...Those Marvelous Tin Fish: The Great Torpedo Scandal Avoided

McPherson

Banned
That spec looks pretty good. As said, I'd sacrifice range for more warhead, & delete the dual-activation, but I won't quibble over it.;)

I thought about it, but the problem is that you need a certain size battery bank, you need the proper circuit bussing and load distribution, and you need a certain essential speed of electrolyte (sea water) flowing through the battery bank to both generate the current, and cool the battery bank. The warhead is long and skinny as it is. If I make it larger, I eat into the power unit cell bank and that drops the torpedo's speed and is liable to make it run "hot".

As for getting rid of the "metal detector", I suppose I could add 50 kg of explosive in its place, but the darn thing should work since it relies on a ferromagnetic object disturbing the detector in such a fashion that the potentiometer activates the electric solenoid that, well...

Questions:

Do the batteries leak gas?

Not until the seawater reacts with the anodes. You have to get the torpedo (swim out) out of the tube fairly quickly because the heat buildup in the tube will be a serious problem once the fish gets wet.

Do they require extensive (continuous?) maintenance?

The guidance package does. The gyros need to be spun up and down to make sure they do not bind and the artificial horizon governor should be calibrated to make sure the "floor" that the torpedo is set to run matches the "artificial horizon" governor gate limit. Also tail control solenoid linkages have to be tested. But we are not talking hydrogen burners and battery acid or plate pitting here, or bad things happening if you have to tilt or rotate the fish. The whole point of a slip in and out detonator module and guidance package setup is to make torpedo maintenance as safe as possible. You should be able to take off the propulsion unit and remove the nose assembly without a fire, acid spill, (no acid) or explosion at all.

Does performance vary with water temperature (or, given water activation, salinity or density)? Do they need special care (heaters or coolers) before firing? Or, worse, during non-use periods?

Wooden round but temperature, density and salinity does affect the battery bank. The torpedo will lose speed and range in cold dense less saline water. I suspect as much as 10% speed and almost 15% range off northern Japan or the Aleutians. It would be utterly marvelous around the equator.

One other drawback. It is fragile. You cannot drop this thing from a plane the way I have it currently rigged up. I'm not even sure you could roll it off a torpedo boat without damaging the battery banks which are shaped like Oreo (TM) wafer cells.

P.S. after edit. You can roll it off a torpedo boat. Speed NTE 40 knots; 74 km/h or 20 m/s. Now to figure out if a PBY or any bomber can drop it.
 
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I thought about it, but the problem is that you need a certain size battery bank, you need the proper circuit bussing and load distribution, and you need a certain essential speed of electrolyte (sea water) flowing through the battery bank to both generate the current, and cool the battery bank. The warhead is long and skinny as it is. If I make it larger, I eat into the power unit cell bank and that drops the torpedo's speed and is liable to make it run "hot".

As for getting rid of the "metal detector", I suppose I could add 50 kg of explosive in its place, but the darn thing should work since it relies on a ferromagnetic object disturbing the detector in such a fashion that the potentiometer activates the electric solenoid that, well...
I'll trade more punch: it works out to have the same result (or better...):)
Not until the seawater reacts with the anodes. You have to get the torpedo (swim out) out of the tube fairly quickly because the heat buildup in the tube will be a serious problem once the fish gets wet.
That's going to require changing training: usual practise was to flood the tubes fairly well in advance of shooting. Not enormously, to avoid soaking in, but it looks like it'll have to be the last item on the checklist: flood tubes & shoot.
The guidance package does. The gyros need to be spun up and down to make sure they do not bind and the artificial horizon governor should be calibrated to make sure the "floor" that the torpedo is set to run matches the "artificial horizon" governor gate limit. Also tail control solenoid linkages have to be tested. But we are not talking hydrogen burners and battery acid or plate pitting here, or bad things happening if you have to tilt or rotate the fish. The whole point of a slip in and out detonator module and guidance package setup is to make torpedo maintenance as safe as possible. You should be able to take off the propulsion unit and remove the nose assembly without a fire, acid spill, (no acid) or explosion at all.
I'd count those as part of "routining" the fish, so not onerous. I was thinking in terms of every minute, all the time.
Wooden round but temperature, density and salinity does affect the battery bank. The torpedo will lose speed and range in cold dense less saline water. I suspect as much as 10% speed and almost 15% range off northern Japan or the Aleutians. It would be utterly marvelous around the equator.
Shouldn't be a huge drawback. If it discourages patrols in the Aleutians, so much the better.;)

If ComSubPac (or Nimitz) insists on being blind to reality (as OTL:rolleyes:), issue only *Mark XIVs for Aleutians duty.

Which makes me think: are these going to be easier & cheaper to build, or not? It might affect availability (or use) of *Mark XIVs: if the *Mark XVIII is more common... I wonder if it leads to using the *Mark XVIII only for merchantmen, & *Mark XIV for DDs & other warships. I also wonder if that prospect means the *Mark XIV becomes a *Mark XXIII, instead: single-speed only, since the "slow" setting is filled by the *Mark XVIII.
One other drawback. It is fragile. You cannot drop this thing from a plane the way I have it currently rigged up. I'm not even sure you could roll it off a torpedo boat without damaging the battery banks which are shaped like Oreo (TM) wafer cells.
That could be problematic for onboard handling, & maybe in DC attacks. What would you call the resulting hazard? Electrolite spillage? Hot runs? Or just failure to function thanks to cracked plates & such?

With that thought, if there's damage, how much could be repaired/replaced afloat, assuming spares available? (IDK if spare gyros would be in the inventory, but... Spare battery plates likely would be.) How much might be repaired with the welding & maintenance gear aboard?

Also, the slower speed means issues with the TDC cams. That shouldn't be insurmountable. Speed variability is going to mean more misses (since the TDC can't account for it--unless you allow for variation in torpedo speed input beyond two settings, which introduces more complexity, & IDK if the tech can cope with that...). So an ideal two-fish spread might have to be three anyhow...& maybe four *Mark XVIIIs will have to be? (Maybe not...)
 
I am currently working on the first draft of the opening stages of the war. I have Navy duty this weekend so the progress will be slow, but I will get to it when I can. It is not my intention to write a blow by blow account, rather I am going to try to summarize what I think will happen in narrative form. I will probably not take it beyond mid 1943. There is a large flock of butterflies flapping about and herding butterflies is a lot like herding cats! I am toying with the idea of making it a collaborative timeline with inputs from you all.

I really appreciate your interest in the TL. It has been an interesting intellectual exercise in correcting a grave historical injustice. I learned a lot from it and I hope you did too.
 

McPherson

Banned
I'll trade more punch: it works out to have the same result (or better...)

I gave what punch I could. Give up the influence feature, keep the gill speed.

That's going to require changing training: usual practise was to flood the tubes fairly well in advance of shooting. Not enormously, to avoid soaking in, but it looks like it'll have to be the last item on the checklist: flood tubes & shoot.

Safety dry checks, then wet her down. She has to be out quick (5-10 minutes; or the heat buildup does nasty things to the warhead. (Like MELT it. Not good at all.) )

I'd count those as part of "routining" the fish, so not onerous. I was thinking in terms of every minute, all the time.

Depends on how cranky the electrical system is. This thing makes a 1940 tabulator look simple.

Shouldn't be a huge drawback. If it discourages patrols in the Aleutians, so much the better.;)

If ComSubPac (or Nimitz) insists on being blind to reality (as OTL:rolleyes:), issue only *Mark XIVs for Aleutians duty.

It could work. I don't see the cold weather degradation as a no-use problem. Unless the TDC cannot be "programmed" for the expected drops?

Which makes me think: are these going to be easier & cheaper to build, or not? It might affect availability (or use) of *Mark XIVs: if the *Mark XVIII is more common... I wonder if it leads to using the *Mark XVIII only for merchantmen, & *Mark XIV for DDs & other warships. I also wonder if that prospect means the *Mark XIV becomes a *Mark XXIII, instead: single-speed only, since the "slow" setting is filled by the *Mark XVIII.

Shrug. I wanted something better than the G7e, Fido/Cutie, or the Mark XVIII.

Making the torpedo is a "maybe". The subsystems except for the guidance package should be simple and subcontractor produced for final torpedo assembly, either at an assembly plant or navy depot. I don't think a 3 axis aircraft style gyro controlled autopilot has ever been applied to a "guided missile" this early in history. The power unit is straight forward. The gill system for the power unit is quite tricky and an unknown so it could be trouble. Depends on tank testing to get the flow right. But once that is solved, the power unit is no worse than an auto body. All in all, still, it should be no worse than a Mark XIV in man-hours; for the way it is laid out, it should lend itself easily to automotive type assembly line methods and semi-skilled labor. That is true except for the guidance package. That will require skilled machinists of almost clockmaker level. Of course I do not see a way to avoid that bottleneck unless you want to stick with the old gyro compass and pendulum setup and I was not having that, not when LINK and SPERRY are both available.

I, also, don't like mixed loads. Now you have two different procedures and checkout lists to clear, as you prep, flood and shoot.

Fragility.

That could be problematic for onboard handling, & maybe in DC attacks. What would you call the resulting hazard? Electrolite spillage? Hot runs? Or just failure to function thanks to cracked plates & such?

FTR, cracked plates and gill warpage being my heartburn. Just for my curiosity's sake, just what was the Mark XVIII, if not a horror show waiting for a good depth charging to act up? I think it would be a far worse hazard than a securely racked and dry "hypothetrical" Mark 20.

With that thought, if there's damage, how much could be repaired/replaced afloat, assuming spares available? (IDK if spare gyros would be in the inventory, but... Spare battery plates likely would be.) How much might be repaired with the welding & maintenance gear aboard?

Plug and pray. The power unit, slide the shell off and visually inspect. Components are repetitive in series (wired parallel). You might be able to jump out damaged units and still use the power unit, or swap out "Oreos".

For the Guidance Package, take the propulsion unit (tail) off the back end, slip out the dud and insert the spare. Run checks and away you go. Same with the fusing module. Make sure the safety lock (impeller actuated after the stud snaps off as the fish leaves the tube.) is not advanced or the clock cam actuated. So it would take Seaman TPM 3rd class Felix Fumbles to screw that swap out up.

The real limiter is how much rack space you have to work on the fish and what spares are kept in storage.

Also, the slower speed means issues with the TDC cams. That shouldn't be insurmountable. Speed variability is going to mean more misses (since the TDC can't account for it--unless you allow for variation in torpedo speed input beyond two settings, which introduces more complexity, & IDK if the tech can cope with that...). So an ideal two-fish spread might have to be three anyhow...& maybe four *Mark XVIIIs will have to be? (Maybe not...)

I don't know. I would think a new set of change out cams or a different 2 speed TDC entirely or just a "banjo" and stopwatch might have to suffice.
 
I gave what punch I could. Give up the influence feature, keep the gill speed.
Came out fine, IMO.
Safety dry checks, then wet her down. She has to be out quick (5-10 minutes; or the heat buildup does nasty things to the warhead. (Like MELT it. Not good at all.) )
I can't say if that much was out of bounds for usual in all cases (tho I get a sense it was, some of the time); I'd advise making the change for safety's sake.
Depends on how cranky the electrical system is. This thing makes a 1940 tabulator look simple.
Keeping the OTL Mark 14s in order was no picnic, but some of that was make work, & some was "just to be sure", like for the M16.
It could work. I don't see the cold weather degradation as a no-use problem. Unless the TDC cannot be "programmed" for the expected drops?
My concern (& this applies across the board) is variability introducing misses. I can see cam changes to account for two speeds; I'm not sure you can have a "range" of cams to account for the range of possible speeds, but it might be possible: "northern", "temperate", & "tropical"?
I don't know. I would think a new set of change out cams or a different 2 speed TDC entirely or just a "banjo" and stopwatch might have to suffice.
Reverting to the banjo might have to do, if the TDC can't cope. My question about TDC cams is, how do you know how much variation to allow in grinding them? 10%? 15? Do you get 2, 3, 4, just for the *Mark 18? Or do you just say, "Use the Banjo & don't screw around."?

I have a feeling that would need actual combat experience to resolve.
I, also, don't like mixed loads. Now you have two different procedures and checkout lists to clear, as you prep, flood and shoot.
Mixed loadout IMO is less an issue: select in advance, fit the proper cam, & shoot; change the cam on reload, as needed. (I presume {but don't know as a fact} it's possible to do in the time needed to reload; modifying the TDC for it might be required--but if you need to change cams, I'd expect that to be accounted for.)

Checkout IMO isn't a problem: that's before the fish goes in the tube. And once it's loaded, keeping to "dry to the last second" could as well apply to steam fish, no harm. Indeed, save "open the outer door" to last (or second last, flood & open), just before shooting, & you're good to go. If there's a need to keep either one wet for a length of time before firing (I'm unaware of one, but...), put a stopwatch on it & count off ten (or whatever).
I wanted something better than the G7e, Fido/Cutie, or the Mark XVIII.
I'd say it is.:)
Making the torpedo is a "maybe". The subsystems except for the guidance package should be simple and subcontractor produced for final torpedo assembly, either at an assembly plant or navy depot. I don't think a 3 axis aircraft style gyro controlled autopilot has ever been applied to a "guided missile" this early in history. The power unit is straight forward. The gill system for the power unit is quite tricky and an unknown so it could be trouble. Depends on tank testing to get the flow right. But once that is solved, the power unit is no worse than an auto body. All in all, still, it should be no worse than a Mark XIV in man-hours; for the way it is laid out, it should lend itself easily to automotive type assembly line methods and semi-skilled labor. That is true except for the guidance package. That will require skilled machinists of almost clockmaker level. Of course I do not see a way to avoid that bottleneck unless you want to stick with the old gyro compass and pendulum setup and I was not having that, not when LINK and SPERRY are both available.
I don't think the complexity is a non-starter. The Mark 14 wasn't exactly simple, either.
FTR, cracked plates and gill warpage being my heartburn. Just for my curiosity's sake, just what was the Mark XVIII, if not a horror show waiting for a good depth charging to act up? I think it would be a far worse hazard than a securely racked and dry "hypothetrical" Mark 20.
I'd agree, only wondering what you think: better, same, or worse. For that, AFAIK, the Mark 18 never bit anybody while on board...
Plug and pray. The power unit, slide the shell off and visually inspect. Components are repetitive in series (wired parallel). You might be able to jump out damaged units and still use the power unit, or swap out "Oreos".
The ones I'd be concerned about are the "oreo" plates, & if they prove fragile at all in trial & testing, spares would be aboard. The main battery did sometimes suffer cracking, & welding the plates was occasionally done; maybe that's possible here, maybe not, depending on design--& spares might be more sensible than improvising.
The real limiter is how much rack space you have to work on the fish and what spares are kept in storage.
Yeah, space could be a problem...but if you can open the body (rather than "pull it off") for battery access, changing the rest should be possible without issues. I also think that would be addressed in testing. (Of course, there's always room for some "bright light" to screw it up...:rolleyes:)
 

McPherson

Banned
Came out fine, IMO.

This hypothetical torpedo was based initially off the RTL Mark 36.

I can't say if that much was out of bounds for usual in all cases (tho I get a sense it was, some of the time); I'd advise making the change for safety's sake.

It (leaving the Mark XVIII electric torpedo) in the tube for any length of time, ran the risk of an electric short, a "hot" run and melting the Torpex. Like candle wax it leaked out, only semi-toxic. It fouled the tube rendering it useless until the fish was dumped and a man dived the tube to clean the mess out by hand. I think the "Mark 20" runs the same risk.

Keeping the OTL Mark 14s in order was no picnic, but some of that was make work, & some was "just to be sure", like for the M16.

How much of it, was the notoriety the Mark XIV earned for being generally unreliable? The Mark 20 is obviously (my PoV) designed to be maintenance friendly.

About performance drop outs and temperature sensitivity.

My concern (& this applies across the board) is variability introducing misses. I can see cam changes to account for two speeds; I'm not sure you can have a "range" of cams to account for the range of possible speeds, but it might be possible: "northern", "temperate", & "tropical"?

My solution is combat experience, intensive pre-war training, a "run" table, the banjo, and stop-watch. Later on as captured German tech becomes available, the guidance package can be adapted to make sinusoidal runs along the base track (S turns to meander through the convoy/enemy fleet formation) or best yet, a HUSL/Harvard/Columbia acoustic seeker setup/ shadow noise logic to make the Mark 20 a prop homer. Dead destroyer at 4,000 meters. yum.

Reverting to the banjo might have to do, if the TDC can't cope. My question about TDC cams is, how do you know how much variation to allow in grinding them? 10%? 15? Do you get 2, 3, 4, just for the *Mark 18? Or do you just say, "Use the Banjo & don't screw around."?

I have a feeling that would need actual combat experience to resolve.

Based on what I can find out about the TDC, it is fine for the Mark XIV, 2 speed. The refined and improved TDC gave an error when the Mark XVIII suffered dropout from the cold, so the Mark 20 will need the range run tables and a banjo calibrated to it and experienced track parties who understand the effects on electric torpedoes. It cannot be partially solved by preheating the dry battery, so the variability problem with the Mark 20 could be worse, not better than with the Mark XVIII.

Mixed loadout IMO is less an issue: select in advance, fit the proper cam, & shoot; change the cam on reload, as needed. (I presume {but don't know as a fact} it's possible to do in the time needed to reload; modifying the TDC for it might be required--but if you need to change cams, I'd expect that to be accounted for.)

Make a cam kit and an analog universal log function logic?

Checkout IMO isn't a problem: that's before the fish goes in the tube. And once it's loaded, keeping to "dry to the last second" could as well apply to steam fish, no harm. Indeed, save "open the outer door" to last (or second last, flood & open), just before shooting, & you're good to go. If there's a need to keep either one wet for a length of time before firing (I'm unaware of one, but...), put a stopwatch on it & count off ten (or whatever).

I really don't know WW II torpedo checkout procedures in sufficient detail to comment. With missiles however, it is not a simple thing to alter a check list sequence. Things have to come checked off the list in a rather rigid order for a sequence to be rated man-safe. One check step out of proper order and 'bad" things happen, even if the missile functions as intended. There was this "incident" of a mis-launch. The bird flew perfectly as profiled in the mission plan despite the bungled guidance check. It wound up in Mexico instead of in the intended impact site. A 180 azimuth error.

Yeah, space could be a problem...but if you can open the body (rather than "pull it off") for battery access, changing the rest should be possible without issues. I also think that would be addressed in testing. (Of course, there's always room for some "bright light" to screw it up...:rolleyes:)

I don't like man-hole reach-ins or split casings. Besides, there is the gill setup. Simpler to cast the tube than stamp and mill two hemi-tubes and run the risk of leaks or cylinder warpage. Slide out tray allows for easy access. Maybe it requires two empty racks to take off the warhead and the motor guidance package to service the fish? If that is the case, short-load the boat or risk a dud in the first four warshots to clear up the work space. Just a suggestion. In any case, I did think about this problem when I opted to make the power unit the way it is shown.
 
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McPherson

Banned
While having Mark XIVs that work and having Blandy in a Navy veterans rest home helps, what is one supposed to do about;

-RADM Robert H. English?
-NAVY SEC Claude A. Swanson
-RADM Wilhelm L. Friedell
-RADM Thomas Withers
-RADM John H. Brown, Jr.
-Capt. Allan R. McCann
-Capt. James Fife

and other geniuses of whom I am not aware at the moment?

Duds at the top.
 
The purpose of my timeline was to correct the torpedo scandal mess. In order to keep it as realistic as possible and to keep the butterflies under control I deliberately decided to not mess with the people, training, or tactics. I got rid of Blandy and rendered Christie impotent only because those two were central figures in the scandal.

In the OTL reality, the USN went into WWII believing the bilge that Newport was putting out, i.e. the torpedoes were perfect and deadly. Therefore, it wasn't until the first warshots went down range that anyone suspected that anything was wrong. So the USN believed their weapons were good but found they weren't, and ITTL they believed the weapons were good and found out they were. So all of the other conditions related to training, doctrine, and tactics would still be in place and the USN will still have to figure a way out of that mess. Having good weapons will go a long way towards that goal, but there will still be a steep uphill slog of a learning curve to master before it is all straightened out.

I will admit that to some extent all of the men that McPherson mentioned above probably deserve some sort of a slap upside the head. We could write a timeline that does that and in the end creates a perfect submarine, destroyer, PT, and VT squadron environment. But when you stop to think about that it may very well create a timeline in which the Japanese see that and are actually deterred from initiating a war against the west. They did what they did in part because they believed they would get away with it, because of their belief that the west (i.e. the U.S. and the UK) were fat, dumb, lazy, and decadent and that there was no way they could prevail against the might of the disciplined Sons of Nippon. Given a different picture to consider, they were smart enough to maybe hesitate just long enough to lose the very narrow window of opportunity they had to initiate war on their terms.
 

McPherson

Banned
The purpose of my timeline was to correct the torpedo scandal mess. In order to keep it as realistic as possible and to keep the butterflies under control I deliberately decided to not mess with the people, training, or tactics. I got rid of Blandy and rendered Christie impotent only because those two were central figures in the scandal.

I'm perfectly fine with this PoV. Yet this Portsmouth brig battalion never saw a day of jail-time for their FTPs. Ex post facto, that seems unfair to the submariners who died as a result of faulty weapons and tactics.

In the OTL reality, the USN went into WWII believing the bilge that Newport was putting out, i.e. the torpedoes were perfect and deadly. Therefore, it wasn't until the first warshots went down range that anyone suspected that anything was wrong. So the USN believed their weapons were good but found they weren't, and ITTL they believed the weapons were good and found out they were. So all of the other conditions related to training, doctrine, and tactics would still be in place and the USN will still have to figure a way out of that mess. Having good weapons will go a long way towards that goal, but there will still be a steep uphill slog of a learning curve to master before it is all straightened out.

Maybe I should have expanded that dud list somewhat to the naval surface and air warfare branches, too . Except that I have pointed out elsewhere that I believed Christie has been unfairly savaged and should be somewhat rehabilitated under the excuse that he did what he did because he was one of those " believing the bilge that Newport was putting out, i.e. the torpedoes were perfect and deadly" despite the RTL fact he was actually one of the originators of aforesaid "bilge". Not his fault that he lost contact with the problem as he moved further and further away from it. It actually is a lot like the US Polaris Missile program managers in retrospect, where the program managers as they returned to the fleet seemed blissfully unaware that their marvelous missile with its deadly accurate guidance system would deliver a nuclear warhead that would not work because the boneheads at Sandia and at Savannah River site, goofed up the fusing mechanism. Certainly William Halsey, falls under the Christie umbrella and so does Walden Ainsworth, men who are unfairly pilloried because of what they believed before; instead of what they failed to do about it once they bungled.

I will admit that to some extent all of the men that McPherson mentioned above probably deserve some sort of a slap upside the head. We could write a timeline that does that and in the end creates a perfect submarine, destroyer, PT, and VT squadron environment. But when you stop to think about that it may very well create a timeline in which the Japanese see that and are actually deterred from initiating a war against the west. They did what they did in part because they believed they would get away with it, because of their belief that the west (i.e. the U.S. and the UK) were fat, dumb, lazy, and decadent and that there was no way they could prevail against the might of the disciplined Sons of Nippon. Given a different picture to consider, they were smart enough to maybe hesitate just long enough to lose the very narrow window of opportunity they had to initiate war on their terms.

I don't believe we could have had a perfect first year in spite of average or above average working torpedoes. We still have obsolete or inferior aircraft, faulty operational procedures, though our theory of the surface and naval air operational art is quite good. Submarine warfare doctrine has to be invented, and there are serious problems with the submarines themselves that no-one has addressed. It will be a tough first year, a nail biter second year, a slogging third year and glorious near disastrous fourth year, but it will still be the naval war we've become familiar with. The only difference is this time the Japanese will share the grief.
 

McPherson

Banned
At the risk of opening a ginormous can of worms,;) I am interested in hearing what you consider to be serious problems with the submarines.

That will be by private message. The straying off topic I've caused here is bad enough. :p If you want to incorporate some of it into the open thread, I think that should be your call after you read some of my opinions.
 
I don't believe we could have had a perfect first year in spite of average or above average working torpedoes. We still have obsolete or inferior aircraft, faulty operational procedures, though our theory of the surface and naval air operational art is quite good. Submarine warfare doctrine has to be invented, and there are serious problems with the submarines themselves that no-one has addressed. It will be a tough first year, a nail biter second year, a slogging third year and glorious near disastrous fourth year, but it will still be the naval war we've become familiar with. The only difference is this time the Japanese will share the grief.
I'd agree with that. Even assuming the Mark XIV (& sisters) work 100% of the time, doctrine, training, basing, deployment, & intelligence issues mitigate against the Sub Force being dramatically more effective. Better torpedoes can't overcome that.

Senior command of the Force was deficient at all stations, not aided by Nimitz's mistaken insistence on close surveillance of IJN bases, which English (in particular) seemed not to have argued hard enough against, nor by the guerrilla supply missions. Better torpedoes can't overcome that, either.

On top of that, Japan got a steamroller effect in part because the Allies (all) were unprepared, surprised, or both. Better torpedoes don't fix that, either.

Bottom line? You won't start to see the impact until 1943, not really. You'll maybe get a handful of IJN warships sunk that weren't OTL, & you'll get a tonnage score that's higher, but it'll be the kind of thing you'd have to be a member of this board to even notice--& even then, it might get past you.

I say "it'll shorten the war" by a perceptible amount, because I know of no other way to relate TTL's sinkings to OTL's but by number of months: if OTL 1943 saw sinkings of 1.5 million tons & TTL sees 1.875 million (or even 2 million or 2.25 million, as a result of increased aggressiveness), that's equal to 3mo sinkings (or 4, or 6). Will that shorten the war in linear fashion? No. Will it shorten the war? IMO, it must, if it brings Japan's economy to a crisis sooner--& it will.

For how to handle it, can I suggest treating it like a historical paper? That is, as if you're Blair writing a monograph on the war, mentioning some of the top skippers, the skipper problems, the basing issues, sinking rates, numbers of torpedoes fired & number per sinking, so forth. You could, in passing, mention the major battles & major warships sunk (famous ones, & a total number--beware going too high; even 100% functioning torpedoes can't overcome being out of position...), so forth. And mention losses of boats (which allows you to, frex, say Tullibee scored a famous success after her OTL sinking, if you want, or O'Kane doesn't get the Medal...:eek:). All this, without a day-to-day account of the war. Is it a fair amount of work? Maybe; IMO, most of it can be adapted from Blair's year-end summaries & his loss & success tables. I'll leave it to you to decide.
 

McPherson

Banned
This is von Holtzendorff's Memo, 22 December 1916.

The pertinent elements:

in order to exploit the favourable situation and to obtain a swift victory.

I.

The war requires a decision before autumn 1917, lest it should end in the mutual exhaustion of all parties and thus in a disaster for us. Of our enemies, Italy and France are already so severely weakened in their economic foundations that they are kept in the fight only through England's energy and resources. If we succeed to break England's backbone, the war will immediately be decided in our favour. England's backbone is the merchant tonnage, which delivers essential imports for their survival and for the military industry of the British islands and which ensures the [kingdom's] ability to pay for its imports from abroad.

II.

The current situation in respect to the merchant tonnage has already been mentioned in the memorandum of 27 August and is laid out in further detail in the attachment. In all brevity the situation is as follows: The [shipping] rates have reached outrageous levels, often as much as ten times as much [as in peacetime] for many important goods. We know with certainty from a variety of sources that merchant tonnage is lacking everywhere.

The current English merchant tonnage can safely be assumed to be in the order of 20 million gross register tons. 8.6 million tons of these are requisitioned for military purposes, and 1/2 million is employed in coastal trade. Approximately 1 million [tons] are undergoing repairs or are otherwise temporarily unavailable. Approximately 2 million tons are sailing for other allies, which leaves about 8 million tons of English merchant tonnage to provide for the supply of England. An analysis of statistical figures of ship movements in British ports suggests an even lower figure. In the months of July - September 1916 only 6 3/4 million tons were employed in the trade with England. In addition to that, other tonnage sailing in the trade with England can be assumed to amount to around 900,000 tons of enemy - non-English - and approximately 3 million tons of neutral tonnage. Hence, no more than 10 3/4 million GRT are at the disposal for the supply of England.

III.

If the achievements in our battle against merchant tonnage have been encouraging thus far, then the exceptionally poor world harvest of grain, including feed grain, this year provides us with a unique opportunity, which nobody could responsibly reject. Both North America and Canada will probably cease their grain exports to England in February. Then that country will have to draw its grain supplies from the more distant Argentina, but since Argentina will only be able to deliver very limited quantities, because of the poor harvest, England will have to turn to India and mostly Australia. In the attachment it is explained in detail how such an increase in the length of the grain routes will require an extra 720,000 tons of tonnage for the grain shipments alone. In practice, the implications will be that, until August 1917, 3/4 million tons of the available 10 3/4 million tons will have to be employed for a service, which had hitherto not been required.

IV.

Under such favourable circumstances an energetic blow conducted with all force against English merchant tonnage will promise a certain success in a way that I have to reiterate and emphasize my statements made on 27 August 1916 that "our clearly defined strategic objective is to force a decision in our favour through the destruction of [enemy] sea transport capacity" and also that "from a military point of view it would be irresponsible not to make use of the submarine weapon now." As things stand at the moment, I cannot vouch that a campaign of unrestricted submarine warfare will force England to make peace within five months time. This reservation needs to be made in respect to the unrestricted submarine warfare only. Of the currently conducted submarine warfare under cruiser a decisive result cannot be expected, regardless of the circumstances, even if all armed merchantmen are designated as legitimate targets.

V.

Based on a monthly rate of destruction of 600,000 tons of shipping through a campaign of unrestricted submarine warfare, as pointed out previously, and on the well grounded expectation, elaborated upon in the attachment, that at least two fifths of the neutral tonnage sailing in the trade with England will be deterred by such a campaign, it stands to reason that the current volume English sea borne trade will be reduced by 39% within five months. This would not be bearable for England, neither in view of her future position after the war, nor in view of her ability to continue the war effort. Already, the country is at the verge of a food crisis, which will soon compel it to attempt to undertake the same food rationing measures, which we, as a blockaded country, have been forced to adopt since the outbreak of the war. The preconditions for implementing such measures are totally different and infinitely more unfavourable than in our case. They do not have the necessary administration and their population is unused to submitting to such privations. Then there is another reason why the uniform rationing of bread for the whole population will not be possible in England at this point. It was possible for Germany at a time in which bread could be substituted by other foodstuffs. That moment has been missed in England. But with only three fifths of the current sea borne trade, the continued supply with [alternative] foodstuffs cannot be maintained unless a severe rationing of grain is imposed--provided the war industry is to be maintained at its current output level. The objection that England could have sufficient domestic stockpiles of grain and raw materials has been disproved in detail in the attachment.

In addition to that, the unrestricted submarine campaign would cut off England from the trade with Denmark and Holland, which would result in an immediate shortage of fats, since one third of all butter imports and the entire margarine imports to England originate in Denmark and Holland respectively. Moreover, by threatening the sea routes to Scandinavia and intensifying activities against the Spanish iron-ore trade, it would result in a scarcity of iron-ore and wood. This will automatically reduce the coal production for lack of wood. In consequence it would also reduce the output of pig iron, steel, and subsequently the production of munitions, which depends on both. Finally, it gives us the long hoped for opportunity to strike at neutral munitions shipments, and thus it will also provide a relief for the army.

By contrast, a submarine campaign according to cruiser rules, even assuming the possibility of indiscriminate attacks on armed merchantmen, would only yield a reduction of the tonnage sailing for England by 5 x 400,000 tons--about 18%--or less than half of what could be achieved by unrestricted submarine warfare. Experience so far does not suggest that the authorization to torpedo armed merchantmen would improve upon the result of 400,000 tons of destroyed merchant tonnage, which has been achieved over the past two months. In fact, it is likely to merely compensate for a decline, which has to be expected in the course of progressing arming [of merchantmen]. I am aware that even a reduction of one fifth of English sea borne trade will have a severe impact on the English supply situation. However, I consider it unthinkable that the current English leadership under Lloyd George, who is absolutely determined, could be forced to make peace on these grounds, particularly since the constraints of fat, iron-ore, and wood scarcity--and the latters' impact on the munitions production-- would not come into effect. Furthermore, the psychological effects of panic and terror cannot be exploited. These effects, which can only be achieved by a campaign of unrestricted submarine warfare are, in my view, an indispensable prerequisite for success. Just how important they are can be judged by the experiences made when we initiated submarine warfare in early 1915, or even during the brief period of the submarine campaign in March and April 1916, when the British believed that we were serious about it.

A further precondition [for success] is that the beginning and the declaration of unrestricted submarine warfare should coincide in a manner that leaves no room for negotiations, particularly between England and the neutrals. Only then will the effect of shock have the most profound impact on the enemy and the neutrals.

VI.

Upon the declaration of unrestricted submarine warfare the United States government will once more be compelled to make a decision whether or not to take the consequences of its previous position vis-à-vis the unrestricted submarine warfare. I am absolutely of the opinion that war with the United States is such a serious matter that everything has to be undertaken to avoid it. Fear of a diplomatic rupture however, should not lead us to recoil from the use of a weapon that promises victory for us.

At any rate, it is realistic to assume the worst case as the most probable one and to consider, which impact an American entry into the war on the side of our enemies would have on the course of the war. In respect to the merchant tonnage this impact is likely to be negligible. It cannot be expected that more than a fraction of the interned central power tonnage in American--and perhaps in other neutral ports--can be put into the trade with England at short notice. The overwhelming part of it can be rendered useless in a manner that it will be unable to sail during the first, critical months. All preparations in this respect have been made. Also, there would be no crews available in the initial stages. The American troops would be of equally little import, if only for the lack of bottoms to carry them over here in great numbers; the same applies to American money, which cannot compensate the lack of tonnage. The only question that remains would be how America would react to a peace, which Great Britain would be forced to accept. It is unlikely that it would decide to continue the war against us, since it has no means to strike at us decisively, whereas its sea borne commerce would suffer from our submarines. Indeed, it is to be expected that it will join England in making peace, in order to restore healthy economic conditions.

Therefore my conclusion is that a campaign of unrestricted submarine warfare, launched in time to produce a peace before the harvest of the summer 1917--i.e. 1 August--has to accept the risk of American belligerence, because we have no other option. In spite of the diplomatic rupture with America, the unrestricted submarine warfare is nevertheless the right means to conclude this war victoriously. It is also the only means to this end.

VII.

Since I have declared the time come to strike against England in autumn 1916 the situation has even improved tremendously in our favour. The crop failure, in conjunction with the impact of the war on England up to now, gives us the opportunity to force a decision before the next harvest. If we do not make use of what seems to be the last chance, then I see no other option than that of mutual exhaustion, without our succeeding to bring the war to an end on terms that will guarantee our future as a world power.

What has this to do with the WW II Pacific War and the USN submarine campaign engendered?

Well, this was the state of the submarine warfare art at the strategic level, as understood, for both the Germans and anyone else who wanted to practice it in 1939-1941. It is what was expected that submarines could do if properly employed. Doenitz did not stray far from it as he practiced U-boat warfare in his campaign. It is the "tonnage strategy".

The problem with a tonnage strategy is quickly seen in the Holtzendorff memorandum, is it not?

He cites the resource targets he wants to hit; Scandinavian and Spanish iron ore shipments, grain shipments, animal fats, finished munitions, and wood imports. He urges a tonnage campaign to deny these specific resources. Just my PoV, but is it not obvious where he makes his rather stupendous logical mistake? In the same analysis, where he notes critical resources, that if denied, would dislocate Britain's war effort, he also cites the overseas sources of from where the named "bottlenecks" come. He actually argues a "flow strategy", while calling for a tonnage campaign. If he believes his naval staff's analysis, then he should be using his scarce U-boats to go after Argentine, Spanish, Australian, Indian, and Scandinavian trade, while ignoring US trade altogether. Whether he fights off the Western Approaches or stations U-boats off the resource source ports, he mistakes his strategic argument to the operational methods he employs.

Again, what has this example to do with the American submarine campaign?

If the Japanese went after Indonesia and Malaya for oil, tin, manganese and rubber, then the specific ships: ore carriers, and tankers; are the main prey, and the trade route choke points become the operation areas for the submarine campaign from day 1 of the Pacific War. Anything that takes submarines away from the waters of the South and East China Seas should be resisted with all the fervor that the PacFlt staff can muster.

US_Submarine_operating_areas_1.png


It should be obvious that I favor a flow strategy in the op-art and a chokepoint / trade-lanes submarine employment thereof.
 
If the Japanese went after Indonesia and Malaya for oil, tin, manganese and rubber, then the specific ships: ore carriers, and tankers; are the main prey, and the trade route choke points become the operation areas for the submarine campaign from day 1 of the Pacific War. Anything that takes submarines away from the waters of the South and East China Seas should be resisted with all the fervor that the PacFlt staff can muster.

US_Submarine_operating_areas_1.png
I would disagree with that only slightly: the ideal place is between the South & East China Seas, the obvious bottleneck, off Formosa; the trouble was, the dividing line between SWPA & POA ran through it, putting it (effectively) off-limits, for fear of fratricide... The second best (arguably) is off Shandung; the Yellow Sea is so damn shallow, tho...:eek: Bungo & Kii Suido are next, along with Tsushima.

I'm not one to defend Nimitz's deployment decisions, but he does have IJN bases all over the place, & there is reason to want to keep them under some kind of surveillance; I'd argue for using the movement cypher, & making a best effort to keep the approaches mined by subs. (Say, en route to patrol areas?)
 
Post 11 - Initial Action in the Philippines - 1941-1942
INITIAL ACTION IN THE PHILIPPINES – 1941-1942

The debacle that was the defense of the Philippines has been well documented in numerous history texts. The effects of the Asiatic Fleet and the Philippine ground and air forces being a dumping ground for the infirm, washed up, incompetent, or retiring officers and enlisted men were dramatically shown during the military campaigns subsequent to the opening of hostilities. The strategy was flawed, the leadership was edging towards incompetence, and cooperation between the Navy, Army, and P.I. forces was almost non-existent. The end result was an unfortunate foregone conclusion, but there were a few shining moments. The efforts of the Franklin Roosevelt, the Torpedo Development Council, the Fleet Liaison Office, and the technicians and industrialists at Newport, Alexandria, Bliss, Westinghouse, and others resulted in the Asiatic Fleet having plethora of finely tuned and deadly torpedoes to fight the enemy with. Despite the loss of 233 Mk 14s in the bombing of Cavite on the first day, pre-war production rates insured that there were plenty of weapons to go around. On the occasions in which these marvelous tin fish were married up with units that could and would take the fight to the enemy the results were dramatic:

14 DECEMBER 1941 – Location: Northeastern coast of Luzon, near Aparri. Seawolf (Warder) attacks a large ship, the seaplane tender Sanyo Maru anchored in the cove, with two Mk 14 torpedoes. Both hit and the ship sinks 15 minutes later. On the way out of the harbor he sets up on and sinks a large fleet destroyer with two Mk 14’s. He had earlier sidestepped the destroyer in order to get into the cove.

OTL result: Several misses left the Sanyo Maru undamaged. The destroyer was not attacked.

14/15/16 DECEMBER 1941 – Location: South China Sea. In a three day series of attacks Swordfish (Smith) sinks five freighters, including Kashii Maru and Atsutusan Maru. Chet Smith and his crew are subsequently awarded the Silver Star.

OTL result: Only Atsutusan Maru was sunk. All others escaped.

22 DECEMBER 1941 – Location: Approaches to Lingayen Gulf. Salmon (McKinney) engages in a night time surface dance with two destroyers. After much maneuvering about while both sides sized each other up, the destroyers charged the Salmon and McKinney sank both with one torpedo each from the stern tubes.

OTL result: One reported but unconfirmed hit. No sinkings.

23 DECEMBER 1941 – Location: Lingayen Gulf. S-38 (Chapple), alerted to the presence of the main Japanese invasion force by a radio message from Stingray (Lamb), forces his way into the Gulf and at daybreak attacks a column of four transports with a spread of four Mk 10s. The first transport is hit in the stern with one weapon and the torpex warhead blows the stern off the ship leaving the forward half to float and eventually capsize 35 minutes later. The second ship in the column is hit with the remaining three Mk 10s in succession and the combination of the torpex warheads and a sympathetic ammo explosion in the aft hold virtually vaporizes the ship. It sinks in seconds with no survivors. The third ship in line is struck by debris and is set on fire. It manages to stay afloat and complete its mission. General Masaharu Homma is onboard the first transport. He survives, but a portion of this staff and much of their communications equipment is lost. Chapple subsequently takes his boat further into the gulf and spots the Hayo Maru, a 5,445 ton transport at anchor offloading troops. He attacks with two Mk 10s and the Hayo Maru sinks in shallow water.

OTL result: Only Hayo Maru is sunk. Homma and his staff make it ashore without incident.

24-27 DECEMBER 1941 – Location: South China sea off the coast of Vietnam. Sargo (Jacobs) makes a series of carefully planned and executed attacks on five freighters and one tanker. All are sunk. Jacobs is subsequently awarded the Navy Cross for this patrol.

OTL result: Jacobs ended this patrol supremely frustrated as no ships were sunk. An ordnance officer and one of the few Submarine Qualified officers in the Gun Club, the erratic performance of the torpedoes, especially of the Mk 6 exploder immediately led Jacobs to believe that the weapons were faulty. He reported this in detail in his patrol report and was promptly reprimanded for it.

19 JANUARY 1942 – Location: Subic Bay near Binanga. PT-34 (Chandler/Bulkeley) in the company of PT-31 (DeLong) enters Subic Bay at night in search of a reported four Japanese ships. After being engaged by shore batteries, PT-34 engages a freighter estimated at 5,000 tons. Two Mk 13 torpedoes are launched and both hit. The freighter is observed by both the 34 boat and by American shore observers to break in half and sink 10 minutes later.

OTL result: Reported but unconfirmed sinking.

24 JANUARY 1942 – Location: Subic Bay. PT-41 (DeLong/Bulkeley) glides into Subic Bay and attacks a new 6,000 ton anchored transport. Two Mk 13 torpedoes strike fore and aft. The transport slowly capsizes and sinks as the 41 boat makes a hasty retreat.

OTL result: Reported damage but no sinking.

01 FEBRUARY 1942 – Location: Subic Bay. PT-32 (Schumacher) once again enters MTB Squadron 3s favorite hunting grounds. He sights what he thinks is a cruiser, but he actually attacks the large minelayer Yaeyama and sinks her with two Mk 13s.

OTL result: Minor damage to the Yaeyama.

09 APRIL 1942 – Location: Tanon Straight between Cebu and Negros Islands. PT-41 (Cox/Bulkeley) and a barely operable PT-34 (Kelly) engage in a running gun and torpedo battle with the light cruiser Kuma and the large torpedo boat/destroyer Kiji. In a finely executed and superbly aggressive attack both Kuma and Kiji are sunk. Cox and Kelly are awarded the Silver Star.

OTL result: Kuma suffers minor damage from a dud hit in her bow. Interestingly, PT-41 fired Mk 14 torpedoes in this battle, having taken them on from a submarine due to the lack of Mk 8s in Cebu. ITTL, Mk 13s are plentiful.

Unfortunately, despite these aggressive actions, U.S. and P.I. forces could not stem the tide of the Japanese. A loss of some supplies and Homma’s brush with death slowed the Japanese timetable, allowing a brave if not futile final stand on Bataan and Corregidor. Allied forces surrendered to the Japanese on 30 May 1942.
 
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