...Those Marvelous Tin Fish: The Great Torpedo Scandal Avoided

I mean, there's also the factor of industrial capability: Japan's ability to replace lost transport ships was far exceeded by the rate that US submarines could sink.

Something interesting to note is that the American naval command apparently did the math, and figured out that Japan could not replace the destroyers it lost in adequate time and numbers. As a result, US submarines tended to be more aggressive against IJN destroyers, furthering damaging Japanese ASW capabilities.

You know that when the enemy is using what your asset is supposed to counter to attack said counter, either the enemy is incredibly bold (and/or stupid) or you are doing something incredibly wrong. In the case of the Pacific theater, that turned out to be the latter.

Even though US submarines mainly targeted supply ships, transports and the like, they still wrecked havoc on actual warships, as much as or even more so than the Japanese submarines despite their famous successes like Yorktown, Wasp, and Juneau. In addition to the aforementioned destroyers, US submarines also killed several cruisers (Atago, Maya, Tama, and Isuzu), carriers (Shoukaku, Unryuu, Taihou, Shinano (Japan's pitiful damage control abilities came into play on the latter two)), and even the battleship Kongou, a feat the IJN never managed.

This is, of course, not even mentioning US submarine radar, which gave them the ability to hunt and sink Japanese submarines (which they did). Japan was pretty much unaware of this ability, and oftentimes misattributed submarines lost in this way to aircraft. The British, despite having to deal with radar-wielding U-boats, also conducted attacks like these, and did manage to sink a number of U-boats with their own submarines.

Given these factors, it's no wonder some say the submarine service cut down the war's time by six months. Working torpedos at the start of the war may cut down the war's time by another 6 months, or maybe even a year.
23t8ts.jpg

(If you're wondering, the number 1392 refers to the number of ships US submarines sank during the war)
 
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McPherson

Banned
Is the 1392 just in the Pacific or entirely during WW2?

Those look like JANAC numbers.

In this otherwise hilarious thread, there is a claim that 15,000 Japanese vessels of all types were sunk. My reasonable guess is that: is perhaps based on everything from a punt up to and including IJN vessels bombed or scuttled at pier-side just before the surrender, someone magically arrived at those numbers. That 15,000 would have to include every rowboat, fishing sampan and even dinghies the Japanese lost to whatever cause attributed. No way could the US submarine fleet have sunk that much shipping.
 
Is the 1392 just in the Pacific or entirely during WW2?
Since AFAIK the ETO boats sank nothing but ice cubes...:rolleyes:

And that 1392 seems high, too: from memory, it was 180 in '42, 350 in '43, 602 in '44, & almost nothing in '45, but maybe they're counting small junks & such.
 

McPherson

Banned
Since AFAIK the ETO boats sank nothing but ice cubes...:rolleyes:

And that 1392 seems high, too: from memory, it was 180 in '42, 350 in '43, 602 in '44, & almost nothing in '45, but maybe they're counting small junks & such.

That includes Japanese warships. ~1200 freighters and ~200 IJN combatants.
 
Thanks PHX1138 and McPherson for the replies. Well no matter what, OTL submarine force did a hell of a job. With better torpedoes sooner, more active and aggressive commanders from the start, and the willingness to go into the dragon's lair and knock off shipping near the main routes and ports, the USN should rack up some good numbers fairly quickly.

A side note, but if there are better torpedoes earlier, might the PT boats get in their punches with better results?
 
A side note, but if there are better torpedoes earlier, might the PT boats get in their punches with better results?
Enough to sink a few extra IJN warships, especially if they run the Tokyo Express. Maybe (just) enough to change the outcome of a battle or two.

My guess is, it wouldn't change enough to notice, except by the kind of people on this board.:)
 

McPherson

Banned
You "cough" need better PT boat skippers. Harem Scarem charge at them does not work. Team work and situational awareness does. Many of those skippers were picked for elan, not brains.

The Mark XIII when fixed was a rather good PT boat torpedo.
 

McPherson

Banned
In case one is wondering about Mark XIV circular runs?

Look at Page 79. Follow the linkages from the gyro/depth setter assembly to the rudder/planes pivot assemblies. There is a built-in jam feature right where the semicircular annul half ring crosses the upper rudder pivot point. What mechanically happens is that as the torpedo sine waves through the water and as the torpedo depth control joggles the tail planes up and down to keep the torpedo at proper depth, the annul bridge (that half circle metal ring) joggles back and forth. If the torpedo attempts to broach, that ring bangs forward into the upper rudder pivot, and if the upper rudder pivot (see the flanged edge?), is actuated left or right more than 30 degrees (hard to tell from the photo) it gets knocked hard over and it locks. An attempted gyro recovery is impossible because the gyro will waste its air charge trying to recover and then tumbles. So in addition to the hydraulic or electrical fails at the gyro compartment, we can now add mechanical rudder jam.

The collars, added to the Mark XV torpedo, separated the two control assemblies with bang barrier ring assemblies that prevented this mechanical jamming from occurring. AFAICT, the reason the Mark XIV did not get the feature could be because it would make the torpedo too long to fit the submarine torpedo tube.

If that is the case, (The urge to keep as much commonality between the Mark XIV and Mark XV and still keep the Mark XIV "short" and the designers knew this in 1930 and persisted with it clear to the post war fixes.), then somebody really was potentially criminally negligent in the engineering sense.

That tail control linkage setup is just awful. My opinion.
 
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Post 5 - Developing Alternatives and Live Testing, 1923
DEVELOPING ALTERNATIVES AND LIVE TESTING, 1923-1925

Working in parallel in case the search for new explosives failed, a highly secret research project had been initiated in April 1922 at Newport. Fearing the newer and thicker armor of the modern battleships would negate the explosive effects of a torpedo, this project was intended to find a method of detonating the weapon under the ship, were there was no armor. Using the ship’s natural magnetic field seemed to be the most likely avenue. Realizing the paradigm shift in naval warfare that this could cause, only the 10 members of the Council and three other research engineers at Newport were aware of the project. Known originally simply as project G 53, knowledge of the project was on a strict need-to-know basis and work was highly compartmentalized, with individual component engineers often not knowing the big picture. The task was daunting as magnetism and electricity was still a bit of an arcane science and the state of the art was in its infancy.

An effort to develop a torpedo propelled by electric motors had been percolating at Newport since 1917. The primary advantage over the wet-heater types (Mk. 7, 8, 9, & 10) was that an electric torpedo would not leave a visible wake, as the exhaust from the steam turbines of the other types did. The Sperry Corp. had been assigned a research contract and had produced a sub-scale (7.25”) test weapon, but there was not a lot of enthusiasm in BuOrd and work proceeded at a snail’s pace until the full size EL Mk 1 came along in 1923. As with the highly secret G 53 project, the engineers struggled with the technology and the EL Mk 1 was never successful. Even still, one small laboratory at Newport continued to tinker with the project during the 20’s.

The FLO had been pushing hard to conduct live testing of torpedoes. It was argued that this was the only way to get realistic end to end testing and it would also give submarine, destroyer, and torpedo plane crews valuable experience in preparing and firing warshots. This concept was supported by the Council and the SecNav, but ran into trouble with Congress over cost. Franklin Roosevelt, convalescing from his experience with polio, used this issue to reinsert himself into his beloved project. He used his political influence to clear the objections and get the needed funds allocated, Congress agreeing once a compromise had been reached. Obsolete and decommissioned ships would be allocated, but the Council and the FLO would have to share them with the other Navy branches as gunnery and bombing targets. Further destructive testing would be done on two new testing ranges. Based on a survey by the FLO, the Council obtained permission to set up Torpedo Testing Range Atlantic in the Mt Desert Narrows off Bar Harbor, Maine. Uninhabited Bald Porcupine Island and its’ sheer cliffs would serve as the target. Torpedo Testing Range Pacific would be set up at Kahoolawe Island in Hawaii. SecNav established a training policy in which every torpedo capable commissioned warship and aircraft squadron was required to fire at least one warshot every two years, either on the test ranges or against a target ship.

This new policy had the side effect of restarting low-rate production on the Mk 7, 8, & 10 torpedoes, and also prompted development work on the new Mk 11 destroyer torpedo. Expenditures during live testing would have to be replaced and luckily Bliss and Alexandria had retained the production tooling. The Mk 11 and its follow-on Mk 12 were not intended for mass production, serving mostly as a production development model intended to demonstrate a long range, multi-speed weapon.

Author’s note: Project G 53 was the beginning of the infamous Mk 6 magnetic influence exploder. Both it and the electric torpedo project (pretty much verbatim from the OTL) will produce results ITTL, both good and bad, as you will see in upcoming chapters. The lack of realistic live testing was cited as a causal factor in the Great Torpedo Scandal. Unbelievably, by 07 December 1941, virtually no one in the USN had ever seen or heard an actual torpedo warhead detonation! My timeline here has corrected that. IOTL both Bald Porcupine and Kahoolawe Islands were used for live testing, but not until the war started.
 
Thanks for the update. Having dual stages to develop torpedoes will be helpful. By doing things better ITTL we will have better torpedy. As you say, there will be setbacks and false leads, but by the time war comes, the USN will have weapons that work as designed.
 
You "cough" need better PT boat skippers. Harem Scarem charge at them does not work. Team work and situational awareness does. Many of those skippers were picked for elan, not brains.

The Mark XIII when fixed was a rather good PT boat torpedo.

The Butterflies of Fate are flapping their wings here... standby for later chapters ;)
 
AFAICT, the reason the Mark XIV did not get the feature could be because it would make the torpedo too long to fit the submarine torpedo tube.
If true, that's a bullshit argument: the torpedo & tube were designed together, with the tube made to fit. That's why the Mark XIVs can't be used in (21") S-boat tubes: the Mark Xs were shorter.
If that is the case, (The urge to keep as much commonality between the Mark XIV and Mark XV and still keep the Mark XIV "short" and the designers knew this in 1930 and persisted with it clear to the post war fixes.), then somebody really was potentially criminally negligent in the engineering sense.

That tail control linkage setup is just awful. My opinion.
It was criminally bad.:mad:
DEVELOPING ALTERNATIVES AND LIVE TESTING, 1923-1925
Well done, again. I'm seeing small changes adding up. The possibilities are exciting.:cool:
 

SsgtC

Banned
Honestly, the best timelines are the ones that start with small, seemingly insignificant changes and snowball from there. Very, very good so far Chief
 
With the development of this new kind of torpedo, Yamato may not survive into 1945.

On Christmas Day, 1943, SS-305 USS Skate attacked Yamato with a spread of four torpedoes, one of which impacted near the Yamato's torpedo bulge and caused Yamato to take on about 3000 tons of water. However, that obviously wasn't even close to actually sinking Yamato, and Yamato reached her destination of Truk later that day.

With this new torpedo that goes under torpedo bulges, Yamato may not be so lucky in this timeline. A hell of a Christmas gift (and gives USS Skate a leg up both in the largest ship sunk and possibly in total tonnage sunk)
 

McPherson

Banned
McPherson said:
AFAICT, the reason the Mark XIV did not get the feature could be because it would make the torpedo too long to fit the submarine torpedo tube.
If true, that's a bullshit argument: the torpedo & tube were designed together, with the tube made to fit. That's why the Mark XIVs can't be used in (21") S-boat tubes: the Mark Xs were shorter.

You know the Mark XV may have been originally designed without the feature? And when the torpedo launcher was designed, somebody could have said "Whoops!" and "fixed" it. It is easier to modify a surface ship launcher than a submarine torpedo tube which is a complete pressure lock system. In any case, the torpedo air flask section could have been modified (It was for the Mark 16 obviously) and the Mark XV tail control adopted in the afterbody. Something else may be going on. I just have not found it yet.
 
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