I think he's aware, and depending on what direction this timeline goes, might well prove accurate.
Things Fall Apart
- Thread starter Scipio Africanus
- Start date
I think he's aware, and depending on what direction this timeline goes, might well prove accurate.
The title is actually a line from the Yeats poem "The Second Coming," that book also stole it. Velasco, I'd love for you to do that. What kind of map do you need? MNP, here is the link to the map I've been using: http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/france_1453.htm
Scipio
Scipio
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Just to let everyone know, I will post the next update in the next few days.
Scipio
Scipio
Update
Chapter 1: Sad Tidings
Part 3: Between a Rock and a Hard Place
“The Third War of French Succession” by Jean de la Rivière Paris, 1920
In April 1423, as Henry the Conqueror exerted pressure on Maine and the and the Orléanais, Thomas of Aquitaine landed in Gacony. The English Duchy had been neglected of late by the Crown, and his arrival sent a jolt of life into Thomas’s new principality. He arrived with 3000 mounted men-at-arms [1]. His strategy was to coerce the great magnates of the southwest the recognize his lordship and support him in war against the King of France. War immediately began, as Charles II, Lord of Albret was married to an Armagnac. However, Albret was outnumbered, and his lordship was soon overcome by English soldiers. Charles of Albret pleaded to the Daupin Charles, but he could not spare troops from the war in the north, defending his increasingly embattled claim to the French Crown.
Thomas of Aquitaine next moved down the Garonne river valley with an Anglo-Gascon army numbering about 4000. The Agenais was put under increasing pressure, but Agen itself remained out of Lancastrian hands. Charles of Albret moved into the region with a small force to counterattack. It met with limited success, and a stalemate soon fell across the Garonne valley. The Duke of Aquitaine next sent diplomatic feelers out to John of Foix-Grailly. One of the greatest lords of the south, John had extensive lands along the Pyrenees along the southern flank of Gascony and Languedoc [2]. Thomas of Aquitaine attempted to exploit the ancient feud between Armagnac and Foix. Offering John of Foix military support in exchange for a change of allegiance. However, this change would come at a high cost. In exchange for recognizing Henry II of France as his king, he would be granted all the lands of Armagnac [3]. This would give the House of Foix-Grailly the preeminent house of the south, and one of the greatest princely house in all of France.
“Henry the Conqueror” by John Page London, 1933
Henry II spent much of the mid 1420s consolidating his hold on northern France and taking control of Maine. In 1425, Le Mans fell to English troops. However, the Loire proved a near-impenetrable barrier, heavily fortified at all crossing point. 1425 also saw the submission of John of Brittany to Henry, provided that he not provide troops to aid Henry in the war [4]. Henry was preparing a great campaign to cross the Loire and invade Berry, the center of the Dauphin’s power. To do this, he would need to rally support from England as well as France, and thus he decide to personally return to England and call a Parliament in August of 1425.
“The House of Burgundy and the Birth of the Low Countries” by Johan Vander Zanden Brussels, 1931
Phillip of Burgundy spent much of 1422 in negotiation for a marriage contract with his second wife, the beautiful Bonne of Artois. Marriage to her allowed Phillip to gain control of the Burgundy-Nevers inheritance, becoming the stepfather of Charles and John of Nevers. The marriage of the two at Arras in November 1422 saw a reunion of the entire Burgundian clan, presided over by the aging John the Fearless. Years of war and politicking had taken its toll on the man, now 53. He had spent much of the last few years strengthening the Burgundian administration of Champagne, centered at Troyes.
In 1423, Phillip continued the war against John of Bavaria. While his 1421 campaign had been dominated by his attempt to conquer Luxemburg, the 1423 campaign instead tried to dislodge John of Bavaria’s troops from Holland. He spent 3 months laying siege to Dordrecht, the center of John of Bavaria’s power in Holland. However, after the city fell, instead of returning it to Jacqueline of Hainault, he retained control of the city.
Anthony of Brabant proved to be an incredibly sickly child, slow witted like his father instead of sharp and passionate like his mother. Jacqueline was the informal ruler of the entirety of Brabant, Hainault and Holland, since her husband was a nonentity and she had produced an heir. Although keeping of the appearance of a marriage, the relationship between her and John of Brabant was broken, and she was wildly unfaithful to her husband.
1424 saw Phillip, who was increasingly exercising power in the Burgundian in conjunction with his father, although remaining simply Count of Charolais, began gathering a large army to defeat John of Bavaria once and for all and gain control of Luxemburg. John of Bavaria’s wife, Elisabeth of Luxemburg, saw the folly in her political marriage for it had dragged her principality into her husband’s war and had failed to produce an heir. The 1424 campaign was led by Phillip the Good in conjunction with Phillip, Count of St. Pol and John of Croy. A large army of 10,000 men was gathered, with 5000 men at arms, 3000 infantrymen, 2000 archers and a relatively large artillery train for the period [5]. The army set out from Namur in April 1424, attempting to force a decisive battle. It cut though Luxemburg, wasting the countryside as it went. John of Bavaria was finally forced to confront the Burgundians, with his own army of 7000 men. The two armies clashed outside of Bastogne, in what has become known as the battle of Bastogne, on May 15, 1424. The Luxemburger force was outnumbered, but was able to hold its ground for much of the day. The men at arms on both sides dismounted, and fought in a muddy field while being pelted by archers and crossbowmen. However, a mounted charge led by Phillip of St.Pol was able to take the Luxemburger army by surprise, and its left flank collapsed. Sadly, Phillip of St. Pol, cousin of Phillip the Good and a great captain, died in the charge. His brother John of Brabant was saddened by the passing of his brother, who had always been far stronger and more able than he himself. John of Bavaria was taken prisoner after the battle.
Elisabeth of Luxemburg saw that there was no hope for victory. In the treaty of Bruges, 1424, Elisabeth recognized Phillip the Good as her heir, and ceded several strong points to him within her duchy. Her husband was to remain Phillip’s captive until she paid the enormous ransom of 500,000 francs. John of Bavaria would die in captivity. Thus ended the Luxemburg war, and the Low Countries moved ever more firmly into Burgundian control.
1. Historically the most men to by sent across the Bay of Biscay during the war.
2. Centered around Béarn and Foix, with smaller amounts of territory in between the two and a chunk of territory in between the Tarn and Garonne south of Albi.
3. Principally, the Counties of Armagnac and Rodez.
4. This is two years later than OTL, and not in conjunction with Burgundy.
5. Artillery is just starting to become prominent during this period, but medieval fortifications still provided a strong defense. Only later in the 15th century would it gain in prominence and change the nature of warfare.
Authors note: That was my first description of a battle. I will try to make them more detailed as time goes on. I'm happy to take and questions, comments, concerns. Here is a link to a valois family tree to show how all these characters of related.
Chapter 1: Sad Tidings
Part 3: Between a Rock and a Hard Place
“The Third War of French Succession” by Jean de la Rivière Paris, 1920
In April 1423, as Henry the Conqueror exerted pressure on Maine and the and the Orléanais, Thomas of Aquitaine landed in Gacony. The English Duchy had been neglected of late by the Crown, and his arrival sent a jolt of life into Thomas’s new principality. He arrived with 3000 mounted men-at-arms [1]. His strategy was to coerce the great magnates of the southwest the recognize his lordship and support him in war against the King of France. War immediately began, as Charles II, Lord of Albret was married to an Armagnac. However, Albret was outnumbered, and his lordship was soon overcome by English soldiers. Charles of Albret pleaded to the Daupin Charles, but he could not spare troops from the war in the north, defending his increasingly embattled claim to the French Crown.
Thomas of Aquitaine next moved down the Garonne river valley with an Anglo-Gascon army numbering about 4000. The Agenais was put under increasing pressure, but Agen itself remained out of Lancastrian hands. Charles of Albret moved into the region with a small force to counterattack. It met with limited success, and a stalemate soon fell across the Garonne valley. The Duke of Aquitaine next sent diplomatic feelers out to John of Foix-Grailly. One of the greatest lords of the south, John had extensive lands along the Pyrenees along the southern flank of Gascony and Languedoc [2]. Thomas of Aquitaine attempted to exploit the ancient feud between Armagnac and Foix. Offering John of Foix military support in exchange for a change of allegiance. However, this change would come at a high cost. In exchange for recognizing Henry II of France as his king, he would be granted all the lands of Armagnac [3]. This would give the House of Foix-Grailly the preeminent house of the south, and one of the greatest princely house in all of France.
“Henry the Conqueror” by John Page London, 1933
Henry II spent much of the mid 1420s consolidating his hold on northern France and taking control of Maine. In 1425, Le Mans fell to English troops. However, the Loire proved a near-impenetrable barrier, heavily fortified at all crossing point. 1425 also saw the submission of John of Brittany to Henry, provided that he not provide troops to aid Henry in the war [4]. Henry was preparing a great campaign to cross the Loire and invade Berry, the center of the Dauphin’s power. To do this, he would need to rally support from England as well as France, and thus he decide to personally return to England and call a Parliament in August of 1425.
“The House of Burgundy and the Birth of the Low Countries” by Johan Vander Zanden Brussels, 1931
Phillip of Burgundy spent much of 1422 in negotiation for a marriage contract with his second wife, the beautiful Bonne of Artois. Marriage to her allowed Phillip to gain control of the Burgundy-Nevers inheritance, becoming the stepfather of Charles and John of Nevers. The marriage of the two at Arras in November 1422 saw a reunion of the entire Burgundian clan, presided over by the aging John the Fearless. Years of war and politicking had taken its toll on the man, now 53. He had spent much of the last few years strengthening the Burgundian administration of Champagne, centered at Troyes.
In 1423, Phillip continued the war against John of Bavaria. While his 1421 campaign had been dominated by his attempt to conquer Luxemburg, the 1423 campaign instead tried to dislodge John of Bavaria’s troops from Holland. He spent 3 months laying siege to Dordrecht, the center of John of Bavaria’s power in Holland. However, after the city fell, instead of returning it to Jacqueline of Hainault, he retained control of the city.
Anthony of Brabant proved to be an incredibly sickly child, slow witted like his father instead of sharp and passionate like his mother. Jacqueline was the informal ruler of the entirety of Brabant, Hainault and Holland, since her husband was a nonentity and she had produced an heir. Although keeping of the appearance of a marriage, the relationship between her and John of Brabant was broken, and she was wildly unfaithful to her husband.
1424 saw Phillip, who was increasingly exercising power in the Burgundian in conjunction with his father, although remaining simply Count of Charolais, began gathering a large army to defeat John of Bavaria once and for all and gain control of Luxemburg. John of Bavaria’s wife, Elisabeth of Luxemburg, saw the folly in her political marriage for it had dragged her principality into her husband’s war and had failed to produce an heir. The 1424 campaign was led by Phillip the Good in conjunction with Phillip, Count of St. Pol and John of Croy. A large army of 10,000 men was gathered, with 5000 men at arms, 3000 infantrymen, 2000 archers and a relatively large artillery train for the period [5]. The army set out from Namur in April 1424, attempting to force a decisive battle. It cut though Luxemburg, wasting the countryside as it went. John of Bavaria was finally forced to confront the Burgundians, with his own army of 7000 men. The two armies clashed outside of Bastogne, in what has become known as the battle of Bastogne, on May 15, 1424. The Luxemburger force was outnumbered, but was able to hold its ground for much of the day. The men at arms on both sides dismounted, and fought in a muddy field while being pelted by archers and crossbowmen. However, a mounted charge led by Phillip of St.Pol was able to take the Luxemburger army by surprise, and its left flank collapsed. Sadly, Phillip of St. Pol, cousin of Phillip the Good and a great captain, died in the charge. His brother John of Brabant was saddened by the passing of his brother, who had always been far stronger and more able than he himself. John of Bavaria was taken prisoner after the battle.
Elisabeth of Luxemburg saw that there was no hope for victory. In the treaty of Bruges, 1424, Elisabeth recognized Phillip the Good as her heir, and ceded several strong points to him within her duchy. Her husband was to remain Phillip’s captive until she paid the enormous ransom of 500,000 francs. John of Bavaria would die in captivity. Thus ended the Luxemburg war, and the Low Countries moved ever more firmly into Burgundian control.
1. Historically the most men to by sent across the Bay of Biscay during the war.
2. Centered around Béarn and Foix, with smaller amounts of territory in between the two and a chunk of territory in between the Tarn and Garonne south of Albi.
3. Principally, the Counties of Armagnac and Rodez.
4. This is two years later than OTL, and not in conjunction with Burgundy.
5. Artillery is just starting to become prominent during this period, but medieval fortifications still provided a strong defense. Only later in the 15th century would it gain in prominence and change the nature of warfare.
Authors note: That was my first description of a battle. I will try to make them more detailed as time goes on. I'm happy to take and questions, comments, concerns. Here is a link to a valois family tree to show how all these characters of related.
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'tis been quite an interesting read so far. I would have liked to see John the Fearless featured more, but I understand he is not the focus of the TL despite the PoD revolving around his survival. Plantagenet France will be interesting, and it's nice to see that John thinks far enough ahead to sow a seed of future disunity - intentional or not - in the Treaty of Paris. As an event in Europa Universalis 2's AGCEEP mod so aptly states: "Nothing could be more repugnant to the interests of the house of Burgundy than to unite the crowns of France and England on the same head"
Keep up the good work! I'd offer my cartographic services, but I'm afraid I already have a considerable backlog to get through. Might do something later though.
Keep up the good work! I'd offer my cartographic services, but I'm afraid I already have a considerable backlog to get through. Might do something later though.
Thanks for the comments guys. I've started work on the next part, it should be up in a few days. Kuld von Reyn, I will make sure to feature John the Fearless more before he dies (about 1430). MNP, are you happy with the map I linked a few posts back? The English have now reached that red line in the north and pushed past it in Gascony.
Scipio
Scipio
Well, I am assuming that their marriage was consummated, however unhappy it was. Here, she is impregnated before leaving her husband. I find Jaqueline a very interesting character, and she will be feature more here. Obviously I will also have to find another spouse for Humphrey of Gloucester as well -- any suggestions?
Scipio
Chapter 1: Sad Tidings
Part 4: The Worst are Full of Passionate Intensity
Paris, June 1426
The two princes met in great ceremony outside the Royal Palace on the Île de la Cité. John the Fearless, surrounded by vassal lords and knights. King Henry, surrounded by his own retainers. They were both sumptuously dressed, John in a purple robe embroidered with mythical creatures, Henry in red. As the two men met, John knelt in deference. What a disgrace it was to kneel before this English king! However, he did as he had to.
After the formalities were over, the two men retired to a private meeting to discuss the war. “I hope all is well in your domains, John of Bugundy,” said King Henry, “I hear that your son has triumphed against the those who would seek to displace your house from the Low Countries.” “Indeed he has, King of France, he won a great victory at Bastogne, however, I have been informed that your war against the false Dauphin is also succeeding,” said John.
“Yes, the Dauphin is weak, and my brother Thomas has taken much land in the south. All the land north of the Loire acknowledges my kingship, but to the south the Dauphin remains strong,” replied King Henry. The King got up and paced about the room, uneasily. “I call upon you for aid. Help me defeat this King of Bourges [1] and conquer all of the kingdom.”
“What is it you need, my lord?” asked John. He was reluctant to come to the aid of the King of France and England. It gained his house nothing to end the war. As long as the two sides vied for control of France, Burgundy could prosper and continue its eastern expansion.
“An army, an army to cross the Loire, and take Bourges with its false King,” replied King Henry. “Last year, Parliament in England granted me funds to raise and army. Soon, I shall call the Estates General to raise more money. With your aid, next year we shall be able to once and for all unite the kingdom, after these long years of war and suffering,” replied the king.
“I shall see my lord, I will give you all the aid I can,” said Duke John. The two men feigned respect, but under the surface their was much hostility between the two. As John left the palace to return to the Hôtel d’Artois, he mulled over the kings request. He would have to acquiesce, for to deny his liege lord aid would surely mean war. And, it seemed, the time was not yet right to turn against the House of Lancaster.
“The Third War of French Succession” by Jean de la Rivière Paris, 1920
The 1426 meeting of Henry the Conqueror and John the Fearless was a major points of the Third War of French Succession. It reaffirmed the Lancaster-Burgundy alliance and laid the groundwork for the 1427 campaign that would mark the beginning of the last throes of the Valois monarchy. John the Fearless’s commitment of a large Burgundian army was a surprise, as before Burgundian troops had played a limited role and always fought with English troops. The 1427 campaign, as it was planned during the second half of 1427, envisioned English and Burgundian armies moving separately. The English would lay siege to and take Orleans, while the Burgundian army would cross the Loire in Burgundy. The two forces would move through Berry and jointly lay siege to Bourges, the Dauphinist stronghold. . . .
It is certain that without the support of the House of Burgundy, Henry V could have never conquered France. With its much larger population and greater wealth, the conquest is astonishing the modern eyes. Yet, this was not like the Norman conquest, and the House of Lancaster sought to preserve the status quo and gain the support of the French nobility instead of replacing it. Through playing off the French princes, Henry was able to slowly gain the support of Burgundians, the Montforts of Brittany, the House of Foix-Grailly and later many other great houses. However, the House of Lancaster’s dependence on these great princes to rule France was a recipe for disaster. The Third War of French Succession allowed the Burgundians to expand and propel themselves into a major European power, a trend which would only continue under Phillip the Good and his now legendary son. In hindsight one can easily see that before the Third War of French succession had ended, the seeds for the Fourth War of French Succession were being sown [2].
1. OTL and ITTL, a derisive name for Charles VII because Bourges was the de facto capital of his kingdom while the English held Paris.
2. What can I say, a little foreshadowing can be fun sometimes.
A review of marriages and issue so far in the timeline (1419-1426):
-Henry V has married Catherine of Valois, and so far had two children – Henry, born 1422 and Edward, born 1424. Henry’s survival has allowed the couple to have more children.
-Phillip the Good married Bonne of Artois in 1422. The couple has so far only had one child, a daughter named Mary, born 1423. However, Bonne is pregnant again and a son is expected.
-Thomas of Aquitaine (brother of Henry V) married Agnes of Burgundy in 1423, they have had one son so far, William, born 1425.
Author's Note: Sorry for such a long time between updates. I have been very busy this month finishing high school and graduating, but now I am done so you can all expect more updates soon! Also, how does everyone feel about the vignettes? I am new at them.
Scipio
Part 4: The Worst are Full of Passionate Intensity
Paris, June 1426
The two princes met in great ceremony outside the Royal Palace on the Île de la Cité. John the Fearless, surrounded by vassal lords and knights. King Henry, surrounded by his own retainers. They were both sumptuously dressed, John in a purple robe embroidered with mythical creatures, Henry in red. As the two men met, John knelt in deference. What a disgrace it was to kneel before this English king! However, he did as he had to.
After the formalities were over, the two men retired to a private meeting to discuss the war. “I hope all is well in your domains, John of Bugundy,” said King Henry, “I hear that your son has triumphed against the those who would seek to displace your house from the Low Countries.” “Indeed he has, King of France, he won a great victory at Bastogne, however, I have been informed that your war against the false Dauphin is also succeeding,” said John.
“Yes, the Dauphin is weak, and my brother Thomas has taken much land in the south. All the land north of the Loire acknowledges my kingship, but to the south the Dauphin remains strong,” replied King Henry. The King got up and paced about the room, uneasily. “I call upon you for aid. Help me defeat this King of Bourges [1] and conquer all of the kingdom.”
“What is it you need, my lord?” asked John. He was reluctant to come to the aid of the King of France and England. It gained his house nothing to end the war. As long as the two sides vied for control of France, Burgundy could prosper and continue its eastern expansion.
“An army, an army to cross the Loire, and take Bourges with its false King,” replied King Henry. “Last year, Parliament in England granted me funds to raise and army. Soon, I shall call the Estates General to raise more money. With your aid, next year we shall be able to once and for all unite the kingdom, after these long years of war and suffering,” replied the king.
“I shall see my lord, I will give you all the aid I can,” said Duke John. The two men feigned respect, but under the surface their was much hostility between the two. As John left the palace to return to the Hôtel d’Artois, he mulled over the kings request. He would have to acquiesce, for to deny his liege lord aid would surely mean war. And, it seemed, the time was not yet right to turn against the House of Lancaster.
“The Third War of French Succession” by Jean de la Rivière Paris, 1920
The 1426 meeting of Henry the Conqueror and John the Fearless was a major points of the Third War of French Succession. It reaffirmed the Lancaster-Burgundy alliance and laid the groundwork for the 1427 campaign that would mark the beginning of the last throes of the Valois monarchy. John the Fearless’s commitment of a large Burgundian army was a surprise, as before Burgundian troops had played a limited role and always fought with English troops. The 1427 campaign, as it was planned during the second half of 1427, envisioned English and Burgundian armies moving separately. The English would lay siege to and take Orleans, while the Burgundian army would cross the Loire in Burgundy. The two forces would move through Berry and jointly lay siege to Bourges, the Dauphinist stronghold. . . .
It is certain that without the support of the House of Burgundy, Henry V could have never conquered France. With its much larger population and greater wealth, the conquest is astonishing the modern eyes. Yet, this was not like the Norman conquest, and the House of Lancaster sought to preserve the status quo and gain the support of the French nobility instead of replacing it. Through playing off the French princes, Henry was able to slowly gain the support of Burgundians, the Montforts of Brittany, the House of Foix-Grailly and later many other great houses. However, the House of Lancaster’s dependence on these great princes to rule France was a recipe for disaster. The Third War of French Succession allowed the Burgundians to expand and propel themselves into a major European power, a trend which would only continue under Phillip the Good and his now legendary son. In hindsight one can easily see that before the Third War of French succession had ended, the seeds for the Fourth War of French Succession were being sown [2].
1. OTL and ITTL, a derisive name for Charles VII because Bourges was the de facto capital of his kingdom while the English held Paris.
2. What can I say, a little foreshadowing can be fun sometimes.
A review of marriages and issue so far in the timeline (1419-1426):
-Henry V has married Catherine of Valois, and so far had two children – Henry, born 1422 and Edward, born 1424. Henry’s survival has allowed the couple to have more children.
-Phillip the Good married Bonne of Artois in 1422. The couple has so far only had one child, a daughter named Mary, born 1423. However, Bonne is pregnant again and a son is expected.
-Thomas of Aquitaine (brother of Henry V) married Agnes of Burgundy in 1423, they have had one son so far, William, born 1425.
Author's Note: Sorry for such a long time between updates. I have been very busy this month finishing high school and graduating, but now I am done so you can all expect more updates soon! Also, how does everyone feel about the vignettes? I am new at them.
Scipio
Well, yes, but not a happy one! I though about changing her visions, but that was not very plausible given the POD.
Scipio
So how's the development of this TL faring? Vaughan's books, while good, are not sufficient to feed my Burgundy addiction.
Yeah sorry I was away for a month and then got totally busy getting ready and going to college. I am working on the next update now. I agree Vaughan's books are not mind blowing. They are a little dry and he uses to many primary source quotations for my taste (its seems like 1/4 of the books are quotations, a historian should synthesize that information his/her self). I've also been starting to plan an England centered timeline to run parallel to this one with a POD in the mid 1360s (it involves England keeping the Bretigny gains and the Black Prince ascending the throne). Anyway I brought "Phillip the Good" to college as a reference for my timeline, and expect the update within the next week.
Scipio
Scipio
Thats a good idea, I was thinking a English bride but thats a better idea. I'll start combing through some genealogies. I have interesting plans for the Valois-Anjou claim to Aragon incidentally. THe next update is mostly done, expect it within the next few days. Sorry for the two-month hiatus!
Scipio