TL-191: After the End

[David bar Elias]

On this topic, since a Stan Lee analogue exists, what are the statuses of the following comic book/strip pioneers?
--Carl Barks (Disney comics)
--Will Eisner
--Lou Fine
--Bill Finger (original Batman co-creator)
--Gardner Fox (original Flash co-creator)
--Max Gaines (Created the first color template that would become a standard in comic books.)
--William Gaines (Son of the above, and longtime editor of EC Comics and MAD Magazine.)
--Al Jaffee
--Bob Kane (original Batman/Green Lantern co-creator)
--Robert Kanigher (Barry Allen Flash co-creator)
--Jack Kirby
--Bernard Krigstein
--Harry Lampert (original Flash co-creator)
--William Moulton Marston (original Wonder Woman co-creator)
--Sheldon Mayer
--Martin Nodell (original Green Lantern co-creator)
--H.G. Peter (original Wonder Woman creator)
--Antonio Prohías (creator of "Spy Vs. Spy")
--Julius Schwartz
All persons listed born on or before 1922.

I’m replying with the caveat that developments concerning these persons are not what Turtledove himself envisioned, but is the case in TTL.

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The analogue to Will Eisner in TTL was Julian Eisner, born on a different date in comparison to our world. Eisner grew up in a poor household, and eventually went to work in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. With the outbreak of the Second Great War in 1941, Eisner enlisted in the US Army. He was injured in combat at Fredericksburg, and returned to New York City after several months in a military hospital. Eisner spent the rest of the war working at the Brooklyn Navy Yard.

After the end of the Second Great War, Eisner took advantage of the Dewey administration program supporting veterans who wished to attend university to obtain an English degree and teaching certificate. He would spend over 40 years teaching English to new immigrants who enrolled in the New Citizens program offered by the City University of New York system. Eisner retired from teaching in 1992, and, along with several close friends, moved into a Commonwealth Retirement Community. First established in New York City in the early 1980s as a public-private partnership involving the city government, Commonwealth Retirement Communities were intended to provide high living standards, green spaces, and other amenities to retirees who remained in New York City. He died in 2007.

By 2022, one of Eisner’s granddaughters, Susannah Eisner Bettelheim, is an aspiring playwright and fiction writer in New York City.

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The analogue to Carl Barks, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Unlike in our world, Barks did not have hearing problems, and was able to complete high school. After finishing high school, he moved to San Francisco and tried his hand at various jobs. Eventually, he found steady work as a clerk for a shipping company. Barks worked at this company, in various positions, for over forty years, before retiring in the mid-1960s.

Throughout his time in San Francisco, Barks took art lessons, and painting became his one leisure activity. He specialized in landscape painting, especially of San Francisco and nearby areas. Barks did this for his own personal enjoyment; it wasn’t until after the end of the Fourth Pacific War, during which he had stubbornly remained in San Francisco while many of his friends and neighbors fled inland, that Barks decided to try to sell his work. Barks made enough money selling his by now large private collection of paintings to be able to afford a private home in San Diego, where he spent the rest of his life, and where he continued to produce landscape and seascape paintings. He died in 2005.

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Lou Fine doesn’t exist in TTL.

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Sheldon Mayer doesn’t exist in TTL.

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Antonio Prohías doesn’t exist in TTL. However, an analogue to the Prohías family does exist, and still lives in Cuba by 2022, having survived the Freedom Party dictatorship, Second Great War, and the Cuban Insurgency. The family prospered after the end of the Second Great War, after two brothers in the family founded a successful hotel in Havana. This hotel and attached dance hall and casino, the Grand Imperial, is still owned by the Prohías family by 2022.

 

[rvbomally]

this

THIS IS GREAT!!! I wonder what is the technological level of the alien forces.

DBE might have a different view, but I imagined the aliens in question being the Race, who ITTL chose not to invade Tosev-III. Given the Race's very slow development, I imagine the aliens the expeditionary force faced ITTL have the same technological capabilities the Race had in the Worldwar series.

 

[CalBear]

Holy cow did Japan go full-retard I'm not sure if I can understand that but otherwise I can dig the rest of the outcome.

DO NOT use offensive terms.

 

[DeltaEnterprise252]

DBE might have a different view, but I imagined the aliens in question being the Race, who ITTL chose not to invade Tosev-III. Given the Race's very slow development, I imagine the aliens the expeditionary force faced ITTL have the same technological capabilities the Race had in the Worldwar series.

Wouldn't that give the expeditionary force a massive advantage given that the Race is almost certainly less advanced than the humans at this point in this TL?

 

[Spencer Pease]

​

The President shares most of the fears of her fellow Americans on what the Interstellar Expedition might discover, but also wonders if there might be opportunities to pursue other, more terrestrial goals. To somehow bring the rest of the Anglosphere into the Union, ideally followed by the rest of the CDS and the Council of the Western Hemisphere, ideally followed by the European Community and OTO, ideally followed, eventually, by the rest of the world. Human civilization, united at last in a more perfect Union, under the benevolence of the US Constitution.

The President hasn’t shared these ambitions with anyone else, and is realistic enough to know that such a grand vision would need more time to accomplish than would be possible under two presidential terms. But with a possible interstellar conflict on the horizon, she genuinely believes that the USA must do everything to strengthen its power, both on world and off world.

It’s what Theodore Roosevelt would do, after all.

A unified humanity under TTL’s US? Count me in!

 

[rvbomally]

Wouldn't that give the expeditionary force a massive advantage given that the Race is almost certainly less advanced than the humans at this point in this TL?

Not quite. The humans would be fighting the Race in their home system, while they would be cut off from any sort of reinforcement or resupply. The humans don't have such a great technological advantage that the Race can't do damage against them. In many ways, it is like the Worldwar situation, with the species reversed. But in the grand scope of things, the Race are toast.

 

[PariahNihil]

DO NOT use offensive terms.

I wasn't aware that quoting the movie Tropic Thunder was coming across as offensive, won't do it again...

 

[jycee]

TL-191: After After the End​

Here is my cover of what this world would look like in 2162, 300 years after the PoD. This was made in close conjunction with David bar Elias. Many thanks to him for his help, and providing the text below and on the map!

---

This is a great epilogue! Interesting to see the Middle East remains quite fragmented 130years after the dissolution of the Ottomans.

 

[David bar Elias]

This is a great epilogue! Interesting to see the Middle East remains quite fragmented 130years after the dissolution of the Ottomans.

The region’s political fragmentation by 2162 is a legacy of the Ottoman Dissolution and armed interventions by multiple outside powers.

 

[ThirdyLovesAH]

Not quite. The humans would be fighting the Race in their home system, while they would be cut off from any sort of reinforcement or resupply. The humans don't have such a great technological advantage that the Race can't do damage against them. In many ways, it is like the Worldwar situation, with the species reversed. But in the grand scope of things, the Race are toast.

The only thing that the Race does not possess is the speed of developing weapons to counter the humans.

 

[PariahNihil]

The only thing that the Race does not possess is the speed of developing weapons to counter the humans.

If the Race hypothetically captured an example of human technology would they be incapable of backwards-engineering it? I don't think Turtledove ever had a chance to show that sort of thing but like if they had a working human a-bomb (or something that they could conceivably create yet hadn't seen the point in their own technological development) were they so daft that they couldn't figure out what they were dealing with?

 

[Born in the USSA]

If the Race hypothetically captured an example of human technology would they be incapable of backwards-engineering it? I don't think Turtledove ever had a chance to show that sort of thing but like if they had a working human a-bomb (or something that they could conceivably create yet hadn't seen the point in their own technological development) were they so daft that they couldn't figure out what they were dealing with?

They could probably do it with most things but Homeward Bound mentions that the Race had to basically create an entirely new branch of theoretical physics from scratch to even comprehend how the human FTL drive worked.

 

[jycee]

The region’s political fragmentation by 2162 is a legacy of the Ottoman Dissolution and armed interventions by multiple outside powers.

I'd assume that by 2162 - about 130 years after the Ottoman Dissolution - the borders have stabilized and there are very few hang-ups from the fragmentation; if most Levantine states have joined the EC, is there significant economic (and political) cooperation between the multiple mini-states? And what is the relationship between these and the larger states around them: The Kingdom of Turkey, The Commonwealth of Zion, Kurdistan, the Emirate of Ramadi, and Basra?

On another note:

What is the status of the multiple monarchies worldwide by 2162? Have the North African and Middle Eastern monarchs, in Morrocco, Egypt, Persia, etc. followed their European counterparts into ceremonial and constitutional roles, or do they retain significant power? And how popular are these monarchies?

How democratic have the Russian and Chinese Republics become? It seems both have had stable multi-party governments since the 2000s; has this remained so?

And, is Ryukyu independent? I remember it was occupied by the US and at one point it gained home rule. Is this an OTL Puerto Rico-style "free association" or independence? If it is independent, how do you picture the relationship between Ryukyu and Ezo? And their relationship with Korea?

 

[Burnsie]

I'd assume that by 2162 - about 130 years after the Ottoman Dissolution - the borders have stabilized and there are very few hang-ups from the fragmentation; if most Levantine states have joined the EC, is there significant economic (and political) cooperation between the multiple mini-states? And what is the relationship between these and the larger states around them: The Kingdom of Turkey, The Commonwealth of Zion, Kurdistan, the Emirate of Ramadi, and Basra?

On another note:

What is the status of the multiple monarchies worldwide by 2162? Have the North African and Middle Eastern monarchs, in Morrocco, Egypt, Persia, etc. followed their European counterparts into ceremonial and constitutional roles, or do they retain significant power? And how popular are these monarchies?

How democratic have the Russian and Chinese Republics become? It seems both have had stable multi-party governments since the 2000s; has this remained so?

And, is Ryukyu independent? I remember it was occupied by the US and at one point it gained home rule. Is this an OTL Puerto Rico-style "free association" or independence? If it is independent, how do you picture the relationship between Ryukyu and Ezo? And their relationship with Korea?

I believe David said Ryukyu is a U.S. state as of TTL’s 2022

 

[David bar Elias]

I'd assume that by 2162 - about 130 years after the Ottoman Dissolution - the borders have stabilized and there are very few hang-ups from the fragmentation; if most Levantine states have joined the EC, is there significant economic (and political) cooperation between the multiple mini-states? And what is the relationship between these and the larger states around them: The Kingdom of Turkey, The Commonwealth of Zion, Kurdistan, the Emirate of Ramadi, and Basra?

On another note:

What is the status of the multiple monarchies worldwide by 2162? Have the North African and Middle Eastern monarchs, in Morrocco, Egypt, Persia, etc. followed their European counterparts into ceremonial and constitutional roles, or do they retain significant power? And how popular are these monarchies?

How democratic have the Russian and Chinese Republics become? It seems both have had stable multi-party governments since the 2000s; has this remained so?

And, is Ryukyu independent? I remember it was occupied by the US and at one point it gained home rule. Is this an OTL Puerto Rico-style "free association" or independence? If it is independent, how do you picture the relationship between Ryukyu and Ezo? And their relationship with Korea?

By 2162, the successor states of the former Ottoman Empire in the area of OTL Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon generally cooperate through the agencies and government structures of the European Community, although there are still peace zones manned by EC peacekeeping forces separating some successor states. Economic prosperity gradually returned to the region during the 21st Century. The level of military power differs among these successor states: the Christian, Sunni, and two Shiite states located in the area of OTL Lebanon, as well as the Alawite state further to the north, each have larger militia forces in comparison to the city states located in the rest of the areas of OTL Syria and Jordan.

It took many years in the 21st Century, through Austro-Hungarian and German diplomacy, for the successor states to normalize diplomatic relations with each other. This has been achieved by 2162. The Kingdom of Turkey and Commonwealth of Zion have consular offices in the other successor states that joined the EC.

The Kingdom of Turkey and Commonwealth of Zion are both rivals in the region. Since the Ottoman Dissolution, different governments in the Kingdom of Turkey have had ambitions to restore some measure of Turkish hegemony in the Middle East, in the name of furthering political integration for the European Community, of course. Nothing has come of these goals by 2162, since no other post-Ottoman successor state in the Middle East wants a restoration of Turkish power in the region.

The Republic of Kurdistan is one of the most powerful post-Ottoman successor states. Kurdistan has cordial diplomatic ties with most of the other successor states, especially the Commonwealth of Zion and the Syrian, Lebanese, and Jordanian city states. Kurdistan has normal diplomatic ties with both Turkey and Persia, though these three countries are wary of each other. Kurdistan has close diplomatic ties to Bharat and Russia by 2162, as these countries provided support for Kurdish militias during the Ottoman Dissolution.

The Emirate of Ramadi considers itself the true successor to the Ottoman Empire, and refuses to recognize the independence of any of the other successor states in the region. The Emirate of Ramadi originated as a large refugee state for Sunni refugees during the Ottoman Dissolution. The various military governments of the emirate have not tried to wage war against their neighbors since the end of the Ottoman Dissolution, beyond rounds of skirmishing. By 2162, the emirate’s political, military, and religious leaders are not eager to fight a full scale war against Kurdistan or Persia or Turkey, much less against a coalition.

The Republic of Basra remains an ally of Persia by 2162. The citizens and government of Basra prefer the continuation of this arrangement. No one in Basra wants a restoration of Turkish power, or the expansion of Bharati power.

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By 2162, Morocco, Egypt, and Persia are constitutional monarchies, although the level of actual monarchical power in each country differs. The levels of popularity for the ruling dynasties in each state varies depending on local circumstances, but there has not been an attempt in any of these countries to remove their respective dynasties.

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China and Russia both have republican systems of government by 2162. Russia has four main competing political parties, while China has three competing political parties. Russia and China are not authoritarian states by 2162, although the governments of these countries, as elsewhere in the world, enjoy a fairly wide latitude when it comes to enforcing the law.

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The Ryuku Islands are a US state by 2162. The new President of the United States hopes to eventually replicate this development on the Japanese mainland, once the Ecological Union is defeated and the US begins reconstruction efforts.

 

[David bar Elias]

On this topic, since a Stan Lee analogue exists, what are the statuses of the following comic book/strip pioneers?
--Carl Barks (Disney comics)
--Will Eisner
--Lou Fine
--Bill Finger (original Batman co-creator)
--Gardner Fox (original Flash co-creator)
--Max Gaines (Created the first color template that would become a standard in comic books.)
--William Gaines (Son of the above, and longtime editor of EC Comics and MAD Magazine.)
--Al Jaffee
--Bob Kane (original Batman/Green Lantern co-creator)
--Robert Kanigher (Barry Allen Flash co-creator)
--Jack Kirby
--Bernard Krigstein
--Harry Lampert (original Flash co-creator)
--William Moulton Marston (original Wonder Woman co-creator)
--Sheldon Mayer
--Martin Nodell (original Green Lantern co-creator)
--H.G. Peter (original Wonder Woman creator)
--Antonio Prohías (creator of "Spy Vs. Spy")
--Julius Schwartz
All persons listed born on or before 1922.

The analogue in TTL to Max Gaines was Max Ginzberg, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Unlike his counterpart from our world, he did not suffer a childhood accident. He worked several jobs in New York City before settling down as a haberdasher.

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William Gaines doesn’t exist in TTL.

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The analogue to William Moulton Marston in TTL was Moulton Marston, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. In 1914, while a student at Harvard, he was drafted into the US Army, and was wounded in combat in 1915. After recovering, he returned to Harvard and eventually completed an English degree, although he also had a personal interest in classical history and mythology. Marston would have a career as a professor of literature at Harvard, specializing in early 19th Century US literature and poetry. He wrote well-received biographies of Nathaniel Hawthorne and Edgar Allan Poe. He lived far longer than his counterpart from our world, passing away in 2002.

By 2022, Marston is best known for his novel Ichabod, which was written in the 1970s but unpublished during his lifetime. The novel, influenced by the Nihilist Wave, was a sequel to Washington Irving’s The Legend of Sleepy Hollow, though much more of a horror story than its predecessor. It was published posthumously in 2003 and was adopted into an animated film in 2010.

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The analogue in TTL to HG Peter was George Peter, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. His family left California during the Second Mexican War, and eventually settled in Reno, Nevada.

George Peter initially found work in a hotel in Reno, known as the Westbound, which he later managed. His oldest son, Harry, would later turn the Westbound into a casino and saloon, following the legalization of gambling in Nevada in the early 1930s. By 2022, the Westbound Hotel and Saloon is still in business in Reno, and is still owned and managed by the Peter family.

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The analogue in TTL to Gardner Fox was Cooper Fox, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He worked in New York City as a lawyer, interrupted during the Second Great War when he volunteered for New York City’s civil defenses. He returned to legal work in 1944, and retired in 1972.

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The analogue in TTL to Robert Kanigher, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He served in the US Navy during the Second Great War. After the end of the SGW, Kanigher returned to New York City, where he eventually found a job as a file clerk with the city government. He retired in 1975 after winning the national lottery.

 

[Burnsie]

If I remember correctly, the US attempted to annex Texas in the 2040’s? What were the lasting political impacts of that?

 

[David bar Elias]

If I remember correctly, the US attempted to annex Texas in the 2040’s? What were the lasting political impacts of that?

The failure of the first referendum on Texas rejoining the Union in 2044 led to a temporary decline in the popularity of President Eleanor Lehrer and the Democratic Party. The failure of this referendum was one of the factors in the victory of the Socialist Party in the 2044 presidential election.

An attempt to organize a second referendum on Texas rejoining the Union for the Tricentennial celebrations in 2076 failed due to a breakdown in negotiations.

The third attempted referendum on Texas rejoining the Union took place in 2165, following the return of the survivors from the Interstellar Expedition. This referendum succeeded in passing by a substantial margin. Texas was readmitted into the Union on July 4, 2167.

 

[David bar Elias]

DBE might have a different view, but I imagined the aliens in question being the Race, who ITTL chose not to invade Tosev-III. Given the Race's very slow development, I imagine the aliens the expeditionary force faced ITTL have the same technological capabilities the Race had in the Worldwar series.

If the Intersellar Expedition did in fact go to Tau Ceti, there’s no guarantee that the civilization found on Home would be the same as in the Worldwar universe.

Of course, the Race were not the only aliens mentioned in the Worldwar series. There are at least two other planets that the Interstellar Expedition may have visited, instead of Home.

 

[Spencer Pease]

Not sure if you knew about this, but here’s a tie-in to the 2162 map curtesy of kyuzoaoi on DA:

December 2162.

The United States President received reports on her mobile device about multple chemical weapons attacks in Sapporo, Seoul, Shanghai, and even Moscow. 1204 people died of poison gas, mostly on the underground train stattions At first, the intelligence governments could not determine who was responsible, until a shootout of radical Ecoists in the American state of Ryukyu proved the worst fears: the Ecological Union in Japan is mobilizing its All-Volunteer Ecological Brigades for a "final liberation". Now with the carte blanche the American-Russian-Chinese block needed, the six-nation coalition finally launched the Operation to free South Japan.

The Republic of Ezo, for its part, had renamed itself the Republic of Japan, keeping its flag but now claiming most of Japan not occupied by Korea or the United States. The other powers reluctantly agreed, knowing that at least they can compete influence on who they can woo Sapporo the most.

January 6, 2163 was the start of the invasion. The coalition knew that the Ecoists have prepared biological, chemical, and even atomic weaponry, as well as heavy anti-aircraft defenses. These have been taken care of by drone and kinetic strikes, plus aerial bombing and patrols to establish air superiority. Next, the Oceanic Treaty Organization forces launched an amphibious and dropship assault on Japanese cities, destroying Ecoist resistance and militias with great difficulty.

It was later learned that the Ecoists have stashed sunbombs in what used to be Kyoto, and planned to blow it up, so the Brazilian Fusileiros Navais launched a search operation that disabled the sunbombs, but against given the fighting spirit of the Ecoists, with great casualties.

The Chinese for their part, had invaded the former Tokyo, now called Reiichi by the Ecoists, and engaged on house-to-house fighting with the ferocity unseen during the Second Great War.

By March 2163, the Ecoists have been largely defeated, reduced to a few strongholds, and starving. The Ecoist Collective leadership waged a scorched earth campaign, but the OTO anticipated it. For the first time in centuries, the Americans reintroduced their infamous tactics dealing with "francs-tireurs". The Ecoists used this as propaganda, along with their miniscule supporters abroad, but given that Ezo or the Republic of Japan launched their own propaganda campaign, showing the decrepit farmscrapers, desolate farmland, starving citizens and such, it turns that by 2162, the Ecoist Union had 40 million people, less than 56 million of Ezo. Charity campaigns raised millions to starving South Japanese children, people are offering reconstruction, and the other powers had tried and curbed their excesses.

Finally by April 2163, the last of the Collective hideouts had been captured by Russian Spetsnaz forces in the Hokuriku region, and the surviving leaders have been sent to trial abroad. Unsurpisingly they were given life sentences. After that, most of the Ecoists surrendered, with the remaining diehards are now being pursued by intelligence services to be hunted down.

Meanwhile, the Chinese have been reluctant to give Tokyo back to Ezo, showing the brutality of the Ecoist defenders. Something must be done to make their sacrifice matter. But the Americans, Brazilians, and Koreans are also eager to demand Ezo, now Japanese reparations, in which Sapporo saying that they have no responsibility to do so. As Japanese imperialist and workerist ideology is long discredited and banned and Japanese Ecoism is fast heading to this stage, Sapporo said that the southern Japanese should be seen as normal people now. Political bickering continued, and Ezo wants the rest of the coalition to leave Japan.

But finally in 2164, Sapporo may now have its chance to force the withdrawal of the other countries. Unfortunately, this is because of another tragedy, though the lessons of the anti-Ecoist War will now be applied during the first war between human and alien.