There Is No Other Way: The Anti-Party Group succeeds

The More Things Change
Hello everyone, this is my first thread, I've wanted to write a wikibox timeline for a long time using this idea. As a disclaimer, I do not condone the political beliefs or ideologies of anyone mentioned in this timeline. Please enjoy.

There Is No Other Way
The More Things Change

4 years after the death of Joseph Stalin, the Soviet Union would stand at a crossroads once more. After a series of radical purges by Khrushchev, including the great Marshal Zhukov who had previously supported Khrushchev, it was not uncommon to find support for the Old Bolsheviks. These calls for a return to Stalin's ideals would reach a fever pitch in the formation of the Anti-party group. Originally a small clique of the Soviet leadership against the liberalization of the Union by Khrushchev, it grew to encompass much of the Politburo by 1957. In an extraordinary session of the Committee in early July, Khrushchev was successfully removed from power in a vote of 8-3, with Premier Nikolai Bulganin set to replace him in the following weeks. Upon hearing of the news Khrushchev flew into a rage, having to be removed from the chamber. Afterwards, Khrushchev was officially removed from power and replaced by Bulganin, now leader of the Soviet Union, though most power rested within the anti-party group and more specifically Vyacheslav Molotov.

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Once officially removed from power, Khrushchev was ironically exiled. Destitute to spend the rest of his days running a collective farm in rural Ukraine, far away from Moscow. As soon as Bulganin became the new First Secretary, Khrushchev's reforms were undone at an unprecedented scale, most of them being nullified by the following year. New laws would come into effect as well, including the rehabilitation of those who Khrushchev denounced and distrusted, save for Zhukov, who remained permanently retired due to his political beliefs. Across the Union, Stalin-era policies began to return, albeit on a lesser scale. The party's grasp on power was also reversed, with more control being given to the Government instead of the Party, which was left with ideological functions only.

Just a few short months after Bulganin took the reigns of power from the Union, Sputnik 1 and later 2 were launched, shocking everyone, especially the United States. The US, having been reassured several times by the Eisenhower Administration that they had the majority of nuclear capabilities over the supposed 'missile gap', suddenly began to question if the Union was instead leading instead. This bombastic flex by the Soviets quickly spurred a series of space initiatives in America, each with varying success. Sputnik would increase Bulganin's popularity drastically, with many praising him for his efforts of one-upping the west, despite Sputnik being funded and created under Khrushchev. Nobody knew it at the time, but this would have drastic effects on global politics and lay the groundwork for the space race. But for now, the Union was mostly at peace and the Anti-party group could focus on fulfilling Lenin's vision.
 
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One For The White House
One For The White House
Ever since their landslide victories in in '52 and '56, the Republicans had triumphantly soared to new heights in the decades since the Depression and Democratic dominance, with Ike and Dick at the forefront of this charge. Though they struggled to control the House and Senate, the Republican margins were still decent enough to get their legislature through. Overall, things looked bright for the Grand Old Party, with Eisenhower being the favorite candidate in both subsequent elections. This rising popularity began to stagnate after the launch of Sputnik 1 and 2 by the Soviet Union. With Hysteria over Sputnik and Soviet Missiles rising, Eisenhower would announce an expansion of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), as a way of combatting the rise of Soviet dominance in the field of space.

In the 1958 Senatorial Elections, it was apparent that the Democrats would gain a majority in the senate once more, with the democrats gaining 8 more seats over the Republicans. Even GOP strongholds flipped to the Democrats, major losses would include several northwestern states and Ohio, but the Republicans would stay in control of several other states, including landslides against some Democrat opposition. The House would also remain under the watch of the Democrats, with an upkeep of 20 more seats in the election, bringing the Democrat majority to 254. Leading to Sam Rayburn's return to his role as speaker of the House.
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By 1960, Vice President Nixon had become the favorite to win for the GOP, after a successful 8 years as Ike's wingman, being instrumental in shaping Eisenhower's domestic and foreign policies. This would be especially the case in the case of the Civil Rights Act of 1960, in which Nixon would famously have a friendly correspondence with Reverend Martin Luther King Jr., solidifying the African-American voting bloc solely for the Republicans in the upcoming election. Though he had won the black vote, he had infuriated the southern Democrats, who mostly rallied around Harry F. Byrd's independent campaign.
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Going into the election, Nixon would choose Henry Cabot Lodge Jr. as his Vice Presidential nominee. Serving in World War 2, Lodge would then go on to serve as the Eisenhower Campaign Manager and the US Ambassador to the United Nations. Seen as a seasoned and experienced Republican, Lodge was seen as the best choice against the Democrats.
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Going against the legacy of and heir to Eisenhower was always going to be a challenge, but the Democrats were confident that their ticket of John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson would claim victory over Nixon. Kennedy, coming from an prominent Boston political family and Johnson, coming from a farm in rural Texas, could not seem further apart. Despite their differences, they would launch a popular campaign across America, earning massive support against the Republicans.

The Nixon/Lodge campaign, not having the former-Supreme Allied Commander and WW2 hero on the ticket, began to weigh down on the Republicans, with the Liberal and Union vote going to Kennedy. Kennedy's charm against Nixon's dull personality had also made several issues for the campaign, with much of the youth vote also going to Kennedy. Despite this however, Nixon still drew in massive support for his anti-communist stance and supposed experience within the Eisenhower Administration. The famous debate where he squared off against Khrushchev was also paraded around, though this had less of an effect on his campaign due to Khrushchev being ousted in '57. Kennedy campaigned on his own skills, as well as the need for fresh blood, as well as using his charm against Nixon wherever he could. After a few gaffes by the Kennedy campaign, including one where Johnson used several derogatory terms for African-Americans and claimed they 'would vote Democrat for a century', As well as a televised debate with a close Nixon victory over a tired and defeated Kennedy, who had been dealing with the fallout of Johnson's words. If not so close to the election, one could assume that Kennedy would have dropped Johnson from the ticket, despite this, the ticket still marched onwards.

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On the morning of November 9th, Americans would wake up to the news that Richard Milhous Nixon was officially elected as the 35th President of the United States of America, with Henry Cabot Lodge to serve as his Vice President. Kennedy would concede a few hours beforehand, having his southern vote split by Byrd's independent campaign, somewhat costing him the election. Nixon's Gambit with the black vote would pay off exponentially, with them turning out in droves on election day for the Republicans, especially after Johnson's gaffe. The Republicans would also see gains in the Senate, as well as chipping away at the Democratic grip on the House. After all the chaotic fervor of the elections, Nixon had come out on top, ready to lead America for the next four years.
 
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"Liberal" Khrushchev vs "Stalinist" hardliners is the usual misconception based on taking blatant Khrushchevian propaganda at face value. There were no Stalinists in the Soviet leadership at the moment, except for maybe Kaganovich, and, to some degree, Molotov. And, like everybody else, both of them were firmly against any purges (Kaganovich having lost in them his brother, Molotov his wife, and many dear personal friends). Anyway, both of them already have lost much of their influence, the real power brokers behind the whole thing were Pervukhin and Saburov, formerly from Malenkov-Beria faction. What they really were proposing, was not some Stalinist bullshit, but tilting the bulk of power from the Party to the Government (hence "Anti-Party" pejorative), eliminating the post of first (or general) secretary of the Central Committee, leaving the Party with ideological functions only.
 
"Liberal" Khrushchev vs "Stalinist" hardliners is the usual misconception based on taking blatant Khrushchevian propaganda at face value. There were no Stalinists in the Soviet leadership at the moment, except for maybe Kaganovich, and, to some degree, Molotov. And, like everybody else, both of them were firmly against any purges (Kaganovich having lost in them his brother, Molotov his wife, and many dear personal friends). Anyway, both of them already have lost much of their influence, the real power brokers behind the whole thing were Pervukhin and Saburov, formerly from Malenkov-Beria faction. What they really were proposing, was not some Stalinist bullshit, but tilting the bulk of power from the Party to the Government (hence "Anti-Party" pejorative), eliminating the post of first (or general) secretary of the Central Committee, leaving the Party with ideological functions only.
You make a good argument, I've taken some of your statements and integrated them into the story. However, I'm still going to have Molotov be the driving force behind the Group, but with a less Stalinist stance. Also, one of the reasons Krushchev loses power in this timeline is his purges, which are more widespread in this timeline, including a purge of Zhukov, which occurs a few months prior to the Group's takeover.
 

RousseauX

Donor
"Liberal" Khrushchev vs "Stalinist" hardliners is the usual misconception based on taking blatant Khrushchevian propaganda at face value. There were no Stalinists in the Soviet leadership at the moment, except for maybe Kaganovich, and, to some degree, Molotov. And, like everybody else, both of them were firmly against any purges (Kaganovich having lost in them his brother, Molotov his wife, and many dear personal friends). Anyway, both of them already have lost much of their influence, the real power brokers behind the whole thing were Pervukhin and Saburov, formerly from Malenkov-Beria faction. What they really were proposing, was not some Stalinist bullshit, but tilting the bulk of power from the Party to the Government (hence "Anti-Party" pejorative), eliminating the post of first (or general) secretary of the Central Committee, leaving the Party with ideological functions only.
Yeah from reading FitzPatricks' book everyone wanted to ditch Stalinism by 1953.

The secret speech/anti-party group was essentially a power struggle rather than a real ideological disagreement: denouncing Stalinism was a means to an end of attacking Molotov and Malenkov's positions within the party. The chief reason why the internal party coup attempt happened was because Khrushchev was consolidating power at the expense of the other senior party members.

We kind of know what an anti-party group victory in 1957 would have being like, because 1964 was basically the exact same thing except the plotters were Khrushchev's own proteges from within his power base so he couldn't fight it.
 
Yeah from reading FitzPatricks' book everyone wanted to ditch Stalinism by 1953.

The secret speech/anti-party group was essentially a power struggle rather than a real ideological disagreement: denouncing Stalinism was a means to an end of attacking Molotov and Malenkov's positions within the party. The chief reason why the internal party coup attempt happened was because Khrushchev was consolidating power at the expense of the other senior party members.

We kind of know what an anti-party group victory in 1957 would have being like, because 1964 was basically the exact same thing except the plotters were Khrushchev's own proteges from within his power base so he couldn't fight it.
yeah I'm kinda basing it on Brehznev's own takeover but with a few different policies, things are also different due to many old party members being in positions of power again, they aren't inherently ideological or Stalinist, more just anti-Krushchev sotospeak.
 
Poyekhali!

Poyekhali!

With Nixon now in the Oval Office, tariff and income tax cuts would begin to come into law in the first few months. Nixon would also sign into law the formation of the Department of Environmental Conservation, which would begin to introduce Environmental protection laws against pollution the following year. By May however, race riots would break out across much of the south, with the freedom bus rides ending in catastrophic failure after Klan members begin firebombing the buses, most famously near Anniston, Alabama, where Governor John Patterson would declare Martial law in an attempt to quell the chaos.

While this was going on, Nixon would appoint Paul D. Harkins and Benjamin Davis Jr. as the head of the US Military and Air Force in Vietnam respectively. Edward Lansdale's Saigon Military Mission was also called back into action, with an expansion of the Mission coming the following year. Lansdale would also pick Michael Rockefeller, who was just a private in the US Military at the time, to be one of his aides while he headed the SMM, earning the ire of some. With the insurgency in Vietnam beginning to expand, Davis, Harkins and Lansdale would work together to bring an effective way of containment to the Vietnamese. Soviet and Chinese arms would funnel into the NLF, nicknamed the 'Vietcong' by Americans, with the rocky relationship between Red China and the Soviets beginning to heal after Khrushchev's dismissal. Soviet and Chinese arms would also begin to arrive in Africa, with many communist and nationalist movements receiving support against the "Imperialist menace".

In a moment soon to be heard the world over, Yuri Gagarin would become the first human to orbit the Earth in Vostok 1, Gagarin would stay in orbit for 108 minutes, before landing safely in Kazakhstan. Gagarin would be given a hero's return in Moscow, personally meeting with First Secretary Bulganin himself, where he would be given the Hero of the Soviet Union award. Though many tries were made by America, it set in that they were bested once again by the Soviets. Nixon would give his famous 'New Frontier' speech in a joint session of Congress, announcing his plan to not only get an American in orbit, but to get one on the moon before the end of the decade. Gagarin would visit several nations, including Britain, Canada, Iceland and most famously, America. Nixon considered barring Gagarin from entry, considering his ties to the USSR, but relented in an effort to ease tensions with the Soviets. Gagarin would not return to his position as a Cosmonaut or even as a Pilot due to the leadership fearing the death of an icon, instead Gagarin would serve as a Cosmonaut instructor, a position where he could not be harmed.
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Also that month, Nixon would give the green light for Operation Tangerine, an operation where American-backed Cuban exiles would launch a coup of Castro's Government.
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. The Invasion would be launched from British Jamaica, where the Brigade 2506 and Frente Revolucionario Democratico (FRD) would then land in the Province of Sancti Spiritus and continue north, capturing key areas across Cuba before making their way to Havana, removing Castro from power. On the day of the invasion, 10 B-29 Bombers and around 20 F-86 Sabre Fighters tore through Cuban military installations and air fields near the landing zone. After the Aircraft had completed their phase of the Operation, several divisions made their way onto the beach, landing and capturing several key positions within the first few hours, including the Town of Trinidad. Castro, caught completely off guard, would struggle to organize a resistance to the rapidly moving forces. After a failed counter-attack and the death of José Ramón Fernández by a Sabre strafing run, Castro would order a retreat north, losing more ground to the FRD. Upon hearing the news, the Escambray would rise up, further disrupting Cuban Military command. Over the course of a few weeks, the revolt would begin to take shape, with the countryside in open revolt against Castro's government and the US blockade around Cuba not allowing any Soviet aid into the nation, Castro did not have the odds in his favor.

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Korea would fall under the control of Park Chung-Hee's Supreme Council for National Reconstruction after a coup in May. Though Yun Posun would retain his post of President, most power would reside within Chung-Hee's grasp, especially after his takeover of the position of Chairman of the Supreme Council. Chung-Hee would have the support of the United States, mostly for his anti-communist stance and pro-capitalist policies in Korea. Chung-Hee would also come to house several Asian anti-communist officials, as well as those fleeing North Korea.
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Ever since the Second World War, the Eastern bloc had suffered massive brain drains as well as losses in manpower, this was most apparent in East Germany. Several thousand would flee the borders of East Germany into the West Germany, causing German leader Walter Ulbricht to ask Bulganin for help in order to keep their people from leaving. By October, the border had been closed between East and West Germany, with anyone trying to leave shot on sight. Barbed Wire, Guard Towers and landmines were placed at a rapid place along the border, gunfire would be heard throughout Berlin for many weeks, until the deterrence had finally worked. Nixon would put NATO forces in Europe on high alert and several Nuclear Missiles were primed on both sides, itching the world ever closer to conflict. Tensions would cool after communication between Nixon and Bulganin however, which led to the creation of the Nuclear Hotline.

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After a mediation by both sides, the United States and Federal Republic of Germany would begrudgingly allow the creation of the Berlin Wall. On one condition however, those Germans who wanted to leave East Germany, would be audited through and allowed to enter the West. Both sides would agree to these terms, with both Germanies promising to enforce their part of the deal. The process of allowed exit would come with a few issues however, Ulbricht and the Stasi kept tabs on everyone leaving the GDR. Through harassment, blackmail or outright murder, he would make sure that those who weren't supposed to leave, didn't,
 
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Algeria Burning
Algeria Burning
"I cannot stop the French from being French." - Charles de Gaulle

By late 1961, Algeria was becoming a quagmire, de Gaulle's fabled referendum had ended in complete failure, with martial law needing to be declared by early June. The situation was deteriorating rapidly and every government official in Paris knew this, what came next however, nobody could have expected. On November 4th, 1961, as de Gaulle left a meeting with Generals to discuss the situation in Algeria, 3 OAS militia members opened fire on de Gaulle, hitting him 23 times across the left side of his body. As de Gaulle collapsed on the side of his motorcade, his security detail quickly fired back at the assassins, killing all 3 after a small gunfight. Afterward, de Gaulle would be taken to a nearby hospital and placed in critical condition, with many expecting he would not survive. Upon hearing the news moments later, the Government would declare a national emergency, forming an interim government until a solution could be found. Prime Minister Michel Debré would be moved to safety, as fears of an OAS attack on Debré were high. During the 2 days of the interim government's existence, the situation in Algeria would explode into chaos, with OAS squadrons rising up and capturing Pied-Noirs areas while the PCA rallied supporters around Constantine. The FLN, seizing the opportunity, would declare a new government with their capital in Annaba, as Algiers remained under French Military control, which scrambled to entrench themselves. Charles de Gaulle's situation would stabilize, though he would remain in a coma, unable to lead, Michel Debré would be sworn in as President of France in his wake.

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The day he would be sworn in, Debré quickly sent a contingency force to secure Algiers and the surrounding areas, which would remain under martial law for the time being. Unable to expand French control any further into Algeria, which was already beginning to look like a warzone, Debré would focus on securing what France still had in the region. Defections were high, with many in Algiers fleeing to join either the OAS or FAF in Oran, or the NLF and PCA in the west.
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Away from the Algerian Chaos, Australia would find itself having another election. The liberals were led by the political giant Robert Menzies, one of Australia's longest serving Prime Ministers and Labor, led by the ideological firebrand Arthur Calwell. Menzies struggled to battle Calwell, who had found support after the sudden unemployment spike and economic recession, which he pinned on the Menzies Government.
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After 12 years of service to Australia, Robert Menzies had finally been dislodged, with Arthur Calwell set to become the next Prime Minister by a majority of one seat. Menzies would announce his retirement as well as his defeat the next morning, leaving the future of the Liberal-Country Coalition up in the air. Calwell's victory would be bittersweet however, with Bruce going to Liberal Protégé Billy Snedden, thanks to the DLP vote. Moreton would go to Labor however, with Jim Killen losing by 100 votes. Calwell would be sworn in as the next Prime Minister of Australia, just in time for the new year.
 
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An Algerian partition that retains French Algiers, if I can infer from the Wikibox? Interesting, can't wait to learn about the "several" states.
 
An Algerian partition that retains French Algiers, if I can infer from the Wikibox? Interesting, can't wait to learn about the "several" states.
bingo, Debré irl defended French Algeria, though he will definitely have an incredibly hard time controlling anything other than Algiers.
 
I have a feeling that the Pieds-Noirs are going to declare independence and create an apartheid state État de séparation.
Many of the Pied-Noirs areas are falling rapidly to OAS control, which are basically their own state in everything but name at this point, but a Pied-Noirs revolt under Front de l'Algérie française is also rapidly expanding in those areas as well.
 
How is Bulganin's regime dealing with the PRC? Will the Sino-Soviet Split still occur as per OTL or is a more hardline leadership in the Kremlin leading to it being a more gradual process?
 
The Red Fist
The Red Fist
In an effort to begin rivaling Western economic and military dominance, Bulganin would order a large expansion to the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance (COMECON), as a large military expenditure into the Warsaw Pact. By February 1962, these expansions would come into effect, with the most prevalent amount of the expansion going into the GDR, which Bulganin would try to form into a functioning self-sufficient socialist state instead of one constantly relying on Soviet aid. Bulganin would also reluctantly aid Ulbricht's idea of the New Economic System, which he would institute the following year officially, replacing Five-Year Plans. Bulganin was growing distant with Ulbricht, usually at odds with the German leader, who would keep asking for soviet aid in many situations. Bulganin's reforms would come at a cost however, the soviet coffers were bleeding dry, and so, a new industrialization project would have to be planned.
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In early 1962, Bulganin would announce the creation of the Siberian Industrialization and Urbanization Committee (SIUC), which the main goal of such would be resource extraction and the industrial buildup of several key areas in Russian Siberia. The areas chosen were mostly along the Urals and the West Siberian Plain, with the Committee beginning operations in the next month. Though process at first would stagnate, soon enough their efforts would bare fruit, giving the Soviet government metric tons of crude oil and raw materials.

Bulganin would also unsurprisingly pledge support for the PCA, the communist force in Algeria, which had made moderate gains following the collapse of order across the region, including the capture of Constantine. On February 23rd, 1962, the Communists would declare the Algerian Socialist Republic, with their capital being seated in the recently captured city of Constantine. In response to this, the NLF would declare their government in Anabas, calling themselves the Algerian National Government. In Oran, the FAF would declare the Oran Free State and encouraged any Pied-Noirs supporters to evacuate to their controlled territory. The OAS would declare themselves the 'French-Algerian Government of National Stability', which would begin to wreck havoc on several areas controlled by the other factions.

While Algeria burned, the fires in Cuba began to finally cease. The DRF would capture several key cities along the southern and northern coasts, with Escambray forces in the countryside fighting a guerilla war against Castro's Government. on February 25th, DRF forces would enter Havana, Castro would give a fiery speech before quickly fleeing once the battle had started, US support would destroy any counterattack capabilities and by the end of the day, Havana was captured. Castro would flee west with several of his supporters, heading into the thick jungle, pledging to fight on for his dream of a socialist Cuba. Though Castro's forces would be a thorn in their side, the DRF could rest easy with the knowledge that they are now back in charge of most of Cuba.
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On February 20th, John Glenn would become the first American to orbit the Earth three times in 4 hours and 55 minutes. Though Gagarin and the Soviets had bested them one year prior, this was still a massive win to the Americans, who felt that they were finally catching up to the Soviet in New Frontier. Upon returning home, Glenn would begin to play with the idea of getting into politics, though this would remain in the back of his mind for now.

Ne Win would lead a coup in Burma, ousting U Nu and organizing Burma into a one party socialist state, with himself at the center. Across the border, Jawaharlal Nehru would be elected for a fourth time in April, with his popularity unmatched by any other politician in the nation. Though Nehru would have his work cut out for him in the next few months, due to tensions rising on the border with China.

Antonio Segni would be elected President of Italy, beating Giuseppe Saragat and bringing the Christian Democracy Party to it's first national election win. The election would be held in a secret ballot, with the chamber of deputies deciding the vote.
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Segni would have to address the growing Algerian crisis in his first term, which was effecting the whole Mediterranean, not just France anymore.


Another nation affected by the chaos in Algeria would be Britain, who was beginning to let go of their colonies, with many demanding a quicker exit, lest they end up like France. Rwanda and Burundi would be given Independence in July, forming their first governments the same day. Later in July, Prime Minister MacMillan would dismiss 1/3rd of his Cabinet and a reshuffle would take place. Most famously, Selwyn Lloyd would be replaced as chancellor of the Exchequer by Reginald Maulding. The dismissal would be mockingly called the 'Night of the Long Knives' by press, who had announced the dismissal before it had taken place. This coincided with several other scandals and the losing of several key areas in by-elections to the Liberals, hurt MacMillan's reputation massively, though this would bounce back somewhat later. Oswald Mosley's Union Movement would also burst onto the political scene after this, with a surprisingly successful march later that month, drawing in several thousand supporters in the process.

By early August, Marilyn Monroe, who had come razor close to losing her life after a drug overdose, would completely 180 over the course of a few months. Monroe would begin to campaign on an expansion of Anti-Drug Laws, calling on Nixon to stop what she called a 'New Crisis' in a speech given in Los Angeles. Monroe would find a surprising friend in that of Ronald Reagan, who was beginning to expand his political clout in the GOP. Nixon would cave into Monroe's calls for Drug laws, signing the Drug Prevention Act in January 1963, which would outline a law that would try to prevent the sale and purchasing of illicit illegal drugs.

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Also in October, the Sino-Indian war would break out, Indian forces would struggle at the start of the conflict, though they would start to make major gains and begin a push into Tibet by December. Quickly on the backfoot, China would sue for peace in January 1963, leaving control of southern Shigaste in Indian hands. As a gesture of goodwill, India would form the Kingdom of Tibet in the region, with the Dali Lama as the head of state. Though nominally independent, Tibet would naturally be dominated by Indian politics, but many still celebrated this victory at home and abroad. China would respond with a massive border force being dispatched to the region, declaring that the "false puppet state of Tibet and their Indian overlords will not impede the People's Revolution!". Nothing would really come of it though, with the Dali Lama returning to Tibet the following week.
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Deleted member 169412

Rhodesia with a French accent?
Probably, yeah.

The question is whether France takes military action against the Pied-Noir state given that it would be in a better position to do so than Britain was against Rhodesia. I'm also not too sure that France will be able to hold all of Algiers given that OTL, white working-class neighbourhoods in Algiers like Bab el-Oued supported the OAS and revolted when it was clear France was going to pull out of Algeria.
 
How is Bulganin's regime dealing with the PRC? Will the Sino-Soviet Split still occur as per OTL or is a more hardline leadership in the Kremlin leading to it being a more gradual process?
Bulganin's relationship with the PRC is definitely better than Khrushchev's, though that isn't really a high bar, as relations still kinda remain lukewarm, as for the Sino-Soviet split, it would probably occur but not to such a degree as OTL where it almost turned hostile.
 
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