TL-191: After the End

What became of boxing in this world? Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Joe Frazier-for that matter, Elijah Muhammad and Malcolm X?

By 2022, boxing is a popular sport across the United States.

I’m not sure if Jack Johnson exists in the world of TL-191. However, Joe Louis, Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali don’t exist in TTL.

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The analogue to Elijah Muhammad in TTL was Robert Poole, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He never left the CSA during his life, and worked in whatever job he could find to support his family. He was killed during the Destruction.

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Malcolm X doesn’t exist in TTL.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
As speculated by others, they would wholly be involved in invading Haiti as well as playing a major role in the Destruction there. Not only that, but they'll extend the program to their own blacks at the insistence of Featherston and disarm black soldiers, unlike IOTL where the Anti-Haitianism of the Trujillo era remains as being also colorist in nature at most, which sadly persists today. Afro-Cubans were going to be next, if not concurrently alongside their white counterparts. Bahamians were most definitely next as well. When it comes to the other parts of the Caribbean held by their allies, even evil will have its own standards there.
Were Afro Cubans explicitly left alone in the books ? I always got the impression that protecting them if not the main reason was one of the main reason Castro and other white Cubans were fighting the Freedomites ? Any society were blacks were in charge or seen as being at least as human as non blacks would draw Freedomite ire. If victorious the Confederates would probably have a much easier time extending their "program" into the Caribbean and Latin and South America before they tried to get Europe to do it in Africa but there is no reason to not believe that Featherston ,Pinkard and other top Confederates were not being influenced by other psuedo scientific ideas present in scientific racism which so influenced Hitler,Himmler and other top Nazis. That would lead to the idea that blacks had to be completely removed from the Earth.
 
I’m not sure if Jack Johnson exists in the world of TL-191.

Jack was born in 1878 so he meets the cut off, but he'd be in Confederate Texas throughout his life unless he somehow made his way north. It probably wouldn't matter how boxing is in the CSA, since it's probably a safe bet Jack would've died sometime after the FGW.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
Jack was born in 1878 so he meets the cut off, but he'd be in Confederate Texas throughout his life unless he somehow made his way north. It probably wouldn't matter how boxing is in the CSA, since it's probably a safe bet Jack would've died sometime after the FGW.
What is the cut off ? Also how free were blacks to move within the CSA before the Freedomites ?If he got to Kentucky or Cuba maybe he was ok ?
 
Whats is the cut off ? Also how free were blacks to move within the CSA before the Freedomites ?If he got to Kentucky or Cuba maybe he was ok ?

David's got a cutoff for OTL figures at around 1922.

It's not like the CSA valued their Black population so I doubt they'd be sad to see them go, but the pre-SGW Americans weren't exactly keen on taking in Confederate Blacks either and it's unlikely they'd have anywhere else to go.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
David's got a cutoff for OTL figures at around 1922.

It's not like the CSA valued their Black population so I doubt they'd be sad to see them go, but the pre-SGW Americans weren't exactly keen on taking in Confederate Blacks either and it's unlikely they'd have anywhere else to go.
Thanks I knew there was such a date but wasnt sure what it was.I know how the Confederates were and despite hating blacks they still have a sense of ownership and control over them, But if we are talking about someone as strong and industrious as Jack Johnson he may have been one of the exceptions to the rule and managed to escape some way.
 
Were Afro Cubans explicitly left alone in the books ? I always got the impression that protecting them if not the main reason was one of the main reason Castro and other white Cubans were fighting the Freedomites ? Any society were blacks were in charge or seen as being at least as human as non blacks would draw Freedomite ire. If victorious the Confederates would probably have a much easier time extending their "program" into the Caribbean and Latin and South America before they tried to get Europe to do it in Africa but there is no reason to not believe that Featherston ,Pinkard and other top Confederates were not being influenced by other psuedo scientific ideas present in scientific racism which so influenced Hitler,Himmler and other top Nazis. That would lead to the idea that blacks had to be completely removed from the Earth.
Oh, sorry to give the impression Afro-Cubans were left alone. Of course the rebellion was happening there. Should've written that out better. But I was trying to imply that the Freedomites would've had a harder time dealing with non-black Cubans since they'd be more numerous, especially among non-combatants. They'll no doubt execute those caught openly fighting them. Furthermore, there'd be a rift between the CSA and their British/French allies over any colony they possess with a majority African population.
 

marktaha

Banned
By 2022, boxing is a popular sport across the United States.

I’m not sure if Jack Johnson exists in the world of TL-191. However, Joe Louis, Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali don’t exist in TTL.

-
The analogue to Elijah Muhammad in TTL was Robert Poole, born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He never left the CSA during his life, and worked in whatever job he could find to support his family. He was killed during the Destruction.

-
Malcolm X doesn’t exist in TTL.
Real Johnson born 1878 in Texas.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
Oh, sorry to give the impression Afro-Cubans were left alone. Of course the rebellion was happening there. Should've written that out better. But I was trying to imply that the Freedomites would've had a harder time dealing with non-black Cubans since they'd be more numerous, especially among non-combatants. They'll no doubt execute those caught openly fighting them. Furthermore, there'd be a rift between the CSA and their British/French allies over any colony they possess with a majority African populationion.
I could have sworn I read a passage once where Lord Halifax warned Featherston to not take "action" against blacks living in the Bahamas or some British colony but I have since havent found it in the books so must have been fanfic or speculation I read somwhere. But how likely is that to have happened ? Seems the British would have some problem with the CSA going into one of their colonies and killing a bunch of the residents ?
 
I could have sworn I read a passage once where Lord Halifax warned Featherston to not take "action" against blacks living in the Bahamas or some British colony but I have since havent found it in the books so must have been fanfic or speculation I read somwhere. But how likely is that to have happened ? Seems the British would have some problem with the CSA going into one of their colonies and killing a bunch of the residents ?
Bahamas were already a US State (with the Turks and Caicos also annexed perhaps), if not territory. So it couldn't be that; it be another Caribbean island(s).
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
Bahamas were already a US State (with the Turks and Caicos also annexed perhaps), if not territory. So it couldn't be that; it be another Caribbean island(s).
I dont think they were a State during the Second Great War maybe a territory but Im not sure the US had any Caribbean territories even Puerto Rico.At this time because of Cuba the CSA probably saw the Caribbean as a Confederate lake.Also wasnt there a big naval battle there that the US lost badly to the British and CSA ?
 
Bahamas were already a US State (with the Turks and Caicos also annexed perhaps), if not territory. So it couldn't be that; it be another Caribbean island(s).

I dont think they were a State during the Second Great War maybe a territory but Im not sure the US had any Caribbean territories even Puerto Rico.At this time because of Cuba the CSA probably saw the Caribbean as a Confederate lake.Also wasnt there a big naval battle there that the US lost badly to the British and CSA ?
The Bahamas weren't a state. They were a territory of the US, and I think the only one in hte Caribbean. They did also have Bermuda, which was lost to the UK early in the war.
 
What's the statuses of the following Axis collaborators of OTL?
Belgium
--Staf Declerq
--Léon Degrelle
--Hendrik Elias
--Ward Hermans
--Joris Van Severen
Burma
--Ba Maw
Croatia
--Mile Budak
--Jure Francetić
--Slavko Kvartenik
--Nikola Mandić
--Ante Pavelić
Czechoslovakia
--Emil Hácha
--Jozef Tiso
Denmark
--Frits Clausen
Hungary
--Ferenc Szálasi
India
--Subhas Chandra Bose (Does he lead a successful rebellion, secure independence, and perhaps be a prominent politician in the new Bharat?)
Iraq
--Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani
Israel-Palestine
--Amin Al-Husseini
Latvia
--Viktors Arājs
Lithuania
--Kazys Škirpa
Netherlands
--Anton Mussert
Norway
--Vidkun Quisling (Collaboration with the invading British?)
Mengjiang
--Demchugdongrub
Philippines
--José P. Laurel
Russia
--Sergei Bunyachenko
--Bronislav Kaminski
--Konstantin Rodzaevsky (Secretary General of the Russian Fascist Party and Japanese collaborator IOTL. With the Whites wining the Civil War, does he rise to prominence?)
--Andrey Vlasov
--Anastasy Vonsyatsky (IOTL he was arrested and went to prison in the US for engaging in contacts with the Nazis. Does he become prominent post-Civil War.)
Serbia
--Pavle Đurišić*
--Dobroslav Jevđević*
--Draža Mihailović*
--Milan Nedić
--Kosta Milovanović*
Slovenia
--Leon Rupnik
Thailand
--Plaek Phibunsongkhram ("Marshal P")
Ukraine
--Stepan Bandera*
--Mykhaylo Omelianovych-Pavlenko
--Roman Shukhevych*
--Yaroslav Stetsko
Vietnam
--Bảo Đại (Last Emperor of Vietnam)

*selective role
I recommend you split answering these on a country-by-country basis.
Edit: a couple more added.
The analogue in TTL to Dragoljub Mihailović, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. Mihailović, as served as an officer in the Serbian Army during the First Great War. He finished the war as a Second Lieutenant; he was forcibly retired after the end of the FGW, as the postwar Serbian government, with the full approval of the pro-Central Powers House of Obrenović, downsized the size of the Serbian military. Mihailović, like many Serbian FGW veterans, became an implacable opponent of the Obrenović dynasty. During the interwar years, Mihailović joined several clandestine groups opposed to the Serbian government; the last group that he was involved with plotted to assassinate the reigning Obrenović monarchs. In 1930, he was arrested along with several other co-conspirators, and was eventually executed in 1931 for his role in the plot.

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Pavle Đurišić doesn’t exist in TTL.

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The analogue in TTL to Dobroslav Jevđević, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. As in our world, the father of Jevđević was arrested and eventually executed by the Austro-Hungarian authorities for his ties with the Serbian nationalist group Narodna Odbrana. Jevđević, during the interwar years, became involved in the clandestine efforts of several small Serbian nationalist groups in Austro-Hungarian-ruled Bosnia. He became involved in smuggling weapons from Serbia into the Austro-Hungarian Empire in support of several anti-government groups. He was killed by a border patrol in 1923 during one of these gunrunning operations.

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The analogue in TTL to Milan Nedić, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He served in the Serbian Army in the First Great War, and was killed in combat against the Bulgarians in 1916.

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The analogue in TTL to Kosta Milovanović, of the same name was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He fought in several Balkan conflicts as a mercenary in the late 19th Century and early 20th Century, and enlisted in the Serbian Army at the outbreak of the First Great War in 1914. He died from dysentery in 1915.
 
What's the statuses of the following Axis collaborators of OTL?
Belgium
--Staf Declerq
--Léon Degrelle
--Hendrik Elias
--Ward Hermans
--Joris Van Severen
Burma
--Ba Maw
Croatia
--Mile Budak
--Jure Francetić
--Slavko Kvartenik
--Nikola Mandić
--Ante Pavelić
Czechoslovakia
--Emil Hácha
--Jozef Tiso
Denmark
--Frits Clausen
Hungary
--Ferenc Szálasi
India
--Subhas Chandra Bose (Does he lead a successful rebellion, secure independence, and perhaps be a prominent politician in the new Bharat?)
Iraq
--Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani
Israel-Palestine
--Amin Al-Husseini
Latvia
--Viktors Arājs
Lithuania
--Kazys Škirpa
Netherlands
--Anton Mussert
Norway
--Vidkun Quisling (Collaboration with the invading British?)
Mengjiang
--Demchugdongrub
Philippines
--José P. Laurel
Russia
--Sergei Bunyachenko
--Bronislav Kaminski
--Konstantin Rodzaevsky (Secretary General of the Russian Fascist Party and Japanese collaborator IOTL. With the Whites wining the Civil War, does he rise to prominence?)
--Andrey Vlasov
--Anastasy Vonsyatsky (IOTL he was arrested and went to prison in the US for engaging in contacts with the Nazis. Does he become prominent post-Civil War.)
Serbia
--Pavle Đurišić*
--Dobroslav Jevđević*
--Draža Mihailović*
--Milan Nedić
--Kosta Milovanović*
Slovenia
--Leon Rupnik
Thailand
--Plaek Phibunsongkhram ("Marshal P")
Ukraine
--Stepan Bandera*
--Mykhaylo Omelianovych-Pavlenko
--Roman Shukhevych*
--Yaroslav Stetsko
Vietnam
--Bảo Đại (Last Emperor of Vietnam)

*selective role
I recommend you split answering these on a country-by-country basis.
Edit: a couple more added.

Viktors Arājs doesn’t exist in TTL.

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The analogue in TTL to Kazys Škirpa, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He initially served in the Imperial Russian Army during the First Great War, but later deserted in 1916, before returning to German-controlled Lithuania. He enlisted in the new military of the Kingdom of Lithuania in 1922. He was killed in a fight with another soldier in 1924.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
So Im sure this has been answered before if 1922 was the cut off date for same births as OTL then no Elizabeth and Margaret right ? What became of George and Elizabeth?Who are/were Edward VIIs heirs.Also who were the Popes from the pod ittl Pius XII during the Second Great War ?
 
So Im sure this has been answered before if 1922 was the cut off date for same births as OTL then no Elizabeth and Margaret right ? What became of George and Elizabeth?Who are/were Edward VIIs heirs.Also who were the Popes from the pod ittl Pius XII during the Second Great War ?
King George VI succeeded King Edward VIII following the latter’s abdication after the end of the Second Great War. King George VI lived and reigned until 1957 in TTL. By 2022, the reigning British monarch is Queen Anne II.

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I’m afraid that I do not have a list of postwar Popes in TTL. By 2022, the Pope is John XXIII (a different person to our world’s Pope John XXIII). John XXIII in TTL is the former Archbishop of Turin.
 

MaxGerke01

Banned
King George VI succeeded King Edward VIII following the latter’s abdication after the end of the Second Great War. King George VI lived and reigned until 1957 in TTL. By 2022, the reigning British monarch is Queen Anne II.

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I’m afraid that I do not have a list of postwar Popes in TTL. By 2022, the Pope is John XXIII (a different person to our world’s Pope John XXIII). John XXIII in TTL is the former Archbishop of Turin.
Sorry to be dense but there was an Elizabeth II then as well ?
 
What's the statuses of the following Axis collaborators of OTL?
Belgium
--Staf Declerq
--Léon Degrelle
--Hendrik Elias
--Ward Hermans
--Joris Van Severen
Burma
--Ba Maw
Croatia
--Mile Budak
--Jure Francetić
--Slavko Kvartenik
--Nikola Mandić
--Ante Pavelić
Czechoslovakia
--Emil Hácha
--Jozef Tiso
Denmark
--Frits Clausen
Hungary
--Ferenc Szálasi
India
--Subhas Chandra Bose (Does he lead a successful rebellion, secure independence, and perhaps be a prominent politician in the new Bharat?)
Iraq
--Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani
Israel-Palestine
--Amin Al-Husseini
Latvia
--Viktors Arājs
Lithuania
--Kazys Škirpa
Netherlands
--Anton Mussert
Norway
--Vidkun Quisling (Collaboration with the invading British?)
Mengjiang
--Demchugdongrub
Philippines
--José P. Laurel
Russia
--Sergei Bunyachenko
--Bronislav Kaminski
--Konstantin Rodzaevsky (Secretary General of the Russian Fascist Party and Japanese collaborator IOTL. With the Whites wining the Civil War, does he rise to prominence?)
--Andrey Vlasov
--Anastasy Vonsyatsky (IOTL he was arrested and went to prison in the US for engaging in contacts with the Nazis. Does he become prominent post-Civil War.)
Serbia
--Pavle Đurišić*
--Dobroslav Jevđević*
--Draža Mihailović*
--Milan Nedić
--Kosta Milovanović*
Slovenia
--Leon Rupnik
Thailand
--Plaek Phibunsongkhram ("Marshal P")
Ukraine
--Stepan Bandera*
--Mykhaylo Omelianovych-Pavlenko
--Roman Shukhevych*
--Yaroslav Stetsko
Vietnam
--Bảo Đại (Last Emperor of Vietnam)

*selective role
I recommend you split answering these on a country-by-country basis.
Edit: a couple more added.

The analogue in TTL to Stepan Bandera, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He came of age in the Austro-Hungarian Empire during the First Great War and the interwar period. He eventually attended the Polytechnic School in Lemberg [OTL Lviv]. He never became involved in political activity, and eventually found work in Prague as a chemist. He was killed in a laboratory accident in Prague in 1936.

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The analogue in TTL to Mykhaylo Omelianovych-Pavlenko, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He served in the Imperial Russian Army during the First Great War, and was killed in combat on the Eastern Front in 1916.

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The analogue in TTL to Roman Shukhevych, of the same name, was born on a slightly different date in comparison to our world. He eventually attended the Polytechnic School in Lemberg and later found work in the late 1930s as an engineer. He died in 1940 in an industrial accident while working in a factory.

-
Yaroslav Stetsko doesn’t exist in TTL.
 
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