson (Socialist) & Harold Stassen (Republican)
1956: W. Averell Harriman (Socialist) & Harold Stassen (Republican)
36: Hubert Humphrey (Socialist) 1961-1973
1960: John W. Bricker (Democratic) & Harold Stassen (Republican)
1964: Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr. (Democratic) & Walter Judd (Republican)
1968: James Rhodes (Democratic) & Bryson Briggs (Republican)
37: Joshua Blackford (Democratic) 1973-1981
1972: Terrance Hobson (Socialist) & Philip Ioannidis (Republican)
1976: Dwight O'Hare (Socialist) & George Sidney (Republican)
38: Morgan Reynolds (Republican) 1981-1989
1980: Mildred Morrell-Quigley (Democratic) & Theodore A. Abell (Socialist)
1984: Porter Schmitt (Democratic) & Robert Bronowski (Socialist)
39: Leo Enos (Socialist) 1989-1993
1988: Archibald Young (Democratic) & John Smith (Republican)
40: Thurston DeFrancis (Democratic) 1993-1997
1992: Alfred Turnbull (Socialist) & Patrick Gutierrez (Republican)
41: Patrick Gutierrez (Republican) 1997-TBD
1996: Jonathon Wyden (Socialist) & Thurston DeFrancis (Democratic)
 
I like that Humphrey in particular is respected for his achievements :) Kind of really uplifts a guy that didn't have a chance in OTL. :)

In TTL, he's certainly remembered as one of the best presidents in US history, alongside Washington, Jefferson, and Theodore Roosevelt.

Wow. I just got done finishing reading all the posts of this timeline and i must say bravo, you've done a good job at this.

Thanks!

Interesting to read about the cultural image of the POTUSes. Given what you've revealed, Lincoln would probably be seen as a borderline national martyr by most of US society during the 1990s.

Lincoln has quite the biopic in TTL.

I have a few questions regarding politics in this TL as well :

1. How is Austria-Hungary organized ? I am certain that it is a constitutional monarchy since at least the interwar period. But is it now (1990s) a federal monarchy, with its nationalities having their own member states in both halves of the monarchy ?

The Austro-Hungarian empires is organized something along the lines of the proposed United States of Greater Austria from our world (though not precisely along the lines of our world's proposal).

How are these potential MS represented, how does voting and everyday politics go in practice ? What are some of the political parties and factions of the monarchy ?

Austria-Hungary's main political parties include the Social Democratic Party, the Hungarian Social Democratic Party, the Agricultural Union (a peasant party that is analogous to our the ideology and scope of our world's Bulgarian Agrarian People's Union), the Czech Progressive Party, and smaller Bosniak, Croat, Jewish, Polish, Romanian, Serbian, Slovak, Slovene, and Ukrainian-launguage parties: some are conservative, while some minority groups are aligned with the different Social Democratic parties (for example, Austria-Hungary's Jews are generally represented either by the Mizrachi Party (representing the Jews sympathetic to TTL's Mizrachi movement), World Agudath Israel (which represents the empire's Hasidic and Orthodox Jews), and the Jewish Social Democratic Association Bund, a social-democratic, Yiddish-language party.

There is also an Austro-Hungarian Ecological Party.

Is the royal family liked, are they proactive in charity, etc. ? And, of course : Is Austria-Hungary politically stable beyond a surface assessment, averting the fate of the currently balkanizing Ottoman Empire ?

The Austro-Hungarian royal family are generally very popular, particularly as symbols of national unity. Austria-Hungary does have problems, but they are not headed for a collapse in TTL: they managed to resolve their most critical issues in the first half of the twentieth century in TTL, particularly the issues relating to languages, education, and political representation.

2. More or less the same questions about internal German politics, though I'm not awaiting an answer as detailed as with Austria-Hungary.

The dominant political parties in the German Empire are the Social Democratic Party and the Conservative Party. There is is also a growing Ecological Party of Germany that has emerged since the 1980s.

3. Isn't the sheer size of the US ITTL going to cause various political and societal problems later on ? The US has become a continent-spanning meganation (or, rather, like a huge collection of nations) - won't this cause some culture clashes later in the 21st century ? (I.e. Canadians and Caribbeans feeling "under the yoke of the Union's culture, which is erasing their own".)

Not too much in the way of political problems, given how taboo regionalism (much less secessionist sentiment) is in the United States in TTL.

4. Does the post-SGW TL 191 world have a popular craze for urban legends or conspiracy theories postulating that the Featherston regime had links to super-advanced tech or occult magic powers, analogous to the mythicizing treatment the Nazis received in the decades after WWII ? I'm really curious about this. :D

Yes, except that they're not aired on TTL's equivalent of the History Channel.

I'd be too - it certainly FEELS like it would exist, considering he was the first to actually use a nuke, much less managing to make one in the first place (and even in-universe, I'm sure historians and the public both would be amazed he managed to almost pull one out of his ass).

American historians have still not reached a consensus on how some of the Confederacy's more implausible successes came about.

That's somewhat linked to a question I have about this excellent TL.

Every time there's a war or unrest someplace, we read about how "X million people will emigrate over the next Y years" from the effected regions and their destinations are nearly always the US and Brazil. Here's an example from the last update:

SNIP

There simply has to be some nasty side effects of such large scale population transfers. There's no way those numbers can even begin to be marginally assimilated during the time periods involved. Brazil and the US must be dotted with hundreds of ethnic enclaves full of people who don't speak the majority languages, who don't have marketable skills, and who have brought with them most of the sectarian bullshit they originally meant to flee. As with France's banlieues and for most of the same reasons, the shit should be hitting the fan in those many enclaves routinely.

Your points about the problems regarding this wave of immigration to Brazil and the United States are well taken. I have edited the time scale, and will go back and edit the total numbers of people involved.

Out of the two nations, it's Brazil that has the closest TTL analogue to the banilieues, although the United States has its own issues regarding immigration.

The US and Brazil aren't the only ones who get hammered in this manner either. Hokkaido, an island slightly smaller than Ireland, somehow manages to accept another two (!!!) million deportees in three years from the JWR in the aftermath of the power struggle there.

The huge and seemingly trouble free population transfers in this TL are quite a poser.

A well-founded critique. :eek: I will edit the section about Hokkaido, and try to cover the other issues stemming from immigration in TTL in the next update.

That being said, the cultural aspects really make this time line stand out from the pack.

Thanks. I have found that they're perhaps the most enjoyable aspects to write in this ATL.

So did Curtis LeMay ever show up TTL? Having him as head of SAC's analog might have been interesting.

I could be wrong, but I believe Terry DeFrancis (from the Return Engagement series was meant to the TTL's analogue to LeMay.
 
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Who's the current Prime Minister of the UK? What are the UK's main parties? How are attitudes to GWII? Shame like OTL Germany? Or aloof like OTL Japan?
 
Who's the current Prime Minister of the UK? What are the UK's main parties? How are attitudes to GWII? Shame like OTL Germany? Or aloof like OTL Japan?

As of 2000, the current Prime Minister is Geoffrey Wright, of the Progressive Liberal Party, the successor to both the Conservative and Liberal parties. His government is the first majority-conservative government to hold office since before the Second Great War. Their largest competitor is the Labour Party.

Generally, the British remain ashamed and disgusted that their nation not only helped to perpetuate the Second Great War (and later used a superbomb), but that it was allied to the genocidal Featherston regime during the conflict.
 
Terry DeFrancis, to me, seemed more like a tactical airpower type, like Maj. Gen. Elwood "Pete" Quesada, who commanded the XIX Tactical Air Command that supported Patton's 3rd Army OTL. Most of his air strikes seemed to be more tactical in nature, rather than strategic.

You might want to write LeMay in as the first CINC-SAC (or whatever they call it), especially if he oversaw the strategic bombing campaign in the Eastern Theater. (which also begs the question: what about guys like Doolittle, Ira Eaker, Carl Spaatz, etc, who were heavily involved in strategic bombing OTL?)
 
Another wonderful update, as always, and I want to concur with the comment that the cultural aspects ITTL are fascinating to read.

I've been wonder, how is the Bill of Rights treated by the US by 2000? There's a comment in the books about how the Supreme Court essentially shot the First Amendment in the head at the turn of the century, but you've mentioned that the US is finally starting to relax socially. Are there limits to things like free speech, or are Illinois Nazis allowed to march through Skokie (so to speak)?
 
Another wonderful update, as always, and I want to concur with the comment that the cultural aspects ITTL are fascinating to read.

I've been wonder, how is the Bill of Rights treated by the US by 2000? There's a comment in the books about how the Supreme Court essentially shot the First Amendment in the head at the turn of the century, but you've mentioned that the US is finally starting to relax socially. Are there limits to things like free speech, or are Illinois Nazis allowed to march through Skokie (so to speak)?
I view TL-191 USA's attitude to free speech as similar to Britain's view of it. Free speech is an universal privilege, not a right. So if you abuse your privilege...
 
Thanks a ton for answering those questions, David ! :)

Yes, except that they're not aired on TTL's equivalent of the History Channel.

That's reassuring ! :D Can you give us some literary or movie examples of "Stupid Jetpack Featherston" and/or "Voodoo Freedomites" ? Perhaps in the next update or in an interlude of sorts ? ;)


If I may ask a few more questions, picking up where TB left off :
- Could you also tell us what the political parties of France, Italy and Ireland are ? And some basic info on how their government's are doing (we already know of Ireland's deals with the US, but I'd like to hear more beyond that about these three countries).
- Also, what about Spain and Portugal ?
- And how are the north European countries doing ?

I'll confess that I'm currently trying to organize the TL's fluff into a set of several pages on the wiki (there was just too much stuff on the main TL page). And I've decided to do a list of nations and political parties from the TL while I'm at it. That's why I'm asking. ;)
 
I imagine there aren't enough Protestants left (given that they were all packing their bags in the 1950s and 60s) to form an Ulster Unionist Party...

How about a list of selected World Cup tournaments (sorry for lack of imagination):

1954: Germany 3-2 Austria-Hungary
1958: As OTL, also last World Cup to contain separate British teams, Ireland's first appearance
1962: Similar to OTL, first appearance of Great Britain team (eliminated in group stage)
1966 (Held in the US): France 3-2 Germany (aet)*
1982 (Held in Britain): First time Britain hosted the World Cup, also the combined British team's first venture from the group stages, despite losing to Ireland (Although they went into the game having secured qualification). Germany and Austria-Hungary ended up being regarded as the villains of the tournament (Think of Schumacher's foul on Battiston, plus the "Peace of Glasgow"**)
2010: Great Britain finally collected their first World Cup trophy, a victory made all the sweeter by beating Germany in the semifinals. Having won the 2008 European Championship (and going on to retain their title in 2012, as well as hosting the Olympics for the first time in over 100 years), national pride in Britain is booming once more.

*The "juge de ligne Britannique" is a legend in French football.
** The infamous West Germany-Austria match, in Glasgow instead of Gijon.
 
I imagine there aren't enough Protestants left (given that they were all packing their bags in the 1950s and 60s) to form an Ulster Unionist Party...

How about a list of selected World Cup tournaments (sorry for lack of imagination):

1954: Germany 3-2 Austria-Hungary
1958: As OTL, also last World Cup to contain separate British teams, Ireland's first appearance
1962: Similar to OTL, first appearance of Great Britain team (eliminated in group stage)
1966 (Held in the US): France 3-2 Germany (aet)*
1982 (Held in Britain): First time Britain hosted the World Cup, also the combined British team's first venture from the group stages, despite losing to Ireland (Although they went into the game having secured qualification). Germany and Austria-Hungary ended up being regarded as the villains of the tournament (Think of Schumacher's foul on Battiston, plus the "Peace of Glasgow"**)
2010: Great Britain finally collected their first World Cup trophy, a victory made all the sweeter by beating Germany in the semifinals. Having won the 2008 European Championship (and going on to retain their title in 2012, as well as hosting the Olympics for the first time in over 100 years), national pride in Britain is booming once more.

*The "juge de ligne Britannique" is a legend in French football.
** The infamous West Germany-Austria match, in Glasgow instead of Gijon.

With a much more diverse US including a larger pool of talent, I wouldn't be surprised to see US Soccer being a regular contender, at least in the quarterfinals, with a finals appearance or two by 2014.

That being said, without baseball being as popular through the 1920-1970 era, a 40-48 team NFL isn't out of the question either, and thus would be a juggernaut when it comes to athletic money. Considering I don't think I read ONCE in all of TL-191 a mention of basketball, does it even exist? Or was it butterflied out? I'm pretty sure of a sporting hierarchy (by fan interest,) in the US as something like this:

1) American Football, 2) Ice Hockey, 3) Association Football, 4) Auto Racing, 5) Baseball.

I have baseball so low, because given it's dominance in the radio era OTL, it was radio that made it the "national pasttime," and thus would lack the staying power and tradition through the TV era.

Depending on the existence of basketball, I'd probably have it between Association Football and Auto Racing. Without nationwide prohibition of alcohol, a NASCAR analogue is butterflied out, so by "auto racing" I mean TTL's F1 and IndyCar.

Am I even remotely close, DBE? Following TL-191, then your continuation, this just seemed like a natural course.
 
I imagine there aren't enough Protestants left (given that they were all packing their bags in the 1950s and 60s) to form an Ulster Unionist Party...

How about a list of selected World Cup tournaments (sorry for lack of imagination):

1954: Germany 3-2 Austria-Hungary
1958: As OTL, also last World Cup to contain separate British teams, Ireland's first appearance
1962: Similar to OTL, first appearance of Great Britain team (eliminated in group stage)
1966 (Held in the US): France 3-2 Germany (aet)*
1982 (Held in Britain): First time Britain hosted the World Cup, also the combined British team's first venture from the group stages, despite losing to Ireland (Although they went into the game having secured qualification). Germany and Austria-Hungary ended up being regarded as the villains of the tournament (Think of Schumacher's foul on Battiston, plus the "Peace of Glasgow"**)
2010: Great Britain finally collected their first World Cup trophy, a victory made all the sweeter by beating Germany in the semifinals. Having won the 2008 European Championship (and going on to retain their title in 2012, as well as hosting the Olympics for the first time in over 100 years), national pride in Britain is booming once more.

*The "juge de ligne Britannique" is a legend in French football.
** The infamous West Germany-Austria match, in Glasgow instead of Gijon.

Interesting thing would be that FIFA is a French organization - hence why British teams didn't play until the 1950s. However, here France suffers badly at the end of the SGW, would FIFA move out of France? I still think it would have the strength to stay the world's preferred sport. But perhaps a new world cup is not organized until the late 50s, this time likely by Germany and/or Brazil.
  • We would likely see Briatin enter as a single team, not separate teams
  • With how large the US is, and the demographic changes the later hald of the 20th century brings, it is likely it would be a regular top contender.
  • Brazil and Germany would likely dominate much more than OTL, with larger populations (talent pool) on both. And Brazil being more devloped.
  • AH could run either a national team, or separate teams ala Britian in OTL. However to aviod nationalistic sentiment my guess is AH would run a single team.
  • African countries might be much stronger players than OTL. Would not surpise to see Tanganika or German Kamerun in quarter or semi finals often.

Also I always had the feeling American football evolved a bit differently in TTL (there was something mentioned about a type of pass being allowed). And in the absence of baseball, it would have likely been exported to elsewhere during the wars/occupation. Perhaps it is gaining a following in Asia and Russia.
 
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